OAA employment statistics
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Statistics can prove anything you want them to.
In my opinion, OAA's statistics mearly indicate which airlines recruited their graduates and in what numbers. To try to prove anything else with them is impossible and quite frankly of no use, as they are historical statistics the minute they are released. Nobody knows how many low hour (i.e straight out of training) and experienced pilots are currently unemployed.
If an OAA graduate took 3 years to find employment, then informed OAA that they had found a job, they would appear on the statistics for the year in which they found a job, thus further invalidating the data for statistical purposes.
In my opinion, OAA's statistics mearly indicate which airlines recruited their graduates and in what numbers. To try to prove anything else with them is impossible and quite frankly of no use, as they are historical statistics the minute they are released. Nobody knows how many low hour (i.e straight out of training) and experienced pilots are currently unemployed.
If an OAA graduate took 3 years to find employment, then informed OAA that they had found a job, they would appear on the statistics for the year in which they found a job, thus further invalidating the data for statistical purposes.
LH2, I won't dispute your experience, If true, then I think (in my opinion) you should name the FTO as en example of an "ethical" FTO, however it does not match my own. I have been involved with 2, UK, FTO's, not however employed by them (thank god), as a sort of "poster boy" for them, and have been sent to seminars (Such as the FLYER show recently) and talked to prospective customers. Standing instructions from the management at both were to "talk up" chances of getting a job, and even to utter the hated line "you will find it easier to get a job at the end of it, there is a big retirement push coming up, and the credit crunch will be over by then."
I was only following orders... Didn't wash in Nuremburg, and it doesn't wash (in my conscience) now.
I know the company that I work for now will not look at people with, for want of a better way of putting it, the "Integrated Mentality". People who, when asked in a group to introduce themselves will stand up and say "Joe Bloggs, CP1234" "Jon Bull APP0987". I agree with this decision, as i find these people full of their own worth.
In my (albeit limited) experience, you seem to find that the people that struggle for that first job, that work as an FI, Tug Pilot, Ag Pilot, Para Dropper etc. just seem to be a bit friendlier, a bit more appreciative than those who come through an Integrated RHS Direct route.
Althought as i stated I haven't been involved with OAA in any capacity, I am led to believe that there are around 25-30 people finishing each month.
I was only following orders... Didn't wash in Nuremburg, and it doesn't wash (in my conscience) now.
I know the company that I work for now will not look at people with, for want of a better way of putting it, the "Integrated Mentality". People who, when asked in a group to introduce themselves will stand up and say "Joe Bloggs, CP1234" "Jon Bull APP0987". I agree with this decision, as i find these people full of their own worth.
In my (albeit limited) experience, you seem to find that the people that struggle for that first job, that work as an FI, Tug Pilot, Ag Pilot, Para Dropper etc. just seem to be a bit friendlier, a bit more appreciative than those who come through an Integrated RHS Direct route.
Althought as i stated I haven't been involved with OAA in any capacity, I am led to believe that there are around 25-30 people finishing each month.
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timesreader
Your 25-30 per month has just reminded me.
Actually i think the OAA website in its emplyment stats has written somewhere that since 2007 etc. that 750 graduates have been placed eqauting to 2 a day.
That backs up your 25-30 per month graduating.
In a very approximate way does that mean that circa 90 have grauated to date with 53 getting jobs (from whatever time period). Bearing in mind that of those 53, some may have been on previous courses.
Actually i think the OAA website in its emplyment stats has written somewhere that since 2007 etc. that 750 graduates have been placed eqauting to 2 a day.
That backs up your 25-30 per month graduating.
In a very approximate way does that mean that circa 90 have grauated to date with 53 getting jobs (from whatever time period). Bearing in mind that of those 53, some may have been on previous courses.
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European's Best-Paying Jobs (Top 5)
1. Surgeons ($206,770)
2. Anesthesiologists ($197,570)
3. Orthodontists ($194,930)
4. Obstetrician and gynecologists ($192,780)
5. Oral and maxillofacial surgeons ($190,420)
European's Worst-Paying Jobs (Bottom 5)
1. Combined food-preparation and service workers, ($17,400)
2. Cooks, fast food ($17,620)
3. Dishwashers ($17,750)
4. Dining room/cafeteria attendants, bartender helpers ($18,140)
5. Pilots graduated from Oxford Aviation Academy (OAA) ($18,300)
1. Surgeons ($206,770)
2. Anesthesiologists ($197,570)
3. Orthodontists ($194,930)
4. Obstetrician and gynecologists ($192,780)
5. Oral and maxillofacial surgeons ($190,420)
European's Worst-Paying Jobs (Bottom 5)
1. Combined food-preparation and service workers, ($17,400)
2. Cooks, fast food ($17,620)
3. Dishwashers ($17,750)
4. Dining room/cafeteria attendants, bartender helpers ($18,140)
5. Pilots graduated from Oxford Aviation Academy (OAA) ($18,300)
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As Disraeli once (allegedly) said "There are lies, damned lies and statistics".
Lets see, I run a FTO, have 100 people graduate from my first integrated course:
40 get invited at EasyJet - 17 make it through to the flightdeck
50 get invited at Ryanair - 12 make it through to the flightdeck
10 get invited at Thomson - 2 make it through to the flightdeck
( obviously I didn't train them well it seems
)Still, out of 100, 31 got a job in the end, BUT - my FTO has a 100 % PLACEMENT RATE
Bend them how you want, statistics are most of the times not worth it.
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Very good dartagnan, very good, that must have taken a while.
Apologies for the late reply. The FTN statistics I mentioned are printed within the publication, graphs and pie charts galore with ATPL, CPL issues etc.
I finished my MCC in december had 2 job offers by January. Most of the Oxford students I finished with have gone to Ryanair. Very few didn't get in, some already had sponsored jobs to fill and others did not want the TR cost ball and chain.
All the while Ryanair are piping about the low the assessment success rate is at the moment.
Regards
CR
Apologies for the late reply. The FTN statistics I mentioned are printed within the publication, graphs and pie charts galore with ATPL, CPL issues etc.
I finished my MCC in december had 2 job offers by January. Most of the Oxford students I finished with have gone to Ryanair. Very few didn't get in, some already had sponsored jobs to fill and others did not want the TR cost ball and chain.
All the while Ryanair are piping about the low the assessment success rate is at the moment.
Regards
CR
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Rossco,
Your stats are interesting, and it seems to prove that things change month on month. If I can guess your end date, my course at OAA is 2 months ahead of yours. Of 9 interviewed by RYR, only 3 got in.
Wally.
Your stats are interesting, and it seems to prove that things change month on month. If I can guess your end date, my course at OAA is 2 months ahead of yours. Of 9 interviewed by RYR, only 3 got in.
Wally.
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This argument is never ending but I had to rise to the bait again.....
For every story about some tin pot airline that won't take Oxford cadets there are many major ones (who you probably would prefer to work for anyway) who do, and who often prefer integrated cadets. BA take almost all cadets from FTE and Oxford, Jet2 have signed an exclusive deal with Oxford, FlyBe are sponsoring at the moment, NetJets is ongoing.....
There's nothing wrong with modular students but to say that going to Oxford puts you at a disadvantage is simply not true.
Also, don't get too obsessed with employment statistics. You are not a statistic, you are an individual. Make sure you work really hard and are towards the top of your course, and if you are an impressive, motivated, well rounded individual who's good at assessments and interviews, then it doesn't matter if only 10% are getting jobs so long as YOU are in that 10%!
For every story about some tin pot airline that won't take Oxford cadets there are many major ones (who you probably would prefer to work for anyway) who do, and who often prefer integrated cadets. BA take almost all cadets from FTE and Oxford, Jet2 have signed an exclusive deal with Oxford, FlyBe are sponsoring at the moment, NetJets is ongoing.....
There's nothing wrong with modular students but to say that going to Oxford puts you at a disadvantage is simply not true.
Also, don't get too obsessed with employment statistics. You are not a statistic, you are an individual. Make sure you work really hard and are towards the top of your course, and if you are an impressive, motivated, well rounded individual who's good at assessments and interviews, then it doesn't matter if only 10% are getting jobs so long as YOU are in that 10%!
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Well the tin pot airlines are the ones that are going to be hiring and the legacy ones are asking for voluntary reducancy.
The last two airlines I have worked for have recruited at least 7 low houred FO's in the last year with a fleet of less than 10 aircraft. None of them would take an integrated pilot while my arse is still hairy. H'mm thats 14 jobs for a fleet of 14 aircraft and with BA fleet of .... they can manage 36 in the last year? And you don't get to fly visual approaches in BA. Burrp burrp auto out at 200 ft that ain't being a pilot.
BA is fecked they are asking for voluntary redundancy.
BMI is taking paying cadets for line training.
Integrated trained FI's are seen as the blind leading the blind in flight instruction.
RYR will take you money for 500 hours, bit of a **** when you though you had payed your 70K for a BA job but hey ho whats another 30k to pay to fly.
Good luck chaps
The last two airlines I have worked for have recruited at least 7 low houred FO's in the last year with a fleet of less than 10 aircraft. None of them would take an integrated pilot while my arse is still hairy. H'mm thats 14 jobs for a fleet of 14 aircraft and with BA fleet of .... they can manage 36 in the last year? And you don't get to fly visual approaches in BA. Burrp burrp auto out at 200 ft that ain't being a pilot.
BA is fecked they are asking for voluntary redundancy.
BMI is taking paying cadets for line training.
Integrated trained FI's are seen as the blind leading the blind in flight instruction.
RYR will take you money for 500 hours, bit of a **** when you though you had payed your 70K for a BA job but hey ho whats another 30k to pay to fly.
Good luck chaps
Last edited by mad_jock; 13th May 2009 at 03:42.
While i agree the debate is never ending, I would challenge what propellerhead implies about how Oxford / Integrated schools give you an advantage.
BA only take low houred cadets from Oxford (
) and to get that you have to be in the top 5, grade wise, consistently of your class at OAA, AND pass an application / interview process with BA AND then they have to decide that they want you.
FlyBE are sponsoring at both Integrated and Modular Schools.
NetJets sponsor their own cadets, who train at Oxford. Not necessarily the same as an Oxford Integrated cadet.
I am not saying that Oxford puts you at a disadvantage. Merely that, in my opinion, there is no particular advantage.
And the "Tin Pot" airline I fly for has never been busier. Our Chief Pilot wouldnt take an integrated pilot "as long as (his) arse has a hole in it". FlyBE will take integrated Cadets. Ryanair will take anyone with an fATPL, £28k and enough nouce to get through a sim course.
Could it be that the reason for the never ending "which is best: integrated or modular?" debate is that there is really very little difference, except for a lot of money and a percieved superiority?
BA only take low houred cadets from Oxford (
) and to get that you have to be in the top 5, grade wise, consistently of your class at OAA, AND pass an application / interview process with BA AND then they have to decide that they want you. FlyBE are sponsoring at both Integrated and Modular Schools.
NetJets sponsor their own cadets, who train at Oxford. Not necessarily the same as an Oxford Integrated cadet.
I am not saying that Oxford puts you at a disadvantage. Merely that, in my opinion, there is no particular advantage.
And the "Tin Pot" airline I fly for has never been busier. Our Chief Pilot wouldnt take an integrated pilot "as long as (his) arse has a hole in it". FlyBE will take integrated Cadets. Ryanair will take anyone with an fATPL, £28k and enough nouce to get through a sim course.
Could it be that the reason for the never ending "which is best: integrated or modular?" debate is that there is really very little difference, except for a lot of money and a percieved superiority?
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I find it absolutely incredible, that anyone who is otherwise blessed with a normal intellect can actually, really, claim that either method of training produces superior or inferior pilots. Further I find it incredibly disturbing that these same, otherwise intelligent people would perpetuate that level of BS career wise.
Bottom line: There are plenty of integrated grads who aren't great flyers, because they spent all their time on the juice in Arizona, because they just got 'daddy' to pay for it, cos they just don't have the aptitude, cos, cos, cos.... Then there are plenty who are excellent pilots and have been trained in a structured manner, that ensures EVERY flight has a learning objective. Plenty who used the massive resources of an integrated school to learn as much as they can, plenty who became the best they could be (considering the hours they have)
Likewise, there are plenty of modular students who pissed around in the deserts, flying from one place to another, without actually having a learning objective, or practicing skills - just burning holes. There are plenty of Modular who paid using daddys money, there are plenty of modulars who just aren't that good. Then there are plenty who are bloody brilliant, who did everything they could, who used resources available to them and so on and so on.
The fact is the quality of the pilot is not dictated by the method of training. Anyone who is so insecure in themselves as a person or as a pilot as to need to try and discredit any other pilot based only on their training method should be ashamed. Very ashamed. It says lots about the lack of professionalism of the person.
And before someone says "and that applies to BA only taking integrated as well, does it?" Well yes, if their only reason is because "integrated are better trained". I suspect their reasons are more to do with "known quality of training and it's a handy way of cutting down otherwise endless applicants". It IS as valid to only accept mod students, but I highly doubt you can have a good idea of the standards of ALL mod students (rather than from a particular school) in the same way.
People wonder why this industry is going down the pan - this crap attitude is a good place to start.
Bottom line: There are plenty of integrated grads who aren't great flyers, because they spent all their time on the juice in Arizona, because they just got 'daddy' to pay for it, cos they just don't have the aptitude, cos, cos, cos.... Then there are plenty who are excellent pilots and have been trained in a structured manner, that ensures EVERY flight has a learning objective. Plenty who used the massive resources of an integrated school to learn as much as they can, plenty who became the best they could be (considering the hours they have)
Likewise, there are plenty of modular students who pissed around in the deserts, flying from one place to another, without actually having a learning objective, or practicing skills - just burning holes. There are plenty of Modular who paid using daddys money, there are plenty of modulars who just aren't that good. Then there are plenty who are bloody brilliant, who did everything they could, who used resources available to them and so on and so on.
The fact is the quality of the pilot is not dictated by the method of training. Anyone who is so insecure in themselves as a person or as a pilot as to need to try and discredit any other pilot based only on their training method should be ashamed. Very ashamed. It says lots about the lack of professionalism of the person.
And before someone says "and that applies to BA only taking integrated as well, does it?" Well yes, if their only reason is because "integrated are better trained". I suspect their reasons are more to do with "known quality of training and it's a handy way of cutting down otherwise endless applicants". It IS as valid to only accept mod students, but I highly doubt you can have a good idea of the standards of ALL mod students (rather than from a particular school) in the same way.
People wonder why this industry is going down the pan - this crap attitude is a good place to start.
Rex Banner - I was told by a friend (who completed OAA integrated last year) that that is OAA's criteria for putting forward prospective BA cadets, i.e. top 5 in class regularly. I will, however stand corrected.
BA only take low houred guys from integrated courses only as they have had significant numbers of training failures from modular candidates. As Clanger 32 said, it also allows them to cut down on numbers. I fear how many letters BA must get saying "i wanna be a piiiilotttt"
BA only take low houred guys from integrated courses only as they have had significant numbers of training failures from modular candidates. As Clanger 32 said, it also allows them to cut down on numbers. I fear how many letters BA must get saying "i wanna be a piiiilotttt"
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If BA took the top five from every class, they'd have hired over 60 per year from OAA instead of more like 35. The question is not who do they take, but who do they interview. The answer is a heck of a lot more than 60 per year, when they were interviewing, so I think Rex is closer to the truth. Why let truth end a good debate on the rumour mill though?
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They could put forward biggles for all it's worth. It doesn't matter.
BA are not recruiting and this is not likely to change any time soon.
BA are not recruiting and this is not likely to change any time soon.