Is Cabair going to stay alive?
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Originally Posted by G-RICH
Didn't AST up in Perth withdraw from training Commercial Pilots some time back ? I know they concentrated on the engineering side and may well re-enter the market in future. Shows it can be done.
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Steve
Your post was integrated into this larger longer thread, it originally appeared by itself. I accept the point made graciously, obviously there is no smoke without fire, and this situation looks as bad as it can be without a formal declaration of insolvency, so in that sense I hope you will accept an apology.
Over the years though, individuals have popped up with similar "rumours" regarding various businesses in the aviation sector most of which proved to be without foundation, but undoubtedly tarnished the target company for a while.
That is why I asked for the source of your information.
I hope for everybody's sake a workable solution can be found !
Over the years though, individuals have popped up with similar "rumours" regarding various businesses in the aviation sector most of which proved to be without foundation, but undoubtedly tarnished the target company for a while.
That is why I asked for the source of your information.
I hope for everybody's sake a workable solution can be found !
The offer of an on the spot £10k discount did not reassure - to be honest,
The bank probably saw this and said "Hey! You've just given away a million quid! You're having a laugh, mate!" - and pulled the plug.
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Gengis
The "cultural divide" at EGTC that you refer to is absolutely the case, or certainly was when last there and observed over many previous years.
I found this rather odd : As a product of Kidlington some 20 years back, there were the airline sponsored guys & girls who wore blue trousers/white shirt during business hours, and the privateers who dressed as they pleased, but that was the only observable social and professional difference, we were all there with the same goal, and from a very diverse aviation gene pool.
Perhaps this is all part of the 0-ATPL thing, there is no gene pool, just a product for the PTF industry.
I found this rather odd : As a product of Kidlington some 20 years back, there were the airline sponsored guys & girls who wore blue trousers/white shirt during business hours, and the privateers who dressed as they pleased, but that was the only observable social and professional difference, we were all there with the same goal, and from a very diverse aviation gene pool.
Perhaps this is all part of the 0-ATPL thing, there is no gene pool, just a product for the PTF industry.
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I would say the "cultural difference" is even encouraged by the school in a subconscious way to the students. It makes them feel "privileged" or "special"
(I know my word choice will upset some but I can't think of more appropriate words right now but my point is got across) - which is part of making them believe that what they are paying for is worth the money.
Have you ever noticed when any of the big integrated schools have problems - which they do just like every other school - there doesn't seem to be any of their students vocal about them - they're almost robotically loyal to the school.
I think it's become one of the only ways as in recent year the output from the quality of output from the integrated schools has declined and the job market has become more level between modular and integrated and the price disparity seems to have got wider.
(I know my word choice will upset some but I can't think of more appropriate words right now but my point is got across) - which is part of making them believe that what they are paying for is worth the money.
Have you ever noticed when any of the big integrated schools have problems - which they do just like every other school - there doesn't seem to be any of their students vocal about them - they're almost robotically loyal to the school.
I think it's become one of the only ways as in recent year the output from the quality of output from the integrated schools has declined and the job market has become more level between modular and integrated and the price disparity seems to have got wider.
Have you ever noticed when any of the big integrated schools have problems - which they do just like every other school - there doesn't seem to be any of their students vocal about them - they're almost robotically loyal to the school.
Any developments today anyone feels like sharing?
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Warning signs have been on for a few years now
I was at Cabair during 2009/2010 and it was aparent even then that the company was having difficulties. With the onset of the recession they were looking to reduce courses from 6 a year to 4 due to reduction in students applying. They were also looking to lay off groundschool instructors. After opening up a training base in Florida which was cheaper to operate from they then talked about closing their spanish base and doing more training over in the US to save money. At the same time flying instructors were having their pay changed from being salaried to hourly causing some instructors to jump ship. There was further restructuring and 'streamlining' going on in the office staff aswel.
The general way that the company treated it's customers, particularly with regards to finances, showed some amount of desperation in my opinion. Customer service and the way the company kept moving the goal posts was less than professional. A few times they approached us asking for more money. Not to mention the changes in training structure that were not agreed in the initial contract. The product we had paid for kept changing and the previously agreed fees kept going up for no apparent reasons. They were never forthcomming in explaining why and no training contracts were reissued as a result either. All somewhat dodgy if you ask me and reaking of bad business and financial problems. I believe that earlier on this year new investors took over the company but to no avail it seems.
I think that the unproffesional way the company treated customers with regards to the *huge* sums of money they have paid was a sign of bad business and bad customer service. As a student it felt like being treated like children quibbling over pocket-money, not customers 'investing' their hard earned life savings. On that note, I think the fact that half the students came from a part of the world where £60k was mere pocket-money and were purely 'buying' their little blue book contributed to this attitude. Maybe had Cabair been more honest with students about finances etc there would have been less 'quibbling' in the first place. I don't mind a sudden increase in fees as long as I'm given the honest reason for it.
There was talk that buying a fleet of Diamond aircraft did them no favours either. The Diamonds incured unforseen costs with regards to parts and maintenance after the engine manufacturer went bust making parts hard to find - so Cabair bought all available parts they could find anywhere...just aswel because they weren't the most reliable aircraft.
So back in '09 the early warning signs were already flashing. We could all see it. It's a shame really as they have the potential to be up there with the rest of the FTOs if they just sorted out their customer service and training consistency. All the ground and flying instructors were good people that kept it all going but it was the fundamental business handling side that was flawed. Less money-grabbing and more customer service would turn the place around! Granted, the company appeared not be making enough money to cover things, maybe a victim of the recession, who knows, but since all other FTOs seems to be doing ok there must be some fundamental reason why they've got into this corner.
I hope that someone invests in them and turns things around. The assets are salvagable, just get someone in there to tighten up the business end. I think there is still plenty of potential in Cabair and I wish all the current staff and students all the best. Hope it works out.
As for the comments on 'cultural divide', I don't really see this as relevent. Show me a FTO that doesn't think it's something else from the GA world. Personally it gave me a sense of purpose- I wasn't some PPL student at a local flying club, but on a dedicated training program to develop my future career. But yes, I do see your point. Anyway, not really relevent to the Cabair situation.
The general way that the company treated it's customers, particularly with regards to finances, showed some amount of desperation in my opinion. Customer service and the way the company kept moving the goal posts was less than professional. A few times they approached us asking for more money. Not to mention the changes in training structure that were not agreed in the initial contract. The product we had paid for kept changing and the previously agreed fees kept going up for no apparent reasons. They were never forthcomming in explaining why and no training contracts were reissued as a result either. All somewhat dodgy if you ask me and reaking of bad business and financial problems. I believe that earlier on this year new investors took over the company but to no avail it seems.
I think that the unproffesional way the company treated customers with regards to the *huge* sums of money they have paid was a sign of bad business and bad customer service. As a student it felt like being treated like children quibbling over pocket-money, not customers 'investing' their hard earned life savings. On that note, I think the fact that half the students came from a part of the world where £60k was mere pocket-money and were purely 'buying' their little blue book contributed to this attitude. Maybe had Cabair been more honest with students about finances etc there would have been less 'quibbling' in the first place. I don't mind a sudden increase in fees as long as I'm given the honest reason for it.
There was talk that buying a fleet of Diamond aircraft did them no favours either. The Diamonds incured unforseen costs with regards to parts and maintenance after the engine manufacturer went bust making parts hard to find - so Cabair bought all available parts they could find anywhere...just aswel because they weren't the most reliable aircraft.
So back in '09 the early warning signs were already flashing. We could all see it. It's a shame really as they have the potential to be up there with the rest of the FTOs if they just sorted out their customer service and training consistency. All the ground and flying instructors were good people that kept it all going but it was the fundamental business handling side that was flawed. Less money-grabbing and more customer service would turn the place around! Granted, the company appeared not be making enough money to cover things, maybe a victim of the recession, who knows, but since all other FTOs seems to be doing ok there must be some fundamental reason why they've got into this corner.
I hope that someone invests in them and turns things around. The assets are salvagable, just get someone in there to tighten up the business end. I think there is still plenty of potential in Cabair and I wish all the current staff and students all the best. Hope it works out.
As for the comments on 'cultural divide', I don't really see this as relevent. Show me a FTO that doesn't think it's something else from the GA world. Personally it gave me a sense of purpose- I wasn't some PPL student at a local flying club, but on a dedicated training program to develop my future career. But yes, I do see your point. Anyway, not really relevent to the Cabair situation.
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As an ex-cabair student myself I can tell you that most of the students, and staff were openly vocal about the dislike of the school, especially about the way it was run from the top. We were told lies from day one, I am quite happy to share a few of the issues we all came across;
- Fuel surcharges were slapped on from the early days of the economic doom and continued despite the price of fuel dropping. (up to £12 an hour extra income)
- Countless arguments (some quite public) amongst CFIs and FIs regarding standards which was supposed to be standardised but seldom were.
- When you finished the course, depending on how many hours you over flew, the amount you paid was 'negotiable' with the Manager. Some paid a lot more than others did, so where that money went for a 1 hour flight you did a year ago no one knows.
- A certain member of staff who dealt with interviews and course deposits was sacked for some alleged money movements
- We were assured we would be taught the ground school element of our course in the new university business park. Never happened to this day and all of the classes were told in decripid cold damn porta-cabins.
- And the bit that always makes me laugh, I knew quite a few students who didn't pass the entrance exams, namely the science and maths tests, and were given the papers to take home and post back....
IMO - the one side of things that the students certainly felt uncertain of was the non-flying management. They were either unavailable to talk to you, or when they did, spouted a load of BS.
In regards to the uniform element, I think perhaps that is the only element of doing an integrated course that is beneficial. You are living in the environment together, doing your training etc, and it gets you into the mindset of what you are trying to achieve. The benefit ends there though, because when you are flushed out the other end, without the after course support they lie about, the non-existant recommendations, and the absence of useful airline contacts, you are back down on planet earth with a bang. We all saw it coming. I feel sorry for some of the staff who were a good bunch in a bad outfit. I'm not looking for any sympathy, I've realised my mistakes and I paid for them heavily, it looks like many others have done the same too.
- Fuel surcharges were slapped on from the early days of the economic doom and continued despite the price of fuel dropping. (up to £12 an hour extra income)
- Countless arguments (some quite public) amongst CFIs and FIs regarding standards which was supposed to be standardised but seldom were.
- When you finished the course, depending on how many hours you over flew, the amount you paid was 'negotiable' with the Manager. Some paid a lot more than others did, so where that money went for a 1 hour flight you did a year ago no one knows.
- A certain member of staff who dealt with interviews and course deposits was sacked for some alleged money movements
- We were assured we would be taught the ground school element of our course in the new university business park. Never happened to this day and all of the classes were told in decripid cold damn porta-cabins.
- And the bit that always makes me laugh, I knew quite a few students who didn't pass the entrance exams, namely the science and maths tests, and were given the papers to take home and post back....
IMO - the one side of things that the students certainly felt uncertain of was the non-flying management. They were either unavailable to talk to you, or when they did, spouted a load of BS.
In regards to the uniform element, I think perhaps that is the only element of doing an integrated course that is beneficial. You are living in the environment together, doing your training etc, and it gets you into the mindset of what you are trying to achieve. The benefit ends there though, because when you are flushed out the other end, without the after course support they lie about, the non-existant recommendations, and the absence of useful airline contacts, you are back down on planet earth with a bang. We all saw it coming. I feel sorry for some of the staff who were a good bunch in a bad outfit. I'm not looking for any sympathy, I've realised my mistakes and I paid for them heavily, it looks like many others have done the same too.
I Have Control
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And....
Just to balance things, as a privateer at Oxford almost 15 years ago, it was a dishonest place as regards management and money. They were thieves. The flight instructors and standards were good and consistent. <groundschool....ahem...arrogant. But they opened my eyes to the double standards that exist in aviation flight training. Sounds like the same at ex-Cabair
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Absolutely spot on with all that flyingguy1984 (can see a lot of similarities there with my own experience).
The biggest shame about Cabair is that they had all the elements in place to be right up there with the other CPL providers, good ground school (the CGI runs (or ran maybe depending what happens) a very tight ship - I know they had just invested in IPads to enhance the learning experience), a modern fleet of aircraft (with the appropriate sims) and some approachable/knowledgable/friendly flight instructors (with the exception of one particular (in my opinion) detestable character). The problem really boils down to management (or lack of) and the consistent lying/false promises that are made paricularly as Flyingguy1984 touched upon with regards to recommendations/useful flying contacts. The majority of us that went through the course weren't stupid and knew the market was tough when we finished but seemingly no effort appears to be made by the management to form any sort of useful links to the various operators either home or abroad and I think this is the kind of major mismanagement (coupled I'm sure to many other factors) which will have lost the school countless numbers of students over the years.
The biggest shame about Cabair is that they had all the elements in place to be right up there with the other CPL providers, good ground school (the CGI runs (or ran maybe depending what happens) a very tight ship - I know they had just invested in IPads to enhance the learning experience), a modern fleet of aircraft (with the appropriate sims) and some approachable/knowledgable/friendly flight instructors (with the exception of one particular (in my opinion) detestable character). The problem really boils down to management (or lack of) and the consistent lying/false promises that are made paricularly as Flyingguy1984 touched upon with regards to recommendations/useful flying contacts. The majority of us that went through the course weren't stupid and knew the market was tough when we finished but seemingly no effort appears to be made by the management to form any sort of useful links to the various operators either home or abroad and I think this is the kind of major mismanagement (coupled I'm sure to many other factors) which will have lost the school countless numbers of students over the years.
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So does anyone know what is happening down in Bournemouth?? As a former Cabair/EPTA student I'm curious to know whats happening down there as I've seen Cranfield mentioned a lot on here but not much for Bournemouth. I have a friend who runs accommodation for pilots down in Bournemouth. They had a Cabair flight instructor staying with them, but he has apparently gone back home to wherever he lives as he hasn't been paid in over a month. It doesn't sound good. Would be interested to know if anyone has anymore info on the situation at EGHH??
Just emphasising, this is rumour, not verified fact.
G
More important than the purchase price, which auditors were contracted to carry out due diligence, and what does the contract say about concealed liabilities - I smell lawyers..............
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Interesting point from Fitter2; what was the appeal to the new owners in the first place?
Either they:
A) were incredibly stupid to buy a business that has demonstrated its inability to flourish. Hubris knows no bounds.
or
B) have an eye for a business to be stripped and binned, damn the consequences to human and/or physical assets. See the Rover takeover.
Until the law on business ownership and what rights the new owner has to disburse the monies changes, Cabaire (sic) will flourish within a couple of weeks. Then may be the time to sign up and get the qualifications as fast as you can before the next 'Dear John...' letter does the rounds.
Plus ça change (plus c'est la même chose). Time for decent regulation!
Either they:
A) were incredibly stupid to buy a business that has demonstrated its inability to flourish. Hubris knows no bounds.
or
B) have an eye for a business to be stripped and binned, damn the consequences to human and/or physical assets. See the Rover takeover.
Until the law on business ownership and what rights the new owner has to disburse the monies changes, Cabaire (sic) will flourish within a couple of weeks. Then may be the time to sign up and get the qualifications as fast as you can before the next 'Dear John...' letter does the rounds.
Plus ça change (plus c'est la même chose). Time for decent regulation!
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BIG Nick
Apparently there is now only one Instructor left at EGHH - the CFI. The ops guy was finished recently and you are correct about the other flying instructors - no pay no work. This school charges students by payment upfront so theoretically there should funds to pay them. With no serviceable multi engine aircraft and the PA28's disabled by wheel removal there is no training happening at present anyway! The Ground School is operating normally but the flying students are waiting for some sort of resolution as they still have money tied up and cannot move on - what a horrid situation to be in. EPTA is at two locations and I am told there appears to be no interest in helping out the Bournemouth students by the other branch at Wycombe - charming!!
So it doesn't look good frankly. Obviously there is a large mess to sort out if it were to ever get going again - perhaps it might but who knows - don't hold your breath.
Please note that this info is from sources at both locations and may or may not be correct so don't shoot the messenger!
So it doesn't look good frankly. Obviously there is a large mess to sort out if it were to ever get going again - perhaps it might but who knows - don't hold your breath.
Please note that this info is from sources at both locations and may or may not be correct so don't shoot the messenger!
Last edited by PPRuNeUser0173; 19th Oct 2011 at 20:05.
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Cabair International Aviation
Just heard that this previously non-trading company is being activated.
After an agreement in principle with the CAA, an application for approval to conduct Modular/Integrated training out of Cranfield is to be made shortly.
Former CCAT staff seem to be involved, rewriting manuals and course material. I understand CIA may take-over some if not all of the liabilities.
Would be great if that meant the staff get paid their September pay and students can recommence.
Apparently CCAT had a potential November intake of 22. A few of these allegedly are still keen to go ahead. Someone in CCAT with a moral compass
has advised them not to pay up until the sitrep is positive.
Hope CIA pull it off. In any case well done for keeping the ball rolling.
A supporter!
After an agreement in principle with the CAA, an application for approval to conduct Modular/Integrated training out of Cranfield is to be made shortly.
Former CCAT staff seem to be involved, rewriting manuals and course material. I understand CIA may take-over some if not all of the liabilities.
Would be great if that meant the staff get paid their September pay and students can recommence.
Apparently CCAT had a potential November intake of 22. A few of these allegedly are still keen to go ahead. Someone in CCAT with a moral compass
has advised them not to pay up until the sitrep is positive.
Hope CIA pull it off. In any case well done for keeping the ball rolling.
A supporter!
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As long as there are gullible people out there, the likes of Cabair will continue, and no doubt CIA will go the same way as CCAT, because nothing ever changes.
The CAA will be no help in this either. As long as they get their fees from inspecting and approving providers why should they deter any outfit from coming forward for approval.
As an organisation nay regulator that depends on customers for survival I would even hazzard a suggestion that the CAA would not discourage applications.
So just because the CAA are involved it does not mean that all is pucka.
The CAA will be no help in this either. As long as they get their fees from inspecting and approving providers why should they deter any outfit from coming forward for approval.
As an organisation nay regulator that depends on customers for survival I would even hazzard a suggestion that the CAA would not discourage applications.
So just because the CAA are involved it does not mean that all is pucka.
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As an organisation nay regulator that depends on customers for survival I would even hazzard a suggestion that the CAA would not discourage applications.
Former CCAT staff seem to be involved, rewriting manuals and course material.
Waste of space. If you're going to regulate, do it properly. Time for change.
If you're going to regulate, do it properly.
Individual company finances have nothing to do with the CAA. Why should the CAA get involved in this area?