Is Cabair going to stay alive?
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 348
Likes: 3
IF it indeed turns out to be the case that Cabair has stopped operating, may I offer my sincere condolances to the staff and the students.
It must be a very difficult time for you all and I hope a happy ending is just around the corner.
However.......have a think. One of the UK's biggest and long standing flight school is having problems....and what does that tell you.
LH are trying to sell off bmi, who knows if they will survive. It does not look good for them.
TCX are reducing fleet size and the IT market is in decline.
Air Berlin are reducing there fleet.
Europe and the United States rocking on the precipce of recession or much worse. A planned forfit by the Greeks is begining to look a certanty.
In my humble opinion, dont spend another penny on flight training. There will not be any jobs....
The very very best of luck to all those possibly effected. and most of all, best of luck to cabair. I pray this is all sorted out and soon for you all.
And when you get those licences, even more look to you finding a job. You are really going to neded it.
It must be a very difficult time for you all and I hope a happy ending is just around the corner.
However.......have a think. One of the UK's biggest and long standing flight school is having problems....and what does that tell you.
LH are trying to sell off bmi, who knows if they will survive. It does not look good for them.
TCX are reducing fleet size and the IT market is in decline.
Air Berlin are reducing there fleet.
Europe and the United States rocking on the precipce of recession or much worse. A planned forfit by the Greeks is begining to look a certanty.
In my humble opinion, dont spend another penny on flight training. There will not be any jobs....
The very very best of luck to all those possibly effected. and most of all, best of luck to cabair. I pray this is all sorted out and soon for you all.
And when you get those licences, even more look to you finding a job. You are really going to neded it.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
From: Neither Here Nor There
Look at the costs involved in running a training fleet.
The certification costs alone (as imposed by EASA) are preposterous; these are also felt by the maintenance companies, which have to pass them on to the end user.
Then look at the costs of fuel and staff wages.
Admittedly, Cabair ran (past tense!) Diamond aircraft using Jet-A but following the demise of Thielert and the engine warranties, the cost of maintaining those engines shot up.
To stay competitive you have to charge as little as possible.
I'm sure there will be more to this than meets the eye but am I really surprised this has happened?
The certification costs alone (as imposed by EASA) are preposterous; these are also felt by the maintenance companies, which have to pass them on to the end user.
Then look at the costs of fuel and staff wages.
Admittedly, Cabair ran (past tense!) Diamond aircraft using Jet-A but following the demise of Thielert and the engine warranties, the cost of maintaining those engines shot up.
To stay competitive you have to charge as little as possible.
I'm sure there will be more to this than meets the eye but am I really surprised this has happened?
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: Manchester
At Cranfield on the ATPL side things were looking up, by all accounts student numbers were much bigger, the aftercare was much improved with FL500 taking care of that, and a 737 sim at Cranebank was being phased in for the JOC/MCC training not to mention the Ipad's for groundschool. There were plans to improve the facilities as well.
It looked to me that under the new ownership things were really starting to look much better so I really hope that this is indeed just a blip. I can imagine Flybe have a vested interest in not seeing Cabair go under and I wouldnt be suprised if the integrated ATPL part of Cabair are saved somehow but the rest of cabair broken up. How this would work in reality I dont know, must be a bit of a financial nightmare.
It looked to me that under the new ownership things were really starting to look much better so I really hope that this is indeed just a blip. I can imagine Flybe have a vested interest in not seeing Cabair go under and I wouldnt be suprised if the integrated ATPL part of Cabair are saved somehow but the rest of cabair broken up. How this would work in reality I dont know, must be a bit of a financial nightmare.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: London
I was down at cranfield yesterday morning. I was meant to take my inital assessment but when I got there I was told to take a seat. About 20 minutes later, a staff member came up to me and said that no one was available to carry out the test and that I shall be contacted by cabair to re-arrange and that they were sorry about the cancellation.
The interesting part is that when I got there, the current ground school cadets were outside talking about bankrupcy and who would take over their contracts.
Now I only heard part of the conversation so it may not have been about cabair.
The interesting part is that when I got there, the current ground school cadets were outside talking about bankrupcy and who would take over their contracts.
Now I only heard part of the conversation so it may not have been about cabair.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: Manchester
It's admirable that other flying schools are offering to help. It shows the best of the aviation industry.
I will try and distribute both your messages (Bristol, Aeros) via the various channels. I.e. facebook groups.
Although it's not yet clear exactly what is happening at Cabair at this moment in time.
I will try and distribute both your messages (Bristol, Aeros) via the various channels. I.e. facebook groups.
Although it's not yet clear exactly what is happening at Cabair at this moment in time.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
From: UK
A message of support from Padpilot
The message for the moment - at least for those in the ground school phase is don't panic.
Continue using Padpilot and study at home until the situation is resolved. The system is designed for distance learning as well as the classroom. Take the opportunity for a couple of weeks of "self study" in comfortable surroundings.
If you wish to have free access to the Padpilot IMRS system so that you can take progress tests and continue with your supervised studies then please contact Jill on 01452 728 100 ([email protected]). We can have you up and running on the system within the hour.
Once Cabair are back in operations we'll simply transfer your test results back to them so that you can continue as normal.
Graham Cownie
Managing Director, Padpilot
Continue using Padpilot and study at home until the situation is resolved. The system is designed for distance learning as well as the classroom. Take the opportunity for a couple of weeks of "self study" in comfortable surroundings.
If you wish to have free access to the Padpilot IMRS system so that you can take progress tests and continue with your supervised studies then please contact Jill on 01452 728 100 ([email protected]). We can have you up and running on the system within the hour.
Once Cabair are back in operations we'll simply transfer your test results back to them so that you can continue as normal.
Graham Cownie
Managing Director, Padpilot
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: EGGW
If you check my post earlier, I think you'll find is an accurate account of the situation at cabair. Was back there today doing prep for my first exam along with my mock. There was an investor presentation taking place, no further news. But hopefully next week I'll be getting some feedback.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 51
Likes: 16
From: London
As I understand it, Cabair are concentrating on commercial training from now on so are closing their smaller flying schools.
Some of these have been taken over by private concerns. I know Elstree has, and the new school is in the same building, with the same instructors, not sure about the part timers - they're just waiting for the aircraft to come across from other airfields over the next day or two.
I hear Biggin Hill also has someone reopening the school.
Good luck to everyone affected.
Some of these have been taken over by private concerns. I know Elstree has, and the new school is in the same building, with the same instructors, not sure about the part timers - they're just waiting for the aircraft to come across from other airfields over the next day or two.
I hear Biggin Hill also has someone reopening the school.
Good luck to everyone affected.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 51
Likes: 16
From: London
And also reading this gives you a clearer idea of their intentions:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...rnational.html
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...rnational.html
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: essex,UK
Investor?
Now let's look at this from an investor's point of view.
Why would I want to put my hard earned money into a company that is/has/on the verge of bankruptcy? approximately £1.8M is the short fall to bring it back to zero and no cash flow, so lets call it £3M.
Repayment as a "loan" over 10 years at 5% is a repayment of £30k per month, over and above the operating loss that got the company into this position; also the money paid by students already will inevitably been used to keep them afloat until now; another large and probably unaccounted for sum of money.
Doesn't really say much for the recent "investor" whose due diligence was so bad in the first place that they missed the Black Hole and now they are running the business, or not as the case maybe.
So I give £3M to a company whose management structure has driven it into the ground and could not add up to start with, and wait for my return over 10 years? If it lasts that long...hmmm!!
Huge downside and no upside, as the Dragons would say, I'm out!
Better chance on the National Lottery!
Why would I want to put my hard earned money into a company that is/has/on the verge of bankruptcy? approximately £1.8M is the short fall to bring it back to zero and no cash flow, so lets call it £3M.
Repayment as a "loan" over 10 years at 5% is a repayment of £30k per month, over and above the operating loss that got the company into this position; also the money paid by students already will inevitably been used to keep them afloat until now; another large and probably unaccounted for sum of money.
Doesn't really say much for the recent "investor" whose due diligence was so bad in the first place that they missed the Black Hole and now they are running the business, or not as the case maybe.
So I give £3M to a company whose management structure has driven it into the ground and could not add up to start with, and wait for my return over 10 years? If it lasts that long...hmmm!!
Huge downside and no upside, as the Dragons would say, I'm out!
Better chance on the National Lottery!
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,479
Likes: 178
From: UK
It's interesting to consider how this is going to affect the UK light aviation community. Here are some thoughts I have:
(1) With a lot of instructors looking for work, newly qualified instructors will now find it extremely hard to get any work.
(2) Remaining commercial schools such as Bonus or BCFT, who have been struggling a bit in the recession will get a very welcome boost.
(3) The availability of a lot of highish spec training singles and twins onto the market at the same time will substantially depreciate the second hand light aircraft market. It'll be a great buyers market, but pretty dreadful if you're trying to sell.
(4) A number of new startup flying schools as experienced instructors, and in some cases some quite good premises, come available with those instructors looking for work.
G
(1) With a lot of instructors looking for work, newly qualified instructors will now find it extremely hard to get any work.
(2) Remaining commercial schools such as Bonus or BCFT, who have been struggling a bit in the recession will get a very welcome boost.
(3) The availability of a lot of highish spec training singles and twins onto the market at the same time will substantially depreciate the second hand light aircraft market. It'll be a great buyers market, but pretty dreadful if you're trying to sell.
(4) A number of new startup flying schools as experienced instructors, and in some cases some quite good premises, come available with those instructors looking for work.
G
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 423
Likes: 0
From: UK, mainly
Out of interest is the Diamond fleet used by Cabair owned or leased?