Is Cabair going to stay alive?
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
From: UK
Apologies for the slight thread drift...
About this time last year when I was planning my CPL/IR training, I narrowed it down to two modular establishments in the UK located pretty close to each other, both quality schools with good equipment and instructors and good reputations.
When it came to talking money with the first school, they were quite insistant that they would require the full amount for the IR (in excess of £10k) up-front at the start of the course. It was made clear that this was not negotiable and that paying in installments was not an option.
The second school was happy for me to employ a 'pay as you go' philosophy; as long as I walked out of the door every day with my account in the black they were happy.
I was absolutely not prepared to give an FTO such a large amount of money up-front and so I went with the second school (and I was extremely happy with them as it goes). I put funds on account in chunks at a time and never had much money sitting on account for long periods, an arrangement I was much more comfortable with.
A year ago, the first school weren't prepared to budge on their policy of paying the whole amount up-front, even when I said that I would be forced to take my business elsewhere which I subsequently did. I wonder if this would still be the case now or whether there would be more room for leverage!
About this time last year when I was planning my CPL/IR training, I narrowed it down to two modular establishments in the UK located pretty close to each other, both quality schools with good equipment and instructors and good reputations.
When it came to talking money with the first school, they were quite insistant that they would require the full amount for the IR (in excess of £10k) up-front at the start of the course. It was made clear that this was not negotiable and that paying in installments was not an option.
The second school was happy for me to employ a 'pay as you go' philosophy; as long as I walked out of the door every day with my account in the black they were happy.
I was absolutely not prepared to give an FTO such a large amount of money up-front and so I went with the second school (and I was extremely happy with them as it goes). I put funds on account in chunks at a time and never had much money sitting on account for long periods, an arrangement I was much more comfortable with.
A year ago, the first school weren't prepared to budge on their policy of paying the whole amount up-front, even when I said that I would be forced to take my business elsewhere which I subsequently did. I wonder if this would still be the case now or whether there would be more room for leverage!
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 2,033
Likes: 14
From: London, UK
There is actually one FTO where your money is 100% protected - Western Australian Aviation College.
WAAC are required, by the Australian Government, to have a set of insurance policies that guarantee to pay back money to overseas students in the event of WAAC folding. Then, if the insurance company were also to go bust, the Australian Government itself will refund the student or arrange for the student to complete the course elsewhere at the Aussie Govt. expense.
This system was introduced some time back after a number of educational establishments (not FTOs) went bust and a large number of overseas students lost a lot of money. Oz started to get a bad name, particularly in the Far East, so protect its market in OS students this scheme was introduced.
Of course, this does mean you have to go to Oz!!
WAAC are required, by the Australian Government, to have a set of insurance policies that guarantee to pay back money to overseas students in the event of WAAC folding. Then, if the insurance company were also to go bust, the Australian Government itself will refund the student or arrange for the student to complete the course elsewhere at the Aussie Govt. expense.
This system was introduced some time back after a number of educational establishments (not FTOs) went bust and a large number of overseas students lost a lot of money. Oz started to get a bad name, particularly in the Far East, so protect its market in OS students this scheme was introduced.
Of course, this does mean you have to go to Oz!!
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,246
Likes: 7
From: EU
One of the interesting aspects of paying as you go is that you appreciate the cost of each flight or sim session. Put it this way, if you give the FTO £1000 of your hard-borrowed cash by debit card just prior to a morning IR lesson, you're likely to be asked for more money just over 24 hours later once you land after your next lesson. That's how expensive flying training is! 
On the same theme but paradoxically, there is a danger that by flashing your card every couple of days you don't actually keep track of the overall picture and find yourself looking at amazement at your depressing bank statement, suddenly realising that you've spent a vast amount more than you were originally quoted!
On the same theme but paradoxically, there is a danger that by flashing your card every couple of days you don't actually keep track of the overall picture and find yourself looking at amazement at your depressing bank statement, suddenly realising that you've spent a vast amount more than you were originally quoted!
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 375
Likes: 31
From: UK
Flight training is a buyers market right now
There never was, nor will there ever be a huge profit to be made in flight training, so I suspect that while schools will do everything in their power to get your business, the fact will remain that they simply will not be able to afford to discount current training rates by any significant degree. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't bargain, but the reality is that you may not gain as much as you might think.
jez
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 1,095
Likes: 0
From: UK
Only a fool will not pay-as-you-go in this climate - no matter what school and how flashy their advertising is in the back of Flight. It was probably 8 years ago when the last big school folded, leaving many without a licence and with no money. It is a strategy that you should apply throughout your training. The only time i had to pay upfront for each module was Bristol Ground School, but the amount was minimal (compared to the rest of the bills). In fact during my ME/CPL/IR my school let me go substantially in debit, once they got to know me. Otherwise, i would just settle up what i owed at the end of each flying week, so I was always sort of in debit.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
From: Neither Here Nor There
WAAC are required, by the Australian Government, to have a set of insurance policies that guarantee to pay back money to overseas students in the event of WAAC folding
We have the ATOL bonding system regulated by the CAA so why couldn't a similar bonding scheme be introduced to FTOs?
Food for thought.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
From: The World
Slackjack, what kind of an insurance your pal has? I've never heard about anything like that before 
I'm just sorting the finances for the course and as I'm coming from overseas, the current pound rate would encourage to pay everything in advance, so that sort of insurance would certainly give some peace of mind!
I'm just sorting the finances for the course and as I'm coming from overseas, the current pound rate would encourage to pay everything in advance, so that sort of insurance would certainly give some peace of mind!
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 545
Likes: 0
From: Herefordshire
Debit cards..are you sure WWW?
Protection from loss is assued when payments are made by credit card ... but IIRC, no such protection is afforded when payment is made by debit card. Are you sure WWW? Cheers anyway bm
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: UK
I've been flying with Bedfordshire School of Flying - essentially the 'Private' arm of Cabair at Cranfield.
Apparently they've laid off quite a few commercial instructors, have sent back to the leasing company a lot of DA40s (not sure about the DA42s), and to cap it all off, they've just put their rental charges up from £120 ph to £160 ph on the DA40. Lovely!
Needless to say I (along with at least 2 that I know of) have moved to a different club/school.
Apparently they've laid off quite a few commercial instructors, have sent back to the leasing company a lot of DA40s (not sure about the DA42s), and to cap it all off, they've just put their rental charges up from £120 ph to £160 ph on the DA40. Lovely!
Needless to say I (along with at least 2 that I know of) have moved to a different club/school.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: Manchester
Cabair OFT
I was told by my new school that Cabair are doing great, that they are investing in an intergrated course at Orlando Flight Training (where I am doing my PPL) and that all is fine and dandy! That was one of the selling points for the school, that they were good enough for Cabair so why not me! And apparently it is only the beginning of Cabairs Expansion into America! This is what I was told!
???
???
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: North Tyneside
cabair
I am just near the end of my training, with little experience of training schools, but I have quickly learned statments like 'cabairs expansion' is the constant type of rubbish which comes from the mouths of the heads at cranfield.
If you have a flybe or rbi sponsor you will be rushed through with red carpet, but failing that you will be treated worse than an RSPCA rescue animal. I sit week in week out waiting for aircraft.
Poor aircraft serviceability, lack of aircraft, bad tempered and shouting instructors, should have gone else where, or delayed my start. With my parents re-mortgaged and no hope of a job at the moment the rubbish that cabair keep coming out with saying train now and you will be ready for the upturn is bull. Train now and be completely uncurrent and out of practice for the upturn.
If I had my time again cabair would not have got my money.
If you have a flybe or rbi sponsor you will be rushed through with red carpet, but failing that you will be treated worse than an RSPCA rescue animal. I sit week in week out waiting for aircraft.
Poor aircraft serviceability, lack of aircraft, bad tempered and shouting instructors, should have gone else where, or delayed my start. With my parents re-mortgaged and no hope of a job at the moment the rubbish that cabair keep coming out with saying train now and you will be ready for the upturn is bull. Train now and be completely uncurrent and out of practice for the upturn.
If I had my time again cabair would not have got my money.
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: midlands
cabair
hi m8 nice blog on cabair
i passed an assesment with them in august 08, deciding to delay my training till end 0f09/early 2010.
they hounded me for me to start in march and have sent multiple letters ever since to get me to start. they seem very keen but i amglad i have read your blog as it confirmed to me tat they are my last resort after several others after oxford.
hope all goes well.
i passed an assesment with them in august 08, deciding to delay my training till end 0f09/early 2010.
they hounded me for me to start in march and have sent multiple letters ever since to get me to start. they seem very keen but i amglad i have read your blog as it confirmed to me tat they are my last resort after several others after oxford.
hope all goes well.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: uk
FTO's in general!
Visit www.companieshouse.gov.uk/ pay for a report on the company you want to check out and view filed accounts. FYI CABAIRS are alot better than most!
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: ???????
Cabair a bit like Tescos
Cabair are a bit like Tescos, they pop up everywhere, over the last few years they have brought up a fair few establishments! I don't think they will go bust, but I think you may see some of the less profitable parts of the business vanish! Personally I don't like Cabair, never heard a good word about them, there sausage factory approach to flight training stinks if you ask me. I also hate the fact that they buy training rights at a number of airfields such as Elstree which means that an experienced private pilot cannot fly in the circuit! Madness!
Joined: May 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 688
Likes: 108
From: Bear Island
Question 1
What was your source ?
Question 2 .. what are you doing popping up asking that question with one post to your name ?
Don't expect to be taken seriously here will you ?
Question 2 .. what are you doing popping up asking that question with one post to your name ?
Don't expect to be taken seriously here will you ?