anyone starting an intergrated course in the next few weeks.
Roomey its laughable that you think that knowing someone in said airlines will get you anywhere. The days of pilots being able to put your CV on the chief pilots desk are long gone. HR are a law onto themselves and seem to revel in their tests to find "the right person" Additionally in these days of PC any airline that doesn't follow a strict procedure opens themselves to all sorts of accusations of favoritism and thus potential lawsuits.
I can confirm though that the big yellow and blue boeing is not taking cadets at the moment but may possibly start rehiring in the new year. Thats a big if and I would assume that depends on how bad the market gets. As for BA well just look at the thread about the BA holding pool, speaks volumes that they are canceling sim tests in November/December and have admitted they are over crewed on some fleets.
By all means stay positive but please face reality that we are entering a severe downturn in the market with the UK's economy actually shrinking for the first time in 16 years. When you hit the market in 10 months from now you'll be yet another number added to the queue with nothing else to distinguish yourself from the rest of the zero to hero wannabes.
You may yet have to dust off the plans for the backup plan!
I can confirm though that the big yellow and blue boeing is not taking cadets at the moment but may possibly start rehiring in the new year. Thats a big if and I would assume that depends on how bad the market gets. As for BA well just look at the thread about the BA holding pool, speaks volumes that they are canceling sim tests in November/December and have admitted they are over crewed on some fleets.
By all means stay positive but please face reality that we are entering a severe downturn in the market with the UK's economy actually shrinking for the first time in 16 years. When you hit the market in 10 months from now you'll be yet another number added to the queue with nothing else to distinguish yourself from the rest of the zero to hero wannabes.
You may yet have to dust off the plans for the backup plan!
Roomey,
Enjoy your course, don't worry about getting a job until you get to the IR stage. The days of mates helping mates have not long gone and a personal recommendation is worth a thousand aptitude tests.
My advice is: These are difficult times, and you are going to have to work really hard to stand out from the crowd. Treat every exam as if it were a job interview, work hard and make sure you don't have to retake anything. You have to give yourself the best chance possible.
And when it comes to finding a job allot of it is luck, but airlines want a broad demographic of pilots and experience.
Good luck!
And that goes for anyone starting out.
Enjoy your course, don't worry about getting a job until you get to the IR stage. The days of mates helping mates have not long gone and a personal recommendation is worth a thousand aptitude tests.
My advice is: These are difficult times, and you are going to have to work really hard to stand out from the crowd. Treat every exam as if it were a job interview, work hard and make sure you don't have to retake anything. You have to give yourself the best chance possible.
And when it comes to finding a job allot of it is luck, but airlines want a broad demographic of pilots and experience.
Good luck!
And that goes for anyone starting out.
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It's definitley healthy to hear some real world wisdom from those who've already trained and are now working in the industry. Something which I feel very lucky to be able to read indeed.
Those contributing it (on all threads), thank you very much, there are many of us out here whom are most grateful. It's important to keep perspective with the real world as much as possible regardless of how much we're gagging to get to that RHS.
Those contributing it (on all threads), thank you very much, there are many of us out here whom are most grateful. It's important to keep perspective with the real world as much as possible regardless of how much we're gagging to get to that RHS.
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Part of the problem with wannabes is that some will not listen to their peers, those of us who are working at the pointy end. I find it incredulous to see some posters come on here and shout the odds that they are the greatest this and that, only to find they have not started training yet.
The very people you want to talk to and make contact with are those of us who have jobs in the industry, so don't alienate us, as you may find you need our help, just as we might need your help to get a CV in front of a Chief Pilot one day.
This is a very small industry remember that, there is no need to be so arrogant when people try to help.
Roomey, if you have contacts who can open doors great, I serious doubt it, I did my PPL with one of the top brass at the golden harp airline, I even have a 737NG Rating with hours on type, guess what, he cannot help me get a job at the moment with them. Thankfully I have a better job and am happier where I am even if it means I have to travel abroad for it.
The right attitude will get you far and the wrong one....well I don't need to say.
Good luck with your training and maybe you should think of winding your neck in a bit before you start shouting the odds again
Just some friendly advice.
FC
The very people you want to talk to and make contact with are those of us who have jobs in the industry, so don't alienate us, as you may find you need our help, just as we might need your help to get a CV in front of a Chief Pilot one day.
This is a very small industry remember that, there is no need to be so arrogant when people try to help.
Roomey, if you have contacts who can open doors great, I serious doubt it, I did my PPL with one of the top brass at the golden harp airline, I even have a 737NG Rating with hours on type, guess what, he cannot help me get a job at the moment with them. Thankfully I have a better job and am happier where I am even if it means I have to travel abroad for it.
The right attitude will get you far and the wrong one....well I don't need to say.
Good luck with your training and maybe you should think of winding your neck in a bit before you start shouting the odds again
Just some friendly advice.
FC
What is the cost penalty of not starting the course?
They need to weighed against the cost of keeping yourself eligible for employment for several years post basic training. I strongly suspect Mr Spock would write off the deposit.
WWW
They need to weighed against the cost of keeping yourself eligible for employment for several years post basic training. I strongly suspect Mr Spock would write off the deposit.
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are bless! I just love it when people jump on the band wagon. Its funny I dont remember saying anything about my friends getting me a Job! theres not someone on here jumping to conclusions is there? I dont beleive it! any way moving on. Being able to get in front of the right people (once again not my pilot friends) who can point you in the right direction has surely got to have its advantages. I appreciate what people say about HR being a law to themselves, Having worked for a fortune 500 company for many years I know this to be true. The following from my life experience is also very true. A small percentage of the time, it is very naive to think that someone got a job ahead of you because he was better candidate than you. Life has tought me that people knowing people how ever unfair is, is an advantage. This statement I beleive to be true for every Industry. Contrary to what some people think I really do appreciate people giving constructive advice.
OK. Don't go on the course.
Instead do a PPL. Keep in employment. Build towards 100hrs. Add an IMC. Take your time, enjoy your flying, join a club. Maybe join a syndicate. Start the distance learning ATPL groundschool. Study after work and at weekends.
Then maybe as soon as 2 years from now look again at commercial aviation.
I think you'll be very glad if you do that.
WWW
Instead do a PPL. Keep in employment. Build towards 100hrs. Add an IMC. Take your time, enjoy your flying, join a club. Maybe join a syndicate. Start the distance learning ATPL groundschool. Study after work and at weekends.
Then maybe as soon as 2 years from now look again at commercial aviation.
I think you'll be very glad if you do that.
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WWW I am fortunate to own a succesful company that has enable me to fund chasing my dream of becoming an airline pilot. I have the money to do it intergrated and get it done ASAP, I already have my PPL (lapsed). The reason my PPL has lapsed is because I have saved up 80% of the funds to go intergrated and get to where i want to get to and hopefully enjoy a long and succesful career in aviation. Also I have the age problem, so waiting a couple more years in my opinion will make me less attractive to the airlines.
Sometimes in life you just have to think go for it!
Sometimes in life you just have to think go for it!
Well, there you go, everyones circumstances are different.
You have a lot of factors which point to doing an Integrated course without delay. In normal conditions I'd say go for it. I can't though. Nobody wants someone who did their basic training over two years ago and since then has just kept their license alive.
I don't think you'll get a job in 2009/2010. Not just you but at least 90% of new CPL holders.
I'd shrug my shoulders and accept that the market is effectively closed and you'll just have to come back when its open again.
WWW
You have a lot of factors which point to doing an Integrated course without delay. In normal conditions I'd say go for it. I can't though. Nobody wants someone who did their basic training over two years ago and since then has just kept their license alive.
I don't think you'll get a job in 2009/2010. Not just you but at least 90% of new CPL holders.
I'd shrug my shoulders and accept that the market is effectively closed and you'll just have to come back when its open again.
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But is it not true, that in 14 months when he has completed his CPL, if there are any job opportunities about and there may well be if airlines have not recruited over this period, that the pilots they would recruit would be the ones that have just completed their training.
An airline pilot once told me that the best qualified pilots are the ones that have just graduated.
An airline pilot once told me that the best qualified pilots are the ones that have just graduated.
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That sounds very much like whistling in the dark.
I can understand why people already committed to an integrated course get all defensive when it's pointed out to them that their chances of finding a job in the next couple of years are very slim. No-one likes admitting they've backed the wrong horse.
But please - pretty please - listen to those of us already in the industry, who have already seen how bad the job market gets when times are bad. This downturn is only just getting going. Carriers have been going bust left right and centre over the summer - and that's when they make their money. What do you think is going to happen over the winter months?
Jobs for low-hours pilots are going to be very - very - thin on the ground for at least the next 2 years, and probably longer.
P.S. roomey - if you think you have 'the age problem' at 29, I'd strongly recommend some more research.
I can understand why people already committed to an integrated course get all defensive when it's pointed out to them that their chances of finding a job in the next couple of years are very slim. No-one likes admitting they've backed the wrong horse.
But please - pretty please - listen to those of us already in the industry, who have already seen how bad the job market gets when times are bad. This downturn is only just getting going. Carriers have been going bust left right and centre over the summer - and that's when they make their money. What do you think is going to happen over the winter months?
Jobs for low-hours pilots are going to be very - very - thin on the ground for at least the next 2 years, and probably longer.
P.S. roomey - if you think you have 'the age problem' at 29, I'd strongly recommend some more research.
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Well, Roomy, you are a braver man than me, but with no debt, you will be in a better position than many others.
Just remember that your flying skills go off the boil rapidly, so have plan B ready for when you graduate and there are no jobs around, or that BA SSP opportunity isn't forthcoming.
If I learnt anything from my experiences, do it sooner rather than later.
It's surprising, there are a few who 'work down the back' at my outfit, who are starting integrated courses this winter. On their massive 12k salaries, it does make you wonder what they have been smoking.
Good luck to you!
Just remember that your flying skills go off the boil rapidly, so have plan B ready for when you graduate and there are no jobs around, or that BA SSP opportunity isn't forthcoming.
If I learnt anything from my experiences, do it sooner rather than later.
It's surprising, there are a few who 'work down the back' at my outfit, who are starting integrated courses this winter. On their massive 12k salaries, it does make you wonder what they have been smoking.
Good luck to you!
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Oh dear - some people really do tunnel vision themselves into their own views don't they. I'm with FR, and I can tell you that 'knowing' somebody got a pal of mine and a few others into the company within the last week. You'll be seeing a Ryanair 737 in the circuit at (probably) East Midlands in about 6 months' time, and I'll tell you now, none of the guys on that aircraft have applied through the website.
This does not apply to somebody in your position, but Monarch are particularly biased towards the old 'CV on the desk' technique, and I know a few chaps with Jet2 who got in through the back door as well so to speak. It is absolutely not an extinct method of entry and happens perhaps more frequently than you think.
A lot goes on behind closed doors,
Best of luck with your training, I took the APP course - it prepares you thoroughly for your intended career and if you have something about you I'm sure you'll be fine. DO KEEP YOUR OPTIONS OPEN - the airlines are not the be all and end all. And if you come out at a loose end, get in touch as I have loads of contacts outside the airline industry who are always glad to hear from enthusiastic guys, even in this gloomy time!
Take care, A
This does not apply to somebody in your position, but Monarch are particularly biased towards the old 'CV on the desk' technique, and I know a few chaps with Jet2 who got in through the back door as well so to speak. It is absolutely not an extinct method of entry and happens perhaps more frequently than you think.
A lot goes on behind closed doors,
Best of luck with your training, I took the APP course - it prepares you thoroughly for your intended career and if you have something about you I'm sure you'll be fine. DO KEEP YOUR OPTIONS OPEN - the airlines are not the be all and end all. And if you come out at a loose end, get in touch as I have loads of contacts outside the airline industry who are always glad to hear from enthusiastic guys, even in this gloomy time!
Take care, A
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But is it not true, that in 14 months when he has completed his CPL, if there are any job opportunities about and there may well be if airlines have not recruited over this period, that the pilots they would recruit would be the ones that have just completed their training.
Any job opportunities in 14 months time will be massively oversubscribed. The cold hard facts are that several European airlines will fold/merge/massively downsize over the next year. All the indicators point to pilot job losses on a scale that many of us, myself included, have not yet witnessed in our careers.
So 14 months from now the airlines who may have a few vacancies to fill will have their pick from a large pool of experienced, current, jet/TP rated pilots. The point everyone in the industry is trying to make to those wishing to join it is you have no chance of even competing for an airline job if such a large pool of experience exists.
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"So 14 months from now the airlines who may have a few vacancies to fill will have their pick from a large pool of experienced, current, jet/TP rated pilots. The point everyone in the industry is trying to make to those wishing to join it is you have no chance of even competing for an airline job if such a large pool of experience exists".
Do you know that for a fact though? I am not in the airline industry, not planning to train, so have no axe to grind, but I have heard first hand from a chief pilot that his employer would rather take newly qualified pilots than from 'pool of experienced pilots'. Don't know why that would be, apart from maybe the salary they pay, but that is what he told me.
Do you know that for a fact though? I am not in the airline industry, not planning to train, so have no axe to grind, but I have heard first hand from a chief pilot that his employer would rather take newly qualified pilots than from 'pool of experienced pilots'. Don't know why that would be, apart from maybe the salary they pay, but that is what he told me.
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The industry has changed significantly. Yes I believe that airlines do indeed look at newly qualified individuals more so than experienced - certainly for short haul operations.
Most experienced guys want a salary from day 1 of starting with an employer and don't really want to pay for a TR, and will point-blank refuse to be bonded for an aircraft type they already fly.
Cadets, on the other hand, will happily work for nothing on their TR course, pay for the course, have a reduced salary for x-months, and be very happy in life - until of course they come to change jobs, and find a load of new guys competing for those jobs too.
Experienced guys start to look distinctly uncompetitive.
Most experienced guys want a salary from day 1 of starting with an employer and don't really want to pay for a TR, and will point-blank refuse to be bonded for an aircraft type they already fly.
Cadets, on the other hand, will happily work for nothing on their TR course, pay for the course, have a reduced salary for x-months, and be very happy in life - until of course they come to change jobs, and find a load of new guys competing for those jobs too.
Experienced guys start to look distinctly uncompetitive.
, i just got my atpl results with an average of 99% for OAA phase1 and i feel fantastic 
