Growing Evidence That The Upturn Is Upon Us
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I am just guessing here but are those first hand accounts from recent ATP cadets? There is a reason that Captains preferred those "pilots" to keep the automatics in. Nothing to do with FDM, more to do with living to retirement. And I have that first hand too...
How much time have you spent in the Orange Paradise to judge it so well?
And if may be so bold as to semi-quote WWW; "Join BALPA and face apathy."
S.
my powder is dry
How much time have you spent in the Orange Paradise to judge it so well?
And if may be so bold as to semi-quote WWW; "Join BALPA and face apathy."
S.
my powder is dry
I'm pretty low-hours and fly for the big orange airline, and not once has a commander insisted I keep the automatics in until 300ft... in fact, possibly the most used phrase since the weather has improved has been "if you want to finish visually, it's fine by me..."
What has FDM got to do with visual approaches? It doesn't matter what type of approach you do, if you do it properly you won't be flagged up on the FDM.
Anyway, I thought this thread was supposed to be debating the merits of the CTC Wings scheme. Could anybody explain what this "I get to do more hand flying than you" willy-waving contest has got to do with anything?
What has FDM got to do with visual approaches? It doesn't matter what type of approach you do, if you do it properly you won't be flagged up on the FDM.
Anyway, I thought this thread was supposed to be debating the merits of the CTC Wings scheme. Could anybody explain what this "I get to do more hand flying than you" willy-waving contest has got to do with anything?
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Zippy
Your views about the FDM and the reports that I get from a number of people are somewhat at odds.
I cant help thinking that you may well have not been around long enough to know how the rest of the industry works outside the big orange. I have over the years had to fly around IFR STAR's behind countless Orange aircraft in perfect VMC waisting lots of fuel & airframe time because the aircraft ahead don't seem to want to "go Visual"
To quote you "if you want to finish visually, it's fine by me..."
But how far away from the runway will this start? 5 mine final?, downwind? 10,000ft?
This is not as you say a "willy waving" contest but a question of how you would cope if the automatics quit? As the RAF are so keen on saying flying is a perishable skill and you should ask if the FDM policy is getting in the way of your flying practice.
As you say you will have no problems with the FDM if all is within the limits but minor deviations seem to pull up instant emails from the FDM police or so I am told. This is not the way the system should work, unless a situation shows disregard for the rules and a clear danger it should not be raised with the crew. FDM should be used for trend monitoring, the results published and then acted upon by the training department.
So onto the "what has this got to do with CTC"?
Well not a lot directly but the you have to question the value of getting tied into a deal that gets you some line training with a company that is so tightly regulated. The chances of getting a well rounded line training are slim and just as you start to make friends with the aircraft you are put into a hold pool and left with the prospect of paying yet more money to keep in check.
Please don't think that it is just the Orange ones I am questioning, it is the whole training industry that is putting people in huge amounts of debt for very little return and I think that the stance that some airlines have taken in selling the right seat is rather distastfull.
It just seems to me that this sharp practice, too much HR input into pilot recrutment and agressive FDM seem to go together producing a rather unhappy workplace.
Thirty years ago a few rich kids that I was assosiated with paid for a type rating to "get ahead" of the pack, this snowballed and the end result is people are now paying to work!....................... I dispair!
I cant help thinking that you may well have not been around long enough to know how the rest of the industry works outside the big orange. I have over the years had to fly around IFR STAR's behind countless Orange aircraft in perfect VMC waisting lots of fuel & airframe time because the aircraft ahead don't seem to want to "go Visual"
To quote you "if you want to finish visually, it's fine by me..."
But how far away from the runway will this start? 5 mine final?, downwind? 10,000ft?
This is not as you say a "willy waving" contest but a question of how you would cope if the automatics quit? As the RAF are so keen on saying flying is a perishable skill and you should ask if the FDM policy is getting in the way of your flying practice.
As you say you will have no problems with the FDM if all is within the limits but minor deviations seem to pull up instant emails from the FDM police or so I am told. This is not the way the system should work, unless a situation shows disregard for the rules and a clear danger it should not be raised with the crew. FDM should be used for trend monitoring, the results published and then acted upon by the training department.
So onto the "what has this got to do with CTC"?
Well not a lot directly but the you have to question the value of getting tied into a deal that gets you some line training with a company that is so tightly regulated. The chances of getting a well rounded line training are slim and just as you start to make friends with the aircraft you are put into a hold pool and left with the prospect of paying yet more money to keep in check.
Please don't think that it is just the Orange ones I am questioning, it is the whole training industry that is putting people in huge amounts of debt for very little return and I think that the stance that some airlines have taken in selling the right seat is rather distastfull.
It just seems to me that this sharp practice, too much HR input into pilot recrutment and agressive FDM seem to go together producing a rather unhappy workplace.
Thirty years ago a few rich kids that I was assosiated with paid for a type rating to "get ahead" of the pack, this snowballed and the end result is people are now paying to work!....................... I dispair!
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A and C said
I get it now... somebody failed to get into the Orange Mill. That must really bite considering some of the muppets they let in these days. It explains the chip on both shoulders.
And going back to the dreamers, I haven't known WWW to be wrong very often, he just doesn't blow smoke up the posterior like the flightschools.
S.
These are atributes that will stand you in good sted, (may be not in the land that has been duped by the orange propaganda mill)...
These airlines dont have the lesbian PMT bitch from hell running pilot recruting, pilots do that! and these are always the best places to work.
These airlines dont have the lesbian PMT bitch from hell running pilot recruting, pilots do that! and these are always the best places to work.
And going back to the dreamers, I haven't known WWW to be wrong very often, he just doesn't blow smoke up the posterior like the flightschools.
S.
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Screwballs
Just in case you are wondering I have never even filled out an Easyjet application form.................. so wrong on that one!
The lesbian PMT bitch was from another airline that in veiw of the style of interview I was unable to offer them the position of my employer.
As for WWW a lot of truth in what he has said but if we all heeded his advice the whole industry would pack up it's tent and go away, things are not as bad as he says and if he had been around in the 90's and I had taken his advice I would not have a jet airliner command.
What this industry needs is people with drive and determination, not the those with negative attitudes, balance is required.
The lesbian PMT bitch was from another airline that in veiw of the style of interview I was unable to offer them the position of my employer.
As for WWW a lot of truth in what he has said but if we all heeded his advice the whole industry would pack up it's tent and go away, things are not as bad as he says and if he had been around in the 90's and I had taken his advice I would not have a jet airliner command.
What this industry needs is people with drive and determination, not the those with negative attitudes, balance is required.
Last edited by A and C; 23rd Jun 2009 at 08:27.
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lot of truth in what he has said but if we all heeded his advice the whole industry would pack up it's tent and go away
The lesbian PMT bitch
WWW and A and C you both, it would seem have done nicely out of your flying careers, make sure you continue to enjoy them and continue to offer your valued inputs to these threads. I know some training captains who very actively encourage hand flying and some who are vehermently against it saying we had no place to do so, all within the same organisation. Horses for courses. Personally I don't see anything wrong with it at all, it's the job but I don't see the need for people to hand fly the plane up to FL150 like I have heard some guys do. You are paid to fly the aircraft comfortably and commercially, it's not time for fun.
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I think I'm with A and C on this one. I've operated in the 'don't take the automatics out they're far better than you are at flying the aircraft' environment and in the older style of cockpit. The first only works when everything is going to plan, the second is a little more difficult to manage in a modern multi-sector environment but, in my view, pays dividends in the long term. Yes, hand flying is a perishable skill, if you don't practice it it won't be there when you need it. Airlines have very short term views, they tend not to see the long term.
WWW is a bit of a gloomy b*gger but he's right in several senses, the cowboys, and there are many of them, do need to be controlled. He's also right in that this piloting thing turns into a glorified bus drivers job fairly quickly, and right again that the industry doesn't care but, in truth, it never did.
WWW is a bit of a gloomy b*gger but he's right in several senses, the cowboys, and there are many of them, do need to be controlled. He's also right in that this piloting thing turns into a glorified bus drivers job fairly quickly, and right again that the industry doesn't care but, in truth, it never did.
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What has FDM got to do with visual approaches? It doesn't matter what type of approach you do, if you do it properly you won't be flagged up on the FDM.
Anyway, I thought this thread was supposed to be debating the merits of the CTC Wings scheme. Could anybody explain what this "I get to do more hand flying than you" willy-waving contest has got to do with anything?
Anyway, I thought this thread was supposed to be debating the merits of the CTC Wings scheme. Could anybody explain what this "I get to do more hand flying than you" willy-waving contest has got to do with anything?
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Things are 'bad' right now whether your a burger flipper or a big cheese big ego redundant pilot but there aint many starving fatpl holders yeah some are working as baggage handlers or cabin crew scraping by boo whoo whoo. There are people who are far worse off even when the economy is booming!
I've just added in about 16 posts to this thread that came from the CTC discussion thread on the other forum. This was to reduce thread tangent. Some of the comments now don't make strict sense but then some of them never did.. ;-)
WWW
WWW
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Beak
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Personally I don't see anything wrong with it at all, it's the job but I don't see the need for people to hand fly the plane up to FL150 like I have heard some guys do. You are paid to fly the aircraft comfortably and commercially, it's not time for fun.
Its all about balance, under the right conditions hand flying the aircraft to FL150 and above is OK and if you are in practice no one in the back will know, however if it is very busy and avoiding CB's use of the automatics are more appropriate.
In turbulence on approach the automatics are usualy not the way to go as a well practiced pilot can "ride" the turbulence and produce a much smoother approach than the automatics and it is important to get a feel for the conditions of the day, take out the autopilot at 300 ft on a gusty day and you will have an uphill struggle to get a good landing.
Personally I don't see anything wrong with it at all, it's the job but I don't see the need for people to hand fly the plane up to FL150 like I have heard some guys do. You are paid to fly the aircraft comfortably and commercially, it's not time for fun.
Its all about balance, under the right conditions hand flying the aircraft to FL150 and above is OK and if you are in practice no one in the back will know, however if it is very busy and avoiding CB's use of the automatics are more appropriate.
In turbulence on approach the automatics are usualy not the way to go as a well practiced pilot can "ride" the turbulence and produce a much smoother approach than the automatics and it is important to get a feel for the conditions of the day, take out the autopilot at 300 ft on a gusty day and you will have an uphill struggle to get a good landing.
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I don't see the need for people to hand fly the plane up to FL150
We had an incident a few years back at the airline I work for that was directly blamed on the captains total lack of experience of handling the aircraft manually at altitude. The type I fly feels very different at FL200 than 200ft.
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Autopilots can fail at FL150.
Now and then fine practice it but not all the time is all I am saying.
take out the autopilot at 300 ft on a gusty day and you will have an uphill struggle to get a good landing.
We had an incident a few years back at the airline I work for that was directly blamed on the captains total lack of experience of handling the aircraft manually at altitude. The type I fly feels very different at FL200 than 200ft.
and never fly the thing, just not all the time. Contrary to popular belief what you don't know CAN hurt you.An interesting document for anyone interested follows. Good for interview brush ups too!
High-Altitude Handling
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Theres nothing interesting about that thread. The world does not owe any cpl holder a job.
Most airline interviewers spent years looking for their first airline job. Its just how the cookie crumbles. Survival of the fittest deal with it.
Most airline interviewers spent years looking for their first airline job. Its just how the cookie crumbles. Survival of the fittest deal with it.
Nobody is owed job correct. But when you daily work with very able, very high calibre CPL IR holders who are in £60k holes and working as £15k aircraft despatchers you gain a perspective which disinclines you to encourage others to follow in their tragic footsteps.
The no hopers on that thread have existed in boom times as well as bust and will be a constant feature.
Survival of the fittest is apt. The fittest of the last 18 months are those that have not expended energy wastefully achieving goals which have proved pointless.
WWW
The no hopers on that thread have existed in boom times as well as bust and will be a constant feature.
Survival of the fittest is apt. The fittest of the last 18 months are those that have not expended energy wastefully achieving goals which have proved pointless.
WWW
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I have spent the past 18months getting a lovely fatpl. Currently unemployed, 70k debt. Things can only get better
I wouldnt encourage anyone to go and do an integrated course now or ever, but if they are aware of the huge risk involved and make the decision to do it, then that's their problem.
Some people walk into the nearest fto thinking they will walk back out 56weeks later and straight into a job at ba......silly billies..
I wouldnt encourage anyone to go and do an integrated course now or ever, but if they are aware of the huge risk involved and make the decision to do it, then that's their problem.
Some people walk into the nearest fto thinking they will walk back out 56weeks later and straight into a job at ba......silly billies..
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UK economy 'set to shrink faster'
The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) has revised down its forecast for the UK economy in 2009.
It warns that the UK is in "a sharp recession" with output set to contract by 4.3% in 2009, worse than its previous forecast of a 3.7% fall.
The OECD predicts zero growth in the UK economy in 2010 and says the UK budget deficit will hit 14% of GDP next year.
It warns that the UK is in "a sharp recession" with output set to contract by 4.3% in 2009, worse than its previous forecast of a 3.7% fall.
The OECD predicts zero growth in the UK economy in 2010 and says the UK budget deficit will hit 14% of GDP next year.
Some people walk into the nearest fto thinking they will walk back out 56weeks later and straight into a job at ba......silly billies..
