View Poll Results: Type rating?
Bought Type rating - got the job
4
66.67%
Bought Type rating - told "need time on type"
1
16.67%
You were told buy the type and get the job - but did not get a job offer anyway
1
16.67%
Voters: 6. This poll is closed
Type Rating - which type, where, why pay etc?
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Don't spend your money on a type rating if you don't have the promise of a job afterwards.
Most companies will only take 200/300 hr guys with a type rating if they are really short - this is very rare.
Recruitment across all airlines this coming summer will be good - with a lot of movement and expansion - there will be opportunities for inexperienced guys, but you just have to sit tight and keep plugging away for jobs.
Dont do a speculative type rating - its a very very big gamble
Most companies will only take 200/300 hr guys with a type rating if they are really short - this is very rare.
Recruitment across all airlines this coming summer will be good - with a lot of movement and expansion - there will be opportunities for inexperienced guys, but you just have to sit tight and keep plugging away for jobs.
Dont do a speculative type rating - its a very very big gamble
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But anybody that hasn't already got a type rating it hardly likely to get a job for the summer season, in many EU countries the summer starts at Easter, now, and if one went for a TR next week they would not have finished it until around July, then would come the airline SOP's & line training etc. thus a current non type rated pilot would be ready just in time for the end of the summer when very many experienced pilots will become available.
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Originally Posted by Phileas Fogg
But anybody that hasn't already got a type rating it hardly likely to get a job for the summer season, in many EU countries the summer starts at Easter, now, and if one went for a TR next week they would not have finished it until around July, then would come the airline SOP's & line training etc. thus a current non type rated pilot would be ready just in time for the end of the summer when very many experienced pilots will become available.
/LnS
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All the guys who give advice not to pay for type rating should think first that staying with no job costs more.
Now with a type rating there is still no guarantee of a job,but its your money,its your decision to make whether to take a risk or not,it depends if you can afford it.
I am also thinking of doing a rating but only if i have a job guarantee,i dont think i would go for a jet since its too expensive and also too many people have it,i am looking into getting a rating for a medium size turbo prop,i dont know which one yet.
Now with a type rating there is still no guarantee of a job,but its your money,its your decision to make whether to take a risk or not,it depends if you can afford it.
I am also thinking of doing a rating but only if i have a job guarantee,i dont think i would go for a jet since its too expensive and also too many people have it,i am looking into getting a rating for a medium size turbo prop,i dont know which one yet.
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mob?
Originally Posted by Phileas Fogg
One sees the anti, can't afford to pay for, SSTR mob out disuading others from, in their opinion, jumping the queue.
A SSTR can only serve to enhance one's chances of an airline job, a definite approach and step in the right direction but unless their is an offer of employment at the end of it then you will be jumping one queue, those against and/or can't afford, to join another queue of those that have already done it and are knocking on the airline doors for a job having not secured a job before or as part of the SSTR.
A SSTR can only serve to enhance one's chances of an airline job, a definite approach and step in the right direction but unless their is an offer of employment at the end of it then you will be jumping one queue, those against and/or can't afford, to join another queue of those that have already done it and are knocking on the airline doors for a job having not secured a job before or as part of the SSTR.
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if the likes of ryanair, who have been taking low hours guys for years, have resorted to having to advertise on this site that they are the high salaries airline with a great roster etc. things are on the move. Your time will come. Until then find something constructive to do or you will look the same as all the others who get a licence and achieve nothing but an IR renewal every year until someone gives them a job.
ta ta.
ta ta.
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Originally Posted by LEVC
One can also see the "buy yourself a job" mob, making rich some son of a %%%%% on your way to your dreamed RHS, that is, if you get there at all after you fork the money out.
Not satisfied then go discuss it in the dole queue, in my aviation career of some 27 years I've done what is necessary, others might consider trying the same and stop complaining at the doorstep, this industry owes you nothing, you have to find your own way in!
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I am also thinking of doing a rating but only if i have a job guarantee
THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES WITH ANY OF IT
You will have to risk paying for a TR. No airline will sign a contract FIRST, giving you a job if you pay for a TR.
They might take you on afterwards ONLY if they are short of candidates with ZERO experience.
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Many good posts here! I think it is very important not to rush into anything when being relatively young having a fATPL. Now, I have myself been in the very that akward and frustrating position not too long ago, facing nothing but dead time (or sending loads of CVs and filling out online applications) but as has been said so many times; buying a TR is a risky business. So if you are hungry and eager for a position with a major airline I see two options:
1. Ryaniar (if you're successful you might even get the bonded option). Yes, consider all the information before signing up with them. And yes, it requires luck and timing to be offered a screening at EMA.
2. CTC ATP scheme. Perhaps the best option. Not heard that much negative about them and it's relatively easy to get invited for stage 2 (was invited myself. All that was required was filling out the appliction and calling them once and violá!).
Buying a 737 classic or an A320 rating is just too risky. There are not that many job opportunities without hours on the type. So if you decide to go for a rating I completely agree with LnS. Go for the smaller ones: S340, the dash, ATR etc. It is UNREALISTIC to expect that you will get a RHS in a jet as your first job. If you do it's about luck, timing and contacts (and you will require that for any aviation job just perhaps not the same amount). Good luck!
1. Ryaniar (if you're successful you might even get the bonded option). Yes, consider all the information before signing up with them. And yes, it requires luck and timing to be offered a screening at EMA.
2. CTC ATP scheme. Perhaps the best option. Not heard that much negative about them and it's relatively easy to get invited for stage 2 (was invited myself. All that was required was filling out the appliction and calling them once and violá!).
Buying a 737 classic or an A320 rating is just too risky. There are not that many job opportunities without hours on the type. So if you decide to go for a rating I completely agree with LnS. Go for the smaller ones: S340, the dash, ATR etc. It is UNREALISTIC to expect that you will get a RHS in a jet as your first job. If you do it's about luck, timing and contacts (and you will require that for any aviation job just perhaps not the same amount). Good luck!
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Originally Posted by Craggenmore
There was a very long standing and famous quote on a 'sticky' thread on this forum for years.
THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES WITH ANY OF IT
You will have to risk paying for a TR. No airline will sign a contract FIRST, giving you a job if you pay for a TR.
They might take you on afterwards ONLY if they are short of candidates with ZERO experience.
THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES WITH ANY OF IT
You will have to risk paying for a TR. No airline will sign a contract FIRST, giving you a job if you pay for a TR.
They might take you on afterwards ONLY if they are short of candidates with ZERO experience.
One is, one presumes, referring to all the type rating vendors and not the actual employers and the two ain't necessarily the same.
Best to stay away from the fast food type rating vendors and find oneself an in-house type rating with a job thereafter.
Of course there will be clauses in the contract that to secure the job one needs to successfully complete the training and maintain a standard of proficiency but one can't expect to secure the job 100% until one is suitably qualified.
But, nothing in aviation is guaranteed, aviation is the most volatile of industries and subject to serious and instantaneous downturns in business in the event(s) of global conflicts and terrorism just as two examples.
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Cragenmore i dont agree with you that there is no guarantees before doing a type rating.Personally i know people who have signed an agreement with an airline that after they do their own rating they will have a guaranteed job.I know its not very common but it can happen.
Ofcourse the other way is as you said to go do a rating without guarantee of a job.If u were doing this which rating would u choose to do?
Ofcourse the other way is as you said to go do a rating without guarantee of a job.If u were doing this which rating would u choose to do?
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Originally Posted by Phileas Fogg
One sees that I ain't even a pilot and have never wanted to be but I talk to wannabees all the time, I LISTEN to their points of view and I voice them here.
Not satisfied then go discuss it in the dole queue, in my aviation career of some 27 years I've done what is necessary, others might consider trying the same and stop complaining at the doorstep, this industry owes you nothing, you have to find your own way in!
Not satisfied then go discuss it in the dole queue, in my aviation career of some 27 years I've done what is necessary, others might consider trying the same and stop complaining at the doorstep, this industry owes you nothing, you have to find your own way in!
LISTENING to what you have to say it seems all wannabees are willing to buy their way in, so you and your likes can make some money.
Cut the bull****, there are ways to have a break in the industry, there always have ben, and there will allways be, it may be long and require some effort.
And by the way, i have never been on the dole queue you seem to know so well, i had to work in jobs not related to aviation, but it wasn't the end of the world, and luckyly enough i am flying on the RHS, and still haven't paid for any job.
You are right , this industry owes me nothing, something i have always been aware of, but you seem to think that pilots wanting to have a break in have to buy a job from you and your likes (quoting your description, can i define it as Mob?).
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LEVC,
I don't vend type ratings so I don't make money and just what are 'your likes', my likes, you don't even know me?
I have never said that all wannabees want to buy their way in however I would estimate that between 75% and 90% of those that I speak with are prepared to self sponsor a type rating.
And once again, I don't vend type ratings and any opinion I have voiced is advice, non profit making advice!
I don't vend type ratings so I don't make money and just what are 'your likes', my likes, you don't even know me?
I have never said that all wannabees want to buy their way in however I would estimate that between 75% and 90% of those that I speak with are prepared to self sponsor a type rating.
And once again, I don't vend type ratings and any opinion I have voiced is advice, non profit making advice!
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But seriously, do you think that ever will happen? Fresh fATPL pilots follow the stream. If buying a TR ends up in a position I'll go for that. IF there was a way to unite all unemployed pilots in some kind of noble strike against buying a TR that would ofcourse be the most beneficial solution. Supply and demand. That's what controls the market. Flight schools are popping up all over the globe supplying new pilots every week. Being a pilot is no longer the glorious proffesion it used to be. The fact that there is more supply than demand combined with the large training cost a TR course brings, it is not odd that you have to pay for the TR. But ofcourse you have to be wary. I would never do a TR solo without a company having expressed their interest in me....
Last edited by Olof; 22nd Apr 2006 at 16:15.
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I have to agree with Olof on this one.
Zooloflyer, do you really believe that I should have turned down my job offer because it involved a SSTR? If I had, you would most likely have taken it instead. This is the balance that maintains this trend. Effectively, you want all unemployed pilots to go on strike?! That doesn't just sound rediculous
/LnS
Zooloflyer, do you really believe that I should have turned down my job offer because it involved a SSTR? If I had, you would most likely have taken it instead. This is the balance that maintains this trend. Effectively, you want all unemployed pilots to go on strike?! That doesn't just sound rediculous
/LnS
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2 points
There are a group of people who could do something. I forward a motion that BALPA + the other JAA state unions could unite and advise the industry that no more self funded type rated pilots would be tolerated by its members. Is that going to happen? No bloody chance. So whats the alternative?
I agree with Olof completely. We hoard of unemployed can't rebel, we have no organisation, no unity. All we can rely on is honour among thieves, would everyone sign up? Does every fATPL holder even use PPRuNe? However I do see merit in Zoolo's sentiment, its just its feasibility and the logistics involved that makes it unworkable.
Where does it stop however? If we're going on strike with respect to TR's why not extend it to cover everything past our PPL's? It would've saved me the best part of 20k, it would have been nice if I got an airline to pay for that.
Now onto my second point, slight tangent but I hope it may bring the thread back on topic and steer it away from the acrimony.
In the wake of everything that's happened in aviation in the past 5 years, its safe to say any newly qualified pilot thinking without emotion has considered if the benefits of a self funded TR outweigh the cons. Some decide quickly (for financial or moral reasons seem to be theme), some mull over it for a while (thinking objectively but with an element of risk and further financial burden attached too) and some take the leap of faith for some it pays off, for the rest it doesn't.
We can't tell on here how successful it is, a number of pilots when they get that first job leave the wannabes forum long in the distance, like their comfort blankets or bicycle stabilisers. Plus there is no indication of how a TR rated pilot performed at his/her interview. The may have had a shocker, that isn't factored into the argument on here but pride and ego sometimes cloud objectivity.
What is safe to say is that we are all relatively well educated, most people would have stayed on for the maximum high school education, a high proportion of that would have went on to University too. I would suggest that we have the ability to give a subject ample consideration and merit before we form our opinions. Sometimes emotions take over on here possibly due to the anonymity the internet allows, the inability to convey facial expression, inflection, tone or delivery to a statement which can be done face to face or even over the phone to a degree, would not cause offence like it is perceived on here all to frequently (I'll hold my hands up and say I've been guilty of this for a number of months after joining).
I'm neither pro or anti getting your own TR, I am however pro-choice and won't castigate someone for suggesting it as a valid alternative or on the other hand I won't condone calling people who undertake it as prostitutes.
When reading someones posts, it may be worthwhile looking at their profile to see where they are coming from. I personally have a hard time finding much wrong with Scroggs' views (except for the A320rider thread) because I respect his experience and the fact I reckon he views no less than 80% of what is posted in the wannabes forums. I also think based on what he's written so far in this and other threads, that more people should take some notice of what Phileas is saying too.
Essentially what I'm now getting at is its all about 'Social Proof', it can't be demonstrated on here unless you investigate and research someones posts and background (granted they can be fictitious but I hope to come to rounded conclusions based on evidence supplied to me). Its easy in day to day life, you can gauge demeanour, bearing, wisdom through age, how erudite they are, etc. but alas, it needs some work by members on here.
If we are going to organise a strike, can I suggest if we do a sit-in, we pick a Brazil vs. Sweden ladies beach volleyball tournament?
I agree with Olof completely. We hoard of unemployed can't rebel, we have no organisation, no unity. All we can rely on is honour among thieves, would everyone sign up? Does every fATPL holder even use PPRuNe? However I do see merit in Zoolo's sentiment, its just its feasibility and the logistics involved that makes it unworkable.
Where does it stop however? If we're going on strike with respect to TR's why not extend it to cover everything past our PPL's? It would've saved me the best part of 20k, it would have been nice if I got an airline to pay for that.
Now onto my second point, slight tangent but I hope it may bring the thread back on topic and steer it away from the acrimony.
In the wake of everything that's happened in aviation in the past 5 years, its safe to say any newly qualified pilot thinking without emotion has considered if the benefits of a self funded TR outweigh the cons. Some decide quickly (for financial or moral reasons seem to be theme), some mull over it for a while (thinking objectively but with an element of risk and further financial burden attached too) and some take the leap of faith for some it pays off, for the rest it doesn't.
We can't tell on here how successful it is, a number of pilots when they get that first job leave the wannabes forum long in the distance, like their comfort blankets or bicycle stabilisers. Plus there is no indication of how a TR rated pilot performed at his/her interview. The may have had a shocker, that isn't factored into the argument on here but pride and ego sometimes cloud objectivity.
What is safe to say is that we are all relatively well educated, most people would have stayed on for the maximum high school education, a high proportion of that would have went on to University too. I would suggest that we have the ability to give a subject ample consideration and merit before we form our opinions. Sometimes emotions take over on here possibly due to the anonymity the internet allows, the inability to convey facial expression, inflection, tone or delivery to a statement which can be done face to face or even over the phone to a degree, would not cause offence like it is perceived on here all to frequently (I'll hold my hands up and say I've been guilty of this for a number of months after joining).
I'm neither pro or anti getting your own TR, I am however pro-choice and won't castigate someone for suggesting it as a valid alternative or on the other hand I won't condone calling people who undertake it as prostitutes.
When reading someones posts, it may be worthwhile looking at their profile to see where they are coming from. I personally have a hard time finding much wrong with Scroggs' views (except for the A320rider thread) because I respect his experience and the fact I reckon he views no less than 80% of what is posted in the wannabes forums. I also think based on what he's written so far in this and other threads, that more people should take some notice of what Phileas is saying too.
Essentially what I'm now getting at is its all about 'Social Proof', it can't be demonstrated on here unless you investigate and research someones posts and background (granted they can be fictitious but I hope to come to rounded conclusions based on evidence supplied to me). Its easy in day to day life, you can gauge demeanour, bearing, wisdom through age, how erudite they are, etc. but alas, it needs some work by members on here.
If we are going to organise a strike, can I suggest if we do a sit-in, we pick a Brazil vs. Sweden ladies beach volleyball tournament?
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This is always an emotional topic, and much frustration and anger always gets vented whenever it comes up. Frankly, the vast majority of that emotional energy is misdirected and thus wasted.
Self-sponsored type rating courses have existed ever since there was a commercial aviation industry, and they will not go away. Nor should they; they are a legitimate and perfectly moral way of achieving a speculative qualification. They, and their providers, are no different to the Open University, for instance, who exist to allow mature and otherwise unqualified people achieve a qualification which might improve their employability. They exist because there is a demand (and not just from low-houred wannabes), and the free market will always satisfy a commercial demand.
In fact, what is the difference between a SSTR provider and a CPL school? Both provide the training to achieve an aviation qualification which is intended to make the student employable within the industry, at a cost which provides a living for the training provider and which the buyer is prepared to pay. Even those SSTRs that provide an element of line training are no different. The only variable is the perception of how necessary such training is to obtain that job, and who should provide and pay for it.
A great many aviation wannabes have no experience of professional fields outside of flying, and assume that this is the only industry where an ever-greater proportion of training costs have been passed to the individual. Well, I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Almost all professions require a large financial investment from their novitiates, and aviation is no exception - and arguably not the most expensive, either. Nor is aviation unique in its rejection of many of those who've paid for that training, though the rate of rejection may be higher in aviation than other fields.
The only area where the moral argument becomes a real issue is those few (largely US) 'co-pilot' programmes that expect you to pay to fly well beyond the normal type- and line-training period. These programmes are using fully-qualified pilots to operate their commercial schedules with no element of training and expecting them to pay for the privilege purely because they gain hours, and this is right out of order, and effectively puts people out of work (the people who should be being paid for that work). Any of you who sign up to one of these schemes should understand that you are paying to work, and doing it at the expense of people's jobs. That, at least in Europe, is on the borderline of legality and is certainly immoral - on the part of both the provider and the consumer. Line-training schemes, on the other hand, are not. They may be of limited use in the job-hunting process, or at least not as useful as their providers would like you to believe, but they are in no way immoral or unjustifiable.
Before any of you make any move to spend money on an SSTR/LT scheme, look very carefully at the market and the scheme on offer. Despite what has been said by at least one contributor here, there are never any guarantees of employment before the training is completed. There are very often no suggestions of employment at all; what you are paying for is a period of training, not an introduction to an employer. Are you better off having done an SSTR/LT package? Well, certainly not financially, and probably not in the job market, but it's your money (or at least I hope it is) - you spend it how you like.
Scroggs
Self-sponsored type rating courses have existed ever since there was a commercial aviation industry, and they will not go away. Nor should they; they are a legitimate and perfectly moral way of achieving a speculative qualification. They, and their providers, are no different to the Open University, for instance, who exist to allow mature and otherwise unqualified people achieve a qualification which might improve their employability. They exist because there is a demand (and not just from low-houred wannabes), and the free market will always satisfy a commercial demand.
In fact, what is the difference between a SSTR provider and a CPL school? Both provide the training to achieve an aviation qualification which is intended to make the student employable within the industry, at a cost which provides a living for the training provider and which the buyer is prepared to pay. Even those SSTRs that provide an element of line training are no different. The only variable is the perception of how necessary such training is to obtain that job, and who should provide and pay for it.
A great many aviation wannabes have no experience of professional fields outside of flying, and assume that this is the only industry where an ever-greater proportion of training costs have been passed to the individual. Well, I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Almost all professions require a large financial investment from their novitiates, and aviation is no exception - and arguably not the most expensive, either. Nor is aviation unique in its rejection of many of those who've paid for that training, though the rate of rejection may be higher in aviation than other fields.
The only area where the moral argument becomes a real issue is those few (largely US) 'co-pilot' programmes that expect you to pay to fly well beyond the normal type- and line-training period. These programmes are using fully-qualified pilots to operate their commercial schedules with no element of training and expecting them to pay for the privilege purely because they gain hours, and this is right out of order, and effectively puts people out of work (the people who should be being paid for that work). Any of you who sign up to one of these schemes should understand that you are paying to work, and doing it at the expense of people's jobs. That, at least in Europe, is on the borderline of legality and is certainly immoral - on the part of both the provider and the consumer. Line-training schemes, on the other hand, are not. They may be of limited use in the job-hunting process, or at least not as useful as their providers would like you to believe, but they are in no way immoral or unjustifiable.
Before any of you make any move to spend money on an SSTR/LT scheme, look very carefully at the market and the scheme on offer. Despite what has been said by at least one contributor here, there are never any guarantees of employment before the training is completed. There are very often no suggestions of employment at all; what you are paying for is a period of training, not an introduction to an employer. Are you better off having done an SSTR/LT package? Well, certainly not financially, and probably not in the job market, but it's your money (or at least I hope it is) - you spend it how you like.
Scroggs
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Type ratings - background info
Wannabes and newpilots,
Thought these links might be of use to those wondering what is in store for you when you finally get your first type rating course date.
Hope they are of use
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/mai...e/75train1.htm
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/mai...e/75train2.htm
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/mai...e/75train3.htm
Boxjockey99
Thought these links might be of use to those wondering what is in store for you when you finally get your first type rating course date.
Hope they are of use
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/mai...e/75train1.htm
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/mai...e/75train2.htm
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/mai...e/75train3.htm
Boxjockey99