CAA/JAA Licence Admin Problems (Applications, Paperwork, etc)
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Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
I've never signed a student pilot's logbook. The only time I'm aware of, as an instructor, that I need to sign a logbook is if the flight is the bi-annual 1-hour-with-an-instructor flight for revalidating the SEP rating.
However, if you log P1US, the commander of the aircraft (i.e. the examiner for a successful skills test) must sign your logbook. And when applying for any license, rating, etc, you should get your school to stamp your logbook, and the CFI to sign it, to confirm that the hours are correct.
As for logging club checkouts, when I do checkouts I log P1 and the person doing the checkout logs PUT. This is not because I am hour-building (even if I was hour-building, the small number of hours of checkouts I do would make negligable difference). It's because I am Captain of the aircraft. If I am unhappy with the way the person sitting next to me is handling the aircraft, as Captain I have the legal right to take the controls from him. On the other hand, if he logs P1 I don't have that legal right any more.
FFF
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However, if you log P1US, the commander of the aircraft (i.e. the examiner for a successful skills test) must sign your logbook. And when applying for any license, rating, etc, you should get your school to stamp your logbook, and the CFI to sign it, to confirm that the hours are correct.
As for logging club checkouts, when I do checkouts I log P1 and the person doing the checkout logs PUT. This is not because I am hour-building (even if I was hour-building, the small number of hours of checkouts I do would make negligable difference). It's because I am Captain of the aircraft. If I am unhappy with the way the person sitting next to me is handling the aircraft, as Captain I have the legal right to take the controls from him. On the other hand, if he logs P1 I don't have that legal right any more.
FFF
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Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
FFF - re your first paragraph, is it not the SEP rating that you have to sign rather than the logbook?
Re your last paragraph, are you sure that's correct? You've more experience than me, but that wasn't my understanding of what's P1.
Re your last paragraph, are you sure that's correct? You've more experience than me, but that wasn't my understanding of what's P1.
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Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
All FAA Dual and Exam flts will be signed by the Instructor, also all your BFR and class rating will be signed too. When I started flying in the UK, the insturctor told no we don't sign log books, but when you finish the training, the school should stamp you log book at the end of the training.
I hope this helps, also since the CAA sent back your log books and everything back, as for the track no. since it is registered mail.
I asked for it and i had to track it down.
Flying Aggie
I hope this helps, also since the CAA sent back your log books and everything back, as for the track no. since it is registered mail.
I asked for it and i had to track it down.
Flying Aggie
Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
FFF is completely correct. Instructor is PIC, other person is Pu/t.
Only an examiner may sign the 'Ratings - Certificate of Revalidation' page in the licence, not an instructor. The 2-yearly 1hr training flight must be signed as such by the FI who conducted it, so that when the examiner checks the log book it can be seen that the training flight was indeed conducted.
Only an examiner may sign the 'Ratings - Certificate of Revalidation' page in the licence, not an instructor. The 2-yearly 1hr training flight must be signed as such by the FI who conducted it, so that when the examiner checks the log book it can be seen that the training flight was indeed conducted.
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Resolved....
Well, apparently "lost in the post" translates as "lost and forgotten about in a pile on some CAA desk". (Or "pending" as they put it.)
Anyway...apparently every flight of a course should be signed by the instructor
, but this is often let go if the rest of the application is OK. The thing is I'd also entered a date of a partial pass, rather than the re-test pass, and they couldn't accept both these errors. (Legal document and all that).
Thankfully they've reconsidered the application due to the "pending" and have sent the license out this morning. Phew!
Thanks for advice and discussion.
Anyway...apparently every flight of a course should be signed by the instructor
, but this is often let go if the rest of the application is OK. The thing is I'd also entered a date of a partial pass, rather than the re-test pass, and they couldn't accept both these errors. (Legal document and all that).Thankfully they've reconsidered the application due to the "pending" and have sent the license out this morning. Phew!
Thanks for advice and discussion.
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Re: Resolved....
I would have thought that the REQUIRED signatures were, indeed, provided to the CAA.
The examiners for your flight tests (CPL and I/R) signed the pass certificates (of which you have thw white copies) and submitted them to the CAA to prove you had passed the flight tests.
The 170A signatories at the schools gave the examiner(s) a signature to confirm that you had completed the course of training with their school and that all was in order for you to complete the test.
If the CAA examiner for the I/R didn't sign your logbook then either it isn't REQUIRED or it was the most amazing co-incidence that YOU should be the only one he/she "forgot" to sign.
I've had it before where various members of the CAA staff have their own interpretation of the rules and requirements.
Had a night qualification application rejected because the candidate had only taken 50 minutes to do his five solo take-offs and full stop landings.
I've also had to postpone a flight test when a candidate was assured by the CAA that he did not need a UK Radio Licence in order to sit a UK CPL Skill Test.
The examiners for your flight tests (CPL and I/R) signed the pass certificates (of which you have thw white copies) and submitted them to the CAA to prove you had passed the flight tests.
The 170A signatories at the schools gave the examiner(s) a signature to confirm that you had completed the course of training with their school and that all was in order for you to complete the test.
If the CAA examiner for the I/R didn't sign your logbook then either it isn't REQUIRED or it was the most amazing co-incidence that YOU should be the only one he/she "forgot" to sign.
I've had it before where various members of the CAA staff have their own interpretation of the rules and requirements.
Had a night qualification application rejected because the candidate had only taken 50 minutes to do his five solo take-offs and full stop landings.
I've also had to postpone a flight test when a candidate was assured by the CAA that he did not need a UK Radio Licence in order to sit a UK CPL Skill Test.
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Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
Yup, although earlier on the phone I was told that all these signatures were required I have now in fact just received the license in the post with some clarification. (They must have sent it yesterday).
They've included a photocopy of their guidelines and highlighted the bit that I "failed" on:
I would have thought that the extra sheets of paper with the breakdown of my hours for each course (signed by CFI) would have been enough.. apparantly not, or perhaps they were in a bad mood the day they reviewed my application and were being unnecessarily picky.
They've included a photocopy of their guidelines and highlighted the bit that I "failed" on:
On completion of any course of training, the Chief Flying Instructor (or his representatives) should certify the student's logbook as a true record of the training completed.
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Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
My log book was signed and certified as correct at the end of my PPL. I even had to take that and the copy that was to goto the CAA to the local Cop Shop to get them to counter sign it to say that it was indeed correct !!!.
This was in Sarf Africa though.
This was in Sarf Africa though.
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Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
Whenever I do anything with an instructor (flying that is) I always get them to sign my logbook. Then you avoid situations like this.
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Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
For the record, I have the following signed off in my logbook:
PPL qualifying X-country flight
PPL Test
PPL Logbook entries verified (by CFI)
UC/VP certified
IMC test
Australian Bi-annual flight review
FAA Bi-annual flight review
CPL Test
MEP Test
I don't have an entry for my IR test or my 170A (for both CPL & IR). I was so excited when I passed my IR I forgot to ask. Mind you, the examiner sends off the test result forms, with the 170A certificate, so I can't see why you need it for the CPL or IR anyway.
PPL qualifying X-country flight
PPL Test
PPL Logbook entries verified (by CFI)
UC/VP certified
IMC test
Australian Bi-annual flight review
FAA Bi-annual flight review
CPL Test
MEP Test
I don't have an entry for my IR test or my 170A (for both CPL & IR). I was so excited when I passed my IR I forgot to ask. Mind you, the examiner sends off the test result forms, with the 170A certificate, so I can't see why you need it for the CPL or IR anyway.
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Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
The UK CAA say "electronic" logbooks are fine - provided you send them a print out of the records and not expect them to read the stuff electronically.
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Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
The only signatures I had in my log books is the one for PPL course complete.
And a sign off from the school for completing CPL/IR/MEP/FI training courses.
The americans do seem to be very over keen with instructors signing bloody everything. And some of the prats seem to take great joy out of adding things usually in a completly different pen colour than black. One **** tried to use purple. Even though I had a black one already provided.
Personally I had my proper log book under lock and key and had a gash one for US instructors to scribble in. Transfered the hours over into the proper one on the plane home. Just make sure you have the BFR in the log book you are carrying on the plane with the log book looking like its your second one.
As an instructor I have only signed logbooks for the 1 hour flight with an instructor and differences training using the stickers they sent out.
As for the old P1 on a dual check. Its up to the instructor, personally after a while when the novelty of having to add 10+ flights a day to my log book had worn off, I used to ask the punter if they needed P1 time or not. If it was for the 1 hour with an instructor they didn't have any choice. If they were a wannbie I used to let them log it P1 as long as they didn't need my input. And it seemed because I had actually asked the customer they usually said they wanted to log it PUT and never bitched and complained when they needed a check flight.
MJ
And a sign off from the school for completing CPL/IR/MEP/FI training courses.
The americans do seem to be very over keen with instructors signing bloody everything. And some of the prats seem to take great joy out of adding things usually in a completly different pen colour than black. One **** tried to use purple. Even though I had a black one already provided.
Personally I had my proper log book under lock and key and had a gash one for US instructors to scribble in. Transfered the hours over into the proper one on the plane home. Just make sure you have the BFR in the log book you are carrying on the plane with the log book looking like its your second one.
As an instructor I have only signed logbooks for the 1 hour flight with an instructor and differences training using the stickers they sent out.
As for the old P1 on a dual check. Its up to the instructor, personally after a while when the novelty of having to add 10+ flights a day to my log book had worn off, I used to ask the punter if they needed P1 time or not. If it was for the 1 hour with an instructor they didn't have any choice. If they were a wannbie I used to let them log it P1 as long as they didn't need my input. And it seemed because I had actually asked the customer they usually said they wanted to log it PUT and never bitched and complained when they needed a check flight.
MJ
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Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
Any flight tests should be signed off (type ratings, BFRs, skill tests, and other completed ratings).
Any I/F time in a simulator must be signed.
In the UK, any stalling lessons must also be signed off (unless changed under JAA now?)
It is not a requirement to have each and every lesson in your history signed off, however you certainly are then covered!
Any I/F time in a simulator must be signed.
In the UK, any stalling lessons must also be signed off (unless changed under JAA now?)
It is not a requirement to have each and every lesson in your history signed off, however you certainly are then covered!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
DeltaT, are you talking about UK rules?
Only successful tests need to be signed off. It's not the test that's being signed off, but the PICUS time, and only successful flights are logged as PICUS.
None of my simulator time was signed off for my IR or my MCC.
Not any more. Pre-JAR there used to be a requirement for a specified minimum number of hours stalling on the PPL sylabus, but no more.
I agree with that!
FFF
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Any flight tests should be signed off
Any I/F time in a simulator must be signed
any stalling lessons must also be signed off
It is not a requirement to have each and every lesson in your history signed off, however you certainly are then covered!
FFF
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Re: CPL/IR licence application rejected (no signatures in logbook)
One point mentioned earlier, pilots logging P1 after completing a dual check ! The CAA wont accept any P1 unless it was from a successful "skill test"....I had mine sent back and needed to do another 10 hours P1 to bring my hours up to 100 P1 for the CPL to be issued... mis-informed by many an instructor over the years !!
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CAA ATPL Fees?
hey PPRUNE,
heading over to US for CPL MER and a bit of IR and rest of IR in UK
prices on sites are excluding CAA fees , I understand that. Can anyone out there give us a rough approxiation of the "NOT included fees I can expect"
e.g. CPL Flight Test, IR Flight Test Fees etc
something tells me that they could be bigger than I realise...
thanks
HighLow
heading over to US for CPL MER and a bit of IR and rest of IR in UK
prices on sites are excluding CAA fees , I understand that. Can anyone out there give us a rough approxiation of the "NOT included fees I can expect"
e.g. CPL Flight Test, IR Flight Test Fees etc
something tells me that they could be bigger than I realise...
thanks
HighLow
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re: CAA ATPL Fees?
Current CPL and IR Test Fees payable to the CAA are £691!
This of course excludes the hire of the aeroplane for test.
CPL test can be approx 1hr30min, likewise 1hr45min for the IR. Depending on where you do the IR of course, as if you are not in Bristol, Leeds, Oxford or the other CAA exam airfield (Cranfield?) there will be a transit flight to the Airfield to meet the examiner from your FTO's base airfield. This will either be part of the IR you pay for or may be chargeable. Solo Hire of a Typical light twin (PA34, Be76, GA7)in the UK is around £250 per hour.
Hope this helps
This of course excludes the hire of the aeroplane for test.
CPL test can be approx 1hr30min, likewise 1hr45min for the IR. Depending on where you do the IR of course, as if you are not in Bristol, Leeds, Oxford or the other CAA exam airfield (Cranfield?) there will be a transit flight to the Airfield to meet the examiner from your FTO's base airfield. This will either be part of the IR you pay for or may be chargeable. Solo Hire of a Typical light twin (PA34, Be76, GA7)in the UK is around £250 per hour.
Hope this helps
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re: CAA ATPL Fees?
thanks combine for the info
holy ****...691 for the licence fee, jaysus, anyways.....
the mail i got off the school regarding prices have confused be slighty;
it states;
JAR endorsed school may i add
CPL 25 hour course $4995 14 to 21 days, ( we recommend doing this in the single and then doing the MEP).Aircraft for test $175 per hour 2 hours.
MEP 6 hours $1995 aircraft fro test $200 Test fee $250.
the test fee of 250$ at the end, would that be on top of the 691UK pounds (1200USDollars).....where did they get 250 dollars from??
any ideas?
HighLow
holy ****...691 for the licence fee, jaysus, anyways.....
the mail i got off the school regarding prices have confused be slighty;
it states;
JAR endorsed school may i add
CPL 25 hour course $4995 14 to 21 days, ( we recommend doing this in the single and then doing the MEP).Aircraft for test $175 per hour 2 hours.
MEP 6 hours $1995 aircraft fro test $200 Test fee $250.
the test fee of 250$ at the end, would that be on top of the 691UK pounds (1200USDollars).....where did they get 250 dollars from??
any ideas?
HighLow
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re: CAA ATPL Fees?
cheers slow,
makes sense, the Mock test fee! understand
but christ, 691 quid for the test, fell of my chair when i got a look at that on their website
thanks guys
HighLow
makes sense, the Mock test fee! understand
but christ, 691 quid for the test, fell of my chair when i got a look at that on their website
thanks guys
HighLow