CPL Cross-Country Qualifying Flight
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CPL Cross-Country Qualifying Flight
I was presented with a new twist on the question of the 300 mile CPL cross-country qualifying flight. Wondered what you would vote for - based on your interpretation of Lasors 2006.
D 1.2 (D) JAR-FCL CPL(A) MODULAR COURSE FLYING TRAINING/EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS
“20 hours cross country flight time as Pilot-in-command, including, a VFR cross-country flight of at least 540km (300nm) in the course of which full-stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodromes of departure shall be made.”
Imagine two scenarios.
First one: Depart airfield A at 0740 on day 1 and fly 44 miles East to airfield B arriving at 0845. Depart again at 0900 and return to A. 88miles flown and 2 hrs 5 minutes logged.
Have a four hour break then depart A at 1400, fly 131 miles South to airfield C, arriving at 1555. Depart C at 1620 and fly 145 miles further South to airfield D, arriving at 1815.
Total for the day (sunup to sundown) is 364 miles but did include a return to base airfield part way through. The A-C-D flight being only 276 miles.
Does it count as qualifying?
Second scenario: Same A-C-D flight on day one. Remember, departed A at 1400, arrived at D at 1815 - having flown 276 miles.
Pre-planned night stop - so off to the hotel for a beer and a kip.
Next morning, depart D at 0900 and go back, via C, to A, arriving at 1315. Another 276 miles flown. Total within last 24 hours was 552 miles but did include a night stop.
Does it count as qualifying?
D 1.2 (D) JAR-FCL CPL(A) MODULAR COURSE FLYING TRAINING/EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS
“20 hours cross country flight time as Pilot-in-command, including, a VFR cross-country flight of at least 540km (300nm) in the course of which full-stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodromes of departure shall be made.”
Imagine two scenarios.
First one: Depart airfield A at 0740 on day 1 and fly 44 miles East to airfield B arriving at 0845. Depart again at 0900 and return to A. 88miles flown and 2 hrs 5 minutes logged.
Have a four hour break then depart A at 1400, fly 131 miles South to airfield C, arriving at 1555. Depart C at 1620 and fly 145 miles further South to airfield D, arriving at 1815.
Total for the day (sunup to sundown) is 364 miles but did include a return to base airfield part way through. The A-C-D flight being only 276 miles.
Does it count as qualifying?
Second scenario: Same A-C-D flight on day one. Remember, departed A at 1400, arrived at D at 1815 - having flown 276 miles.
Pre-planned night stop - so off to the hotel for a beer and a kip.
Next morning, depart D at 0900 and go back, via C, to A, arriving at 1315. Another 276 miles flown. Total within last 24 hours was 552 miles but did include a night stop.
Does it count as qualifying?
Gizajob
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That's a good one. would love to know what the CAA think (bet they don't know either!
).To add to the confusion - if you define a flight as starting when the a/c moves for the purpose of take-off and finishing when it stops for the purpose of disembarkation (or whatever it is), wouldn't getting out anywhere mean it wasn't a x-country flight but x-country flights and therefore wouldn't qualify?
I vote that both your scenarios qualify, for what it's worth.
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My interpretation is that Scenario A is acceptable.
However, I am pretty sure Scenario B is not acceptable - I recall seeing a training memo in December of 05 (or whatever they are called) stating that the only reason over night qualifying cross countries would be accepted was if the stop was due to unforseen technical reasons.
Someone at an FTO in the UK would have to confirm the latter - or anywhere - I assume they forward the memos to all FTOs??
Safe Flying.
However, I am pretty sure Scenario B is not acceptable - I recall seeing a training memo in December of 05 (or whatever they are called) stating that the only reason over night qualifying cross countries would be accepted was if the stop was due to unforseen technical reasons.
Someone at an FTO in the UK would have to confirm the latter - or anywhere - I assume they forward the memos to all FTOs??
Safe Flying.
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Keygrip
To answer the second part of your question first - no it does not count if you do not do it all on one day (unless there is a valid reason why you did not do so, e.g. weather, tech problems).
I checked this with the CAA last year and I was told that the one day rule had been implemented early last year although the change has not been included in (e.g.) LASORS.
The first part of your question is not so clearcut. The rule does say "a cross country flight in the course of which full stop landings at two airfields other than the airfield of departure shall be made". In theory, your example would therefore be valid, but I do not think I would take that risk!
Linda
To answer the second part of your question first - no it does not count if you do not do it all on one day (unless there is a valid reason why you did not do so, e.g. weather, tech problems).
I checked this with the CAA last year and I was told that the one day rule had been implemented early last year although the change has not been included in (e.g.) LASORS.
The first part of your question is not so clearcut. The rule does say "a cross country flight in the course of which full stop landings at two airfields other than the airfield of departure shall be made". In theory, your example would therefore be valid, but I do not think I would take that risk!
Linda
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I would say neither,
Certainly trip one does not seem to qualify. First journey could be seen as any cross country flight and totally independent. Second journey comes close but short of the 300nm.
My interpretation is a round trip, taking off from A, going to B and C then back to A and must be 300nm +.
I don't know about the night stop.....
I'm off to do mine in a few weeks, weather permitting, but will do it in a single day and NOt return to base until 300nm have been flown.
Still, it all counts doesn't it
Certainly trip one does not seem to qualify. First journey could be seen as any cross country flight and totally independent. Second journey comes close but short of the 300nm.
My interpretation is a round trip, taking off from A, going to B and C then back to A and must be 300nm +.
I don't know about the night stop.....
I'm off to do mine in a few weeks, weather permitting, but will do it in a single day and NOt return to base until 300nm have been flown.
Still, it all counts doesn't it
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Two "stupid" questions:
1. Does the flight have to end back at A, or will a flight from A - B - C of more than 300 nm count?
2. Do the airfields have to be within the UK, or would a trip to France count?
1. Does the flight have to end back at A, or will a flight from A - B - C of more than 300 nm count?
2. Do the airfields have to be within the UK, or would a trip to France count?
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As they say... "the devil is in the detail". For what it's worth, this is my humble opinion.
In answer to "Andy R" and "What's a Girdler" - I wouldn't worry about exceeding the requirements. So long as the requirement of at least 300nm is satisfied, and the trip includes two full stop landings at aerodromes different from the aerodromes of departure, then the requirements are satisfied - wherever those aerodromes may be, and whether or not you eventually return to the point of origin.
I think the way to interpret this is to look at the phraseology.
Define "the aerodromes of departure".
Note the use of a plural, "aerodromes". This means that each take-off, (a: Point of Origin, b: Aerodrome 1, c: Aerodrome 2 etc), is, (or becomes), an "aerodrome of departure". So all your subsequent landings, (on this cross-country flight (singular) of at least 300nm), must be at a different aerodrome to any of the ones (plural) you have previously departed from.
This rules out Scenario 1 from KeyGrip's Question, since the cross country included a landing at the point of origin, which was a previous point of departure for the sortie. So I would support "PowderMonkey's" view that this in practice means a "round trip", although I would say it is optional whether the airborne section of the return to base leg is included in the 300nm total or not.
I would have thought Scenario 2 (with the overnight stop) would be ruled out mainly for one and potentially two reasons...
a) There is no such thing as Night Time VFR in JAA world, (albeit there is in FAA land), so for qualifying as "a VFR cross-country flight" (singluar - meaning a single sortie), they could eliminate any time logged as "Night" as not satisfying the "VFR" requirement for JAA purposes. Now the times KeyGrip gave, would not in themselves imply any night flight, but then how can a single VFR cross-country sortie be said to continuous throughout the hours of darkness, with the plane sat on the ground?
This is not to say, however, that a Sortie from A-B-C which satisfies the requirments in total, could not include a night stop at C before returning to A in the morning. That should be valid.
b) Even if the whole trip was conducted in a single day under VFR, having flown 276nm from A-C-D does not (obviously) satisfy the 300nm requirement. The trip then continues back to A via C. If, as KeyGrip says, C was 145 miles from D, and a landing were made there on the way back, then I would say the requirements would be fulfilled.
But if we change the scenario slightly, and move C to less than 24 miles from D (say A-C = 256 and C-D = 20, total still = 276), then Landing again at C on the way back would invalidate the requirement: "...300nm in the course of which... (land) ...at an aerodrome different to any of the aerodromes of departure".
In answer to "Andy R" and "What's a Girdler" - I wouldn't worry about exceeding the requirements. So long as the requirement of at least 300nm is satisfied, and the trip includes two full stop landings at aerodromes different from the aerodromes of departure, then the requirements are satisfied - wherever those aerodromes may be, and whether or not you eventually return to the point of origin.
I think the way to interpret this is to look at the phraseology.
Define "the aerodromes of departure".
Note the use of a plural, "aerodromes". This means that each take-off, (a: Point of Origin, b: Aerodrome 1, c: Aerodrome 2 etc), is, (or becomes), an "aerodrome of departure". So all your subsequent landings, (on this cross-country flight (singular) of at least 300nm), must be at a different aerodrome to any of the ones (plural) you have previously departed from.
This rules out Scenario 1 from KeyGrip's Question, since the cross country included a landing at the point of origin, which was a previous point of departure for the sortie. So I would support "PowderMonkey's" view that this in practice means a "round trip", although I would say it is optional whether the airborne section of the return to base leg is included in the 300nm total or not.
I would have thought Scenario 2 (with the overnight stop) would be ruled out mainly for one and potentially two reasons...
a) There is no such thing as Night Time VFR in JAA world, (albeit there is in FAA land), so for qualifying as "a VFR cross-country flight" (singluar - meaning a single sortie), they could eliminate any time logged as "Night" as not satisfying the "VFR" requirement for JAA purposes. Now the times KeyGrip gave, would not in themselves imply any night flight, but then how can a single VFR cross-country sortie be said to continuous throughout the hours of darkness, with the plane sat on the ground?
This is not to say, however, that a Sortie from A-B-C which satisfies the requirments in total, could not include a night stop at C before returning to A in the morning. That should be valid.
b) Even if the whole trip was conducted in a single day under VFR, having flown 276nm from A-C-D does not (obviously) satisfy the 300nm requirement. The trip then continues back to A via C. If, as KeyGrip says, C was 145 miles from D, and a landing were made there on the way back, then I would say the requirements would be fulfilled.
But if we change the scenario slightly, and move C to less than 24 miles from D (say A-C = 256 and C-D = 20, total still = 276), then Landing again at C on the way back would invalidate the requirement: "...300nm in the course of which... (land) ...at an aerodrome different to any of the aerodromes of departure".
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This is not to say, however, that a Sortie from A-B-C which satisfies the requirments in total, could not include a night stop at C before returning to A in the morning. That should be valid.
And as stated by Linda Scenario 1 is technically valid but I wouldn't if I were you...
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I would have thought Scenario 1 would be out too - the flight should be completed under a single plan and I would have thought the four hours on the ground would have prevented that happening due to the currency requirements relating to briefings and notifications etc.
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Well no - what happens if you stop for lunch? - most airfields have Wx, NOTAM facilities. Don't over read into it - yes there are some airmanship considerations but all that matters is what's in the docs - and although its a loose translation of the regs it still abides by them - but again I wouldn't recommend it!
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The JAA requirement eminates from ICAO Annex 1:
20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot-incommand
including a cross-country flight totalling not
less than 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which
full-stop landings at two different aerodromes shall be
made;
The CAA accepts a series of flights conducted in the course of a "day" or a 24-hour period, that total or exceed 540 Km (300 nm) (540Km is 294 miles), that conduct fullstop landings at two aerodromes other than the point of departure. Anything else is irrelevant.
20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot-incommand
including a cross-country flight totalling not
less than 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which
full-stop landings at two different aerodromes shall be
made;
The CAA accepts a series of flights conducted in the course of a "day" or a 24-hour period, that total or exceed 540 Km (300 nm) (540Km is 294 miles), that conduct fullstop landings at two aerodromes other than the point of departure. Anything else is irrelevant.
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I still maintain that Keygrips scenario 1 does not qualify, these will be seen as two separate sorties, neither of which meets the requirements.
Keep it simple guys: depart home base, travel to B, STOP, have tea/refuel etc. Depart B, travel to C, STOP, more tea/food etc. Depart C and go back to original departure point. All in same day, cover 300nm +, must be done in the airspace you are training in ( ie, I cannot cross the Scottish FIR, must be done in Irish airspace only from what I have been told).
Simple..but long and boring.......bring another PPL with you?
Keep it simple guys: depart home base, travel to B, STOP, have tea/refuel etc. Depart B, travel to C, STOP, more tea/food etc. Depart C and go back to original departure point. All in same day, cover 300nm +, must be done in the airspace you are training in ( ie, I cannot cross the Scottish FIR, must be done in Irish airspace only from what I have been told).
Simple..but long and boring.......bring another PPL with you?
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So if what Noggin says is true (and dont have books with me as at work so cant confirm!) then if a '24hr period' is acceptable then you could have an overnight stop and be within the rules. Can anyone confirm?
Have to say, I was always under the impression that it had to be done in the same day.
Another thing to remember is that it is 'point-to-point distance' between the airfields, that is if you have two airfields say 50miles apart, you could not put a dog leg in your flight plan to make it 100miles.
Julian.
Have to say, I was always under the impression that it had to be done in the same day.
Another thing to remember is that it is 'point-to-point distance' between the airfields, that is if you have two airfields say 50miles apart, you could not put a dog leg in your flight plan to make it 100miles.
Julian.
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Originally Posted by powdermonkey
Keep it simple guys: depart home base, travel to B, STOP, have tea/refuel etc. Depart B, travel to C, STOP, more tea/food etc. Depart C and go back to original departure point. All in same day, cover 300nm +, must be done in the airspace you are training in ( ie, I cannot cross the Scottish FIR, must be done in Irish airspace only from what I have been told).
Simple..but long and boring.......bring another PPL with you?
Simple..but long and boring.......bring another PPL with you?
And my point? Well he first is to enjoy it and have a bit of an adventure. Also not sure that the flight has to be in one country/FIR to qualify (allthough this one was) - where is this stated?
As an aside the return flight was broken by a night stop in Naples due wx, so timing is important.
PF
Gizajob
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Powdermonkey - my qualifier was partly outside UK airspace - maybe the Irish have different rules? I don't see anything in LASORS that says you have to remain in your 'training' airspace.
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KISS (Keep It Simple)
It'd be a very great pity to miss out on getting your licence just because of a technicality over the x-country!
I'm with pilgrim flyer, here. Plan a flight that's a bit of an adventure, pick a really good wx day, take a companion to share the pleasure with, keep it simple, in excess of the requirement.
I did Denham-Bodmin-St. Just-Rowborough-Dunkeswell-Denham. Nearly 8 hours in a low-horse Rallye! Of course, at the time I didn't KNOW I was doing the qualifying, it was just a big day out as an early PPL trip.
OpenCirrus619,
Quite a challenge, doing Cumbernauld-Denham! Not the easiest place to find, straight off.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
I'm with pilgrim flyer, here. Plan a flight that's a bit of an adventure, pick a really good wx day, take a companion to share the pleasure with, keep it simple, in excess of the requirement.
I did Denham-Bodmin-St. Just-Rowborough-Dunkeswell-Denham. Nearly 8 hours in a low-horse Rallye! Of course, at the time I didn't KNOW I was doing the qualifying, it was just a big day out as an early PPL trip.
OpenCirrus619,
Quite a challenge, doing Cumbernauld-Denham! Not the easiest place to find, straight off.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
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Did mine last Summer, Blackbushe-Leicester-Connington (lunch)-Lydd- Blackbushe, 304nm exactly, 4.1 Hours airbourne! Connington - Lydd leg was challenging, routing directly beteen Stansted and Luton!