GerryFlyer

Hi Scroggs

OK - it isn't only Oxford that gets the big deals...

...but it is definately limited to Cabair, Oxford or Jerez.

But, then again, I guess the airlines cannot be expected to continuously interview candidates - so popping over to an integrated school and being offered a list of 'promising' pilots from tutors who have known the students for twelve months or so is probably the safest option.

What I'd like to know, is how an older student/graduate goes about getting a job. Even Oxford struggles to place an older low hours fATPL.

Any thoughts?

potkettleblack

If £60k is the maximum amount that you have available to spend then my advice is to check and double check your sums and make sure that you go through the price lists at OAT with a fine toothed comb. Check out their forums and get a feel for what it is costing other people who are already there. Also ask how many hours on average they are taking to get through to give you a rough estimate. Treat it just as you would when pricing up a CPL or IR at any other FTO. Add on extra training hours for both the CPL and IR to your budget to be on the safe side bearing in mind the feedback you get from current students. There are loads of threads here on pprune to check on what costs you are likely to be hit with and if they are included in the headline figures etc eg: landing fees, fuel surcharges, 170a fees, uniform charges, positioning costs for doing CAA tests etc. Don't forget accomodation and of course beer money as well!

Last thing you want is to get 90% of the way through the course and be worrying about being able to find the cash to finish.

ZH-127

Got a close friend and former flight training buddy currently doing his APP F.O at OAT. Hes on the modular waypoint training programme doing it long-distance.

He gets a lot of dispensation on his flying hours due to being B-Cat at a VGS.

By doing it longdistance and waypoint hes managing to keep his current full time job and thus ease the financial costs of doing it.

captwannabe

[quote]but it is definately limited to Cabair, Oxford or Jerez[quote]

It's definitely not limited to FTE, Cabair, or OAT. What about CTC? What about modular students? They too get hired by "big airlines". When airlines go to integrated schools, they still interview the students. There is no guarantee, wherever you train, that you will get an airline job. It costs a lot more than £60k to train at OAT. Food, accomodation, and beer money all add up.

Groundloop

Confused here. APP is the name of OAT's integrated course, Waypoint the modular course. So he cannot be doing the APP via Waypoint.

asuweb

It clearly states on the page that it is an FNPT sim.

Very true, APP Waypoint scheme doesn't exits!

Felix Saddler

Hi im considering doing a modular course with OAT but dont want to be sold by their brochure, I would like to hear from those who are presently there and are training modularly or have already been through it and can give me some structured info on it! What does the couse include? How much realistically is it? If there is anyone better and employment chances at the end?

Regards Felix.

chock2chock

FNPT/not FNPT trivia aside, The JOC that oxford offer is really just a cherry on the top of a well iced cake. The MCC is all you need full stop. I guess, to be better prepped for a sim assesment at an airline interview it may be a bonus, for alll you know, the sim assesment might not very well be in a 737! FTE's cheaper cource with accomodation icluded isalso another option, smaller class sizes nice weather etc. etc. Their JOC is at an extra cost and is done in a Buisness jet sim, the Hawker I believe...which is apparently programmed to handle like believe it or not.... like a 737!

If you are going integrated, don't do it to just 'put a check the box', yes you've done the course so you expect a job. Do it well. Like Kick ass and kiss some (maybe) get good grades, and as many 1st time passes you can get. Then those "orchestrated" job offers may just come your way, or at least, a letter of recommendation from the CFI.

Permafrost_ATPL

One thing I would warn people about is doing Modular at OAT if you're not prepared to work very hard to get the first time passes at everything. They DO put forward some modular students to airlines, but it's not many of them and they all have near perfect CVs (as opposed to APP with OK CVs).

You could think that at the end of the day, even if OAT don't put you forward to airlines, you still have the advantage of the OAT name on your CV. Not so. Many airlines, FlyBe being one I know for fact, will not consider OAT graduates who are not recommended by OAT. So for the same CV, as far as grades/passes are concerned, you are better off NOT having done your flying at OAT if you don't have a recommendation from them.

Some might think this is fair enough, i.e. why should an airline give you an interview if OAT don't recommend you (i.e. you must be crap). But unless, like I said above, you have the PERFECT CV and have a fairly brown nose, you just won't be recommended (as modular). This is something to seriously think about since it's going to cost you a lot more to do modular at OAT.

On a slightly different topic, I'd like to point out that when trying to calculate how much flight school and possibly a TR will cost you (if you get a job offer where you have to pay for the TR - please DO NOT pay for a TR unless there is a job at the end of it), you must think about how much it will cost you NOT to be flying jets for a few years. Add an instructor rating, earning very little for a year or two, earning not so much on a turbo-prop for another couple of years, etc. And compare to paying 20k for a rating and earning jet salary for all those years... Not so simple, huh?

I am NOT saying taking a job where you have to pay for a TR is the only way to go. Far from it. A great deal of fun and experience is to be gained from instructing, t-prop, etc. Probably makes you a better pilot. But if you're just looking at numbers, do the maths properly!

Cheers,

P

Permafrost_ATPL

Take a look at my recent reply to thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=234167

Can't fault the training, very good. But whether modular OAT will give you a much better chance to land an airline job... not so sure! On the other hand you are very unlikely to land a jet job straight out of school without a school like OAT or the other biggies.

So if you're happy (most people are!) starting on twin piston or t-prop, I'm not sure spending the extra cash on a modular OAT course is a good idea.

P

potkettleblack

I would be wary of the instructional route. There are fewer and fewer employers who value your skills at instructing someone to fly a c152. In days gone by there was a clear and defined career path to the RHS of a TP or if you were incredibly lucky a jet once you had 1000 hours or so of circuit bashing. Now its not necessarily the case. As always there will be exceptions to the rule.

I think the main benefit instructing can give you is potential contacts. But this of course would only be true of the FTO's that were based at "biggish" airfields and those which have relationships with airlines/operators. Unfortunately most FTO's do not and although the promises of loads of hours and getting to instruct on the trusty club twin lures many a wannabee to teach, it can be a graveyard of false hope. There are many cases of instructors getting paid feable amounts and a pitiful 300 hours pa under their belts whilst relocating at their own expense to some far corner of the country with its own micro weather system which invariably includes heavy rainfall. In these cases you would be no better off than a wannabee who continues working earning a crust and keeps the hours ticking over through joining a group/hiring from a club/trips to the US or a combination of all of these.

Permafrost_ATPL

Yes, good point, the old instructing route is not what it used to be from what one hears. It's a real shame.

Based on my own experience and friend's, you will need some good networking to get your first job if you choose to go the modular route (unless you manage to get through CTC Wings selection or similar, but age might be a problem). I recommend jobs in Dispatching, Ops, etc. They pay badly but you'll meet training captains, chief pilots, ops directors, etc. That's what counts.

P

Felix Saddler

Don't you need to get your FATPL before you can get work with any operator, jet or turbo prop? if not how?

Kind Regards,

Felix

Felix Saddler

I was wondering, how difficult is the skills assessment at OAT before you can move onto the integrated course?

balhambob

dunno I was wondering the same

I just did the assessment at CAbair - found it pretty easy & it only takes half a day

OAT is over 2 days so I imagine it must be more testing than Cabair - would be interested to hear from someone who has done both?

LeeH88

Haha, I was wondering exactly the same aswell. Booking mine sometime this week for a couple of weeks time. You say CabAir was easy? Im not sure how easy it is to get a Prof.Studies Loan @ CabAir, if at all possible.

c_jephcott

I managed to do both assessments before finally deciding on OAT. Obviously, the first thing to say is that both assessments do have demanding elements. However, I would believe that OAT is more challenging to get into.

For Cranfield - the assessment takes about half a day and consists of the following:

Maths paper - 90 minutes - 30 questions. (sounds easy, but believe me, you do end up using the full 90 minutes)

Physics paper - 90 minutes - 30 questions

Pilapt testing (another 90 minutes or so!)

And a debrief/interview. Although this was not thorough, it did go over your results objectively.

For OAT, the assessment is on a much larger scale and takes two days. It consists of the following:

Compass Aptitude testing (90 minutes or so!)

Simulator ride on a Seneca-type IR Sim (Probably about 25 minutes, but flies by)

Team Exercises (two situations where you have to demonstrate the ability to work in a team)

Group discussions (two themes or so - 1 aviation related, one current affairs)

Interview (about 45 minutes)

and then finally a debrief where the decision is made.


I would say that in terms of assessing you, the OAT method is much more thorough than Cabair, as they examine several more key aspects.

Out of my groups from the assessment, everyone got into Cabair, and only 50% got into OAT. The other 50% were invited back in 6 months time for reassessment (although I later learnt that one was not at the standard at all).

So that's about it.

Cheers,
CJ

n90bar

I've successfully completed the OAT assessment.

Aswell as the things previosuly mentioned you also have a maths test, physics test and a personality test. (whereby u answer 200 questions). I personally found the Compass tests (computer based ones) the hardest.
One piece of advice - answer honestly for the peronality test - what u think may be the correct answer isn't necessarily what the assessors are looking for!

captwannabe

How does FTE's assessment compare? How does the Compass Test work?

c_jephcott

I totally forgot about the personality test. Sorry about that one guys!!

200 questions, all of which are repetitive but just answer truthfully, as any slight deviations will be picked up on.