Pilot magazine and the OAT chap
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Article in one of the Pilot Mags
A couple of days ago I was reading an article in a pilot magazine which is following an oxford student through his ATPL exams. Just reading down the page and came across the quote which read something like" first time passes are needed as it could mean the difference between a right hand seat on a 737 or a job behind a shop counter" What a thing to say. I never passed my exams first time and I dont work behind a shop counter. I hope he does not think that someone working in a shop is lower than him. Typical 19year old. Just remember peeps how fortunate we are . I maybe completely wrong but it did annoy me.
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Yes, I think first-time passes would elevate you to the position of re-stocking the shelves, or perhaps sweeping the aisles, even third assistant to the duty manager!!
There hasn't been one application form I've filled in that has asked me my ATPL results. In fact, even my first time IR and CPL passes don't get a look-in anywhere either.
At OATS they might mean the difference between your name going forward to BA or not, but I thought the requirement was just an average of 85%.
For the rest of us, first time passes are good only for you: they give you confidence, boost your morale and generally indicate you are headed in the right direction. They also save considerable anguish and further expense.
There hasn't been one application form I've filled in that has asked me my ATPL results. In fact, even my first time IR and CPL passes don't get a look-in anywhere either.
At OATS they might mean the difference between your name going forward to BA or not, but I thought the requirement was just an average of 85%.
For the rest of us, first time passes are good only for you: they give you confidence, boost your morale and generally indicate you are headed in the right direction. They also save considerable anguish and further expense.
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It is because he has been sold the Oxford lie, and seemingly swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
I feel sorry for the little blighter.
Geez
P.S. The Oxford lie comes in many forms and can be found in many flying schools up and down the country. A way to identify the Oxford lie is to go to a school that doesn't need to put 'adverts' in pilot magazine and compare them to said school.
But who cares about experiencing real life, when you can be a FO in a jet in 12 months!
Chances are he'll get a job before he even finishes school. I really hope he does.
I feel sorry for the little blighter.
Geez
P.S. The Oxford lie comes in many forms and can be found in many flying schools up and down the country. A way to identify the Oxford lie is to go to a school that doesn't need to put 'adverts' in pilot magazine and compare them to said school.
But who cares about experiencing real life, when you can be a FO in a jet in 12 months!
Chances are he'll get a job before he even finishes school. I really hope he does.
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I'm sure his comment was made with the slightest hint of sarcasm! He is in a fortunate position to be at OAT and is obviously willing to pay the £60,000 to £70,000 to be there! If he does well, then yes, he will probably have an interview with BA in 15 months - I wish I could say that!
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I'm at OAT and I can tell you right now that everyone here does not buy into the 'oxford lie' as you all so nicely put it 
. We're here because its a good school with great instructors. Good results are NEVER a bad thing and you should aim to do as well as you can. That goes for anything in life, not just flying!!
. We're here because its a good school with great instructors. Good results are NEVER a bad thing and you should aim to do as well as you can. That goes for anything in life, not just flying!!
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Isn't the real point here, and the one Airpilot was originally making, that this wee tyke sees his future as being either in the RHS of some posh jet, or a fate worse than death, "behind a counter"? He will probably score 100% in everything (it isn't that hard) .. But he should still be forcefully ejected into the Real World for a statutory period of at least three years, or until puberty, before being allowed anywhere near anyone's RHS. Then he might realise how insulting (to those of us who are, or ever have been, "behind counters"), unrealistic and ungrateful his attitude is.
Oh, and I take it regional turboprops are just flying counters...?
Oh, and I take it regional turboprops are just flying counters...?
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Ahh, Bless him, he probably wanted to be a Pop Singer until 6 months ago, but never passed the 'X factor' auditions!!
Loads of people I know had the odd re-take to do, having missed a pass by a couple of percent on a bad day, and it has Never come back to bite them in the backside!! - Oh and they never ended up behind a counter either
!!
Having worked in a Pub once (behind a Bar
), and held down a decent office job )behind a Desk
), I eventually went on to Instruct and then to fly a regional Turbo Prop until fairly recently!! Gosh, how did I manage???
Well I rekon that the TP flying was about the most fun I will ever have in an aeroplane, lots of hand flying, visual approaches, weather avoidance, 2 take off and landings per day, 5 days per week!!
So the jets bring more money, and a bit more variety, but alot of the 'fun' factor is gone! It's great to climb the ladder, but even nicer if you can stop on the way up to take in the view!
Loads of people I know had the odd re-take to do, having missed a pass by a couple of percent on a bad day, and it has Never come back to bite them in the backside!! - Oh and they never ended up behind a counter either
!! Having worked in a Pub once (behind a Bar
), and held down a decent office job )behind a Desk ), I eventually went on to Instruct and then to fly a regional Turbo Prop until fairly recently!! Gosh, how did I manage??? Well I rekon that the TP flying was about the most fun I will ever have in an aeroplane, lots of hand flying, visual approaches, weather avoidance, 2 take off and landings per day, 5 days per week!!
So the jets bring more money, and a bit more variety, but alot of the 'fun' factor is gone! It's great to climb the ladder, but even nicer if you can stop on the way up to take in the view!
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To be honest, I read the article and I personally thought the way he was speaking was demeaning and had a lot of arrogence in it. To be fair, good luck to the kid, it takes lots of work and dedication anywhere you decide to train, but I feel a more "real world" series would be better, ie following a self improver through a course, as the OAT seems to be insert arrogant 19yr old and 70k one end,and in just over a year extract an even more arrogant "anyone whodidn't train at OAT is crap" 20 yr old with minimun time and limited "real world" experience.
just my 2 pennys worth, waiting for the flames now
just my 2 pennys worth, waiting for the flames now
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I tend to agree re the "real world' alternative, Kengineer. I would have been interested to read a first-hand tale of someone struggling to get through by fair means or foul, while funding the rest of life, a partner and spawn. (More so than yet another flight test on some obscure aircraft I wouldn't recognise if I fell over it, and will certainly never lay hands on) But what light , on ANY aspect, can an unself-funded 19-year-old shed anyway?
That isn't a rhetorical question. In all honesty, I knew the article would irritate me beyond belief, so I've only skim-read it. Please, someone do correct me if I've missed the point.
As a recovering journalist, I would love to know the editorial thinking behind this one.
That isn't a rhetorical question. In all honesty, I knew the article would irritate me beyond belief, so I've only skim-read it. Please, someone do correct me if I've missed the point.
As a recovering journalist, I would love to know the editorial thinking behind this one.
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Airist,
I am not sure if "Pilot Pete's" story was ever published within Pilot, but if you'd like to read a story like you describe then "Pilot Pete" posted his story to PPRUNE as a "taster" for the article he was going to send to Pilot.
A very worthwhile read.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=6911
I have also read the article by the 19-year old. I nearly gave up after nearly throwing up whilst reading the first few paragraphs in regards to looking at one's self in the mirror, talk about vane!
I do hope he wrote the article with his tongue firmly in cheek. He was right though when he wrote about feedback and pre-exam week! Plenty of coffee, etc etc... Oh dear I've got that coming up this coming week. Oh well.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
I am not sure if "Pilot Pete's" story was ever published within Pilot, but if you'd like to read a story like you describe then "Pilot Pete" posted his story to PPRUNE as a "taster" for the article he was going to send to Pilot.
A very worthwhile read.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=6911
I have also read the article by the 19-year old. I nearly gave up after nearly throwing up whilst reading the first few paragraphs in regards to looking at one's self in the mirror, talk about vane!
I do hope he wrote the article with his tongue firmly in cheek. He was right though when he wrote about feedback and pre-exam week! Plenty of coffee, etc etc... Oh dear I've got that coming up this coming week. Oh well.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
Last edited by Charlie Zulu; 26th Nov 2005 at 23:07.
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Okay Okay
Perhaps we are all being a little harsh on this young lad ?
I know his article made me cringe as I said before, but come on, how many of you wish that you were on his shoes when you were 19 Eh ?
What we see here is the person that many a 30 odd year fATPLer is in competition with..........like it or not.
His chances of landing a RHS position in the proverbial ' shiny jet ' in the not too far distant future are way and above that of a majority of others. but, hey, thats life !
J
Perhaps we are all being a little harsh on this young lad ?
I know his article made me cringe as I said before, but come on, how many of you wish that you were on his shoes when you were 19 Eh ?
What we see here is the person that many a 30 odd year fATPLer is in competition with..........like it or not.
His chances of landing a RHS position in the proverbial ' shiny jet ' in the not too far distant future are way and above that of a majority of others. but, hey, thats life !
J
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No it ain't Jepp
He has as much chance as the other 1000 low houred CPL's out there after OAT have lost interest in him.
He is young and all the rest which will work in his......
I actually think poor **** to be honest. Every man and his dog will think the pish that has been written is him......
I hope he got a huge bung for the article
MJ
He has as much chance as the other 1000 low houred CPL's out there after OAT have lost interest in him.
He is young and all the rest which will work in his......
I actually think poor **** to be honest. Every man and his dog will think the pish that has been written is him......
I hope he got a huge bung for the article
MJ
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I feel I must come to the defence of Will, I'm at OAT and know him quite well. He's a great guy, popular with his class and very switched on. He's just about to do his IR and in fact is about to go to BA for selection and interview so I think despite his youth and limited industry experience, is qualified enough to write an article only designed to give people a bit of an insight into training - yes it maybe just at OAT on an integrated course, but nonetheless...
I agree his comments along the shop counter lines are misinformed, everybody is allowed a failure at something, christ, you wouldn't be human if you hadn't and how would you ever learn anything - I think what he may have been trying to say is what the airlines don't want to see is a number of failures, I know someone who failed 4 subjects and re-sat two of them twice! That wouldn't go too much in your favour, but failing one by a few percent isn't ever going to dash your chances. If anything, it gives you material for the "give us a time when you failed something" questions at interview.
I agree with lots of Will's statements and not with some others. No one is going to agree with everything, not even if it had been written by a 35 year old with years of life experience. I don't think it was written as a definitive guide to ATPL training, just a light-hearted account of his experiences.
after all.........do you believe everything you read?!
I agree his comments along the shop counter lines are misinformed, everybody is allowed a failure at something, christ, you wouldn't be human if you hadn't and how would you ever learn anything - I think what he may have been trying to say is what the airlines don't want to see is a number of failures, I know someone who failed 4 subjects and re-sat two of them twice! That wouldn't go too much in your favour, but failing one by a few percent isn't ever going to dash your chances. If anything, it gives you material for the "give us a time when you failed something" questions at interview.
I agree with lots of Will's statements and not with some others. No one is going to agree with everything, not even if it had been written by a 35 year old with years of life experience. I don't think it was written as a definitive guide to ATPL training, just a light-hearted account of his experiences.
after all.........do you believe everything you read?!
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As someone who got first time passes in every flying test I've done, it is so immensely frustrating to read that someone who has yet to do their IR has an interview already lined up with BA. Unfortunately I was a modular student...who sat the same exams and tests as this chap, was examined to the same level, etc, etc.
If I ever needed reminding that this is an unfair world...
If I ever needed reminding that this is an unfair world...
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Don't be too hard on the lad; he is to a large extent regurgitating what he's been told and can't leaven that with his own experience. It's just a shame that Oxford (or at least one or some of its staff) feel the need to try and convince their students that this kind of crap is true.
It may well be that in OAT's own culture, and in any agreement made with the airlines it deals with, failures at ground exams are not tolerated. Of course, you would expect in that case that anyone who fails an exam is not allowed to continue to waste their money on the flying phases of the course. Perhaps someone from Oxford would care to comment on that...? However, in the wider field of real-world employment, it is accepted that people fail exams and retake them. It would be a very hard-nosed employer indeed who took a dim view of this.
Take the article with a pinch of salt. Those of you not OAT trained who have been successfully employed may like to write to the magazine concerned and set the record straight?
Scroggs
It may well be that in OAT's own culture, and in any agreement made with the airlines it deals with, failures at ground exams are not tolerated. Of course, you would expect in that case that anyone who fails an exam is not allowed to continue to waste their money on the flying phases of the course. Perhaps someone from Oxford would care to comment on that...? However, in the wider field of real-world employment, it is accepted that people fail exams and retake them. It would be a very hard-nosed employer indeed who took a dim view of this.
Take the article with a pinch of salt. Those of you not OAT trained who have been successfully employed may like to write to the magazine concerned and set the record straight?
Scroggs
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... No-one's been having a personal go at the lad. At least, I don't think so.
But he seems to forget that he is very privileged to be where he is. There are a lot of people out there who haven't had his luck and are indeed working behind counters, or wherever. Moo, if you know him, perhaps you could have a tactful word in his ear about that. And maybe having a little humility in the face of his absolute inexperience, of aviation AND The Real World. You could call it "CRM"...
But he seems to forget that he is very privileged to be where he is. There are a lot of people out there who haven't had his luck and are indeed working behind counters, or wherever. Moo, if you know him, perhaps you could have a tactful word in his ear about that. And maybe having a little humility in the face of his absolute inexperience, of aviation AND The Real World. You could call it "CRM"...
Last edited by Airist; 28th Nov 2005 at 10:55.