Pilot magazine and the OAT chap
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Let's not overlook the huge cost of training it seems we have been immersed in flight training so long that these prices seem normal. In fact I'd say we're somewhat immune to their shocking presence. If I were to tell members of the public about training for their dream job and then say it'd be a minimum of lets say £50k their eyes would no doubt open wide.
There are programmes on TV that report on the sad consequences of bad debt and the ruinous effect it has on personal and family life, in some cases suicide and or serious mental issues. Most of those reports are for people with a fairly good income and are still struggling, how can such a huge debt be taken on lightly? OAT claim their courses cost £XXX's which is on high end of the scale to start with then they end up paying even more towrads the end after the student has passed the point of no return. Of course OAT claims that they have safeguards in place protecting student expenditure if they seem weak or 'behind the curve' during the earlier stages of training. However what about those students that will utlimately pass but only after numerous attempts and racking up even more debt when they're not working anyway?
I am NOT trying to put OAT down, I am merely highlighting the frightening relationship between training, cost and consequently personal debt. It's not a game and like many who take out loans or other forms of borrowing the glossy adverts of a happy smiling couple holding a cheque for thier new car, sofa, kitchen, holiday disguises the more than equal dismay as every month the money gets deducted (effectively cutting your salary) reverting people to think that was X years ago and still the repayments..... hmmm ..... was that really worth it? Could it have been done in another way....? Aviation training is indeed a syllabus but it needs to go hand-in-hand with common sense.
There are programmes on TV that report on the sad consequences of bad debt and the ruinous effect it has on personal and family life, in some cases suicide and or serious mental issues. Most of those reports are for people with a fairly good income and are still struggling, how can such a huge debt be taken on lightly? OAT claim their courses cost £XXX's which is on high end of the scale to start with then they end up paying even more towrads the end after the student has passed the point of no return. Of course OAT claims that they have safeguards in place protecting student expenditure if they seem weak or 'behind the curve' during the earlier stages of training. However what about those students that will utlimately pass but only after numerous attempts and racking up even more debt when they're not working anyway?
I am NOT trying to put OAT down, I am merely highlighting the frightening relationship between training, cost and consequently personal debt. It's not a game and like many who take out loans or other forms of borrowing the glossy adverts of a happy smiling couple holding a cheque for thier new car, sofa, kitchen, holiday disguises the more than equal dismay as every month the money gets deducted (effectively cutting your salary) reverting people to think that was X years ago and still the repayments..... hmmm ..... was that really worth it? Could it have been done in another way....? Aviation training is indeed a syllabus but it needs to go hand-in-hand with common sense.
Last edited by boogie-nicey; 14th Jul 2006 at 09:09.
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boogie-nicey,
You have very valid points. If a modular student and an integrated student are hired straight after their training, the modular student will be in a much better position financially. Even if the modular student has to do some GA flying to get an airline gig, at least he/she would be paid to fly, and would probably have made some good contacts along the way.
It would be great if an airline set up a "sponsored/mentored" cadet scheme via a well-structured modular route. Ah well, one can dream...
You have very valid points. If a modular student and an integrated student are hired straight after their training, the modular student will be in a much better position financially. Even if the modular student has to do some GA flying to get an airline gig, at least he/she would be paid to fly, and would probably have made some good contacts along the way.
It would be great if an airline set up a "sponsored/mentored" cadet scheme via a well-structured modular route. Ah well, one can dream...
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Pilot Magazine August 2006
His article in this month's 'Pilot' does confirm he is now employed by the airline with the orange fin!
He also comments on how he was forced to turn down the 2nd Stage of selection for Thomsonfly due to their recruitment process 'being a bit slower than where he ended up!' All this despite the airline being willing to pay for half his rating if he were to be successful. However as the process didn't fit with the 5 month period where he had to start paying back the bank the 100K he invested in OAT, he took up the Easy/GECAT offer, borrowing another 20K for the Airbus TR!
All in all an enlightening (and interesting) insight to the integrated world, a world where extremely deep pockets are a pre-requisite! However his dream has now been realized, despite being placed knee deep in debt for the indefinite future! His parting words as the article ends read as follows...'as an afterthought, what do I think of integrated training? I paid for a product, and they delivered. They delivered the interview in only 2 months. I can't complain.'
Someday I think you just might mate!
He also comments on how he was forced to turn down the 2nd Stage of selection for Thomsonfly due to their recruitment process 'being a bit slower than where he ended up!' All this despite the airline being willing to pay for half his rating if he were to be successful. However as the process didn't fit with the 5 month period where he had to start paying back the bank the 100K he invested in OAT, he took up the Easy/GECAT offer, borrowing another 20K for the Airbus TR!
All in all an enlightening (and interesting) insight to the integrated world, a world where extremely deep pockets are a pre-requisite! However his dream has now been realized, despite being placed knee deep in debt for the indefinite future! His parting words as the article ends read as follows...'as an afterthought, what do I think of integrated training? I paid for a product, and they delivered. They delivered the interview in only 2 months. I can't complain.'
Someday I think you just might mate!
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With the publicity he gave OAT, he was guaranteed to get recommendations from them, and he also got a lot of self-publicity from the articles. I wonder if someone were to go down a well-structured modular route writing a similar series of articles, would they have any problem getting interviews/jobs?
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Seems like he had what the airlines are looking for though, in abundance. Some of us aren't so lucky, and although i believe in myself, i know i'll have to convince selection boards a lot more than people who come across as he seems to, from what i've read in this thread.
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If like me his loan from hsbc can be paid over 11 years,lose the £25k his dad lent him then he still has £100k to pay the bank...
At the profesional study loan rates thats knocking on the door of £1300-£1400 a month repayments for 11 years!
Im glad I'm taking the modular route
Not wanting to get in to the SSTR argument again,but since he paid for his type rating he(and everybody else) may as well go modular at £35-40k and buy a type(booooo!) ending up with £60k to pay back (thats less than the basic APP course),if you are daft enough to pay for a TR,then they don't care which training route you took.
At the profesional study loan rates thats knocking on the door of £1300-£1400 a month repayments for 11 years!
Im glad I'm taking the modular route
Not wanting to get in to the SSTR argument again,but since he paid for his type rating he(and everybody else) may as well go modular at £35-40k and buy a type(booooo!) ending up with £60k to pay back (thats less than the basic APP course),if you are daft enough to pay for a TR,then they don't care which training route you took.
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I wish they'd come and talk to someone like me who has really had to work their butt off! I kept down a full time, high pressure job, and did my training in my spare time with first time passes throughout (1.5 years start to finish). I put my job, house, and marriage on the line for all this and I've still got them all + and here's where it gets interesting, I have no debts!! I am not the brightest of individuals which proves anyone can really do this (only just finished)! If I now need to buy a type, I can
, and I even have some now left over for a yacht too!! (Sailing's much more fun!
)
, and I even have some now left over for a yacht too!! (Sailing's much more fun! )
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A miracle!
Sinbin, I'm not so sure this is the industry for you. 1.5 years? From what I have heard 1.5 years is just about enough to get from 0 time to full ATPL if you work absolutely solidly. High pressure job capable of funding training, a house, your wife and a spare bit of pocket cash for rich boy toys? Does the high pressure job involve...robbing banks?
If not what you have achieved is little short of a miracle and perhaps you should aim elswhere than flying. Perhaps run a jumbo on the weekends as a hobby. Concentrate your immense efforts on a skill that can improve the world we live in. It must be within your grasp?
What's my point here? If what you're saying isn't subject to the odd enhancement here or there you really should write a book and sell it. A lot of people would be interested and full time integrated schools would buy your silence as you'd be capable of single handidly bankrupting them all!
Tell us more...
If not what you have achieved is little short of a miracle and perhaps you should aim elswhere than flying. Perhaps run a jumbo on the weekends as a hobby. Concentrate your immense efforts on a skill that can improve the world we live in. It must be within your grasp?
What's my point here? If what you're saying isn't subject to the odd enhancement here or there you really should write a book and sell it. A lot of people would be interested and full time integrated schools would buy your silence as you'd be capable of single handidly bankrupting them all!
Tell us more...
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New FO
Where did you find that timescale? It is certainly possible to do the lot in a year working solidly. I was kind of relaxed about it because of the state of recruitment at the time and it took 15 months, despite 5 weeks off ill and a month working in the middle. I could have shortened various phases and I hit a bad patch of weather during my CPL.
I know others that completed in around a year on modular courses, if they were lucky with the weather.
Where did you find that timescale? It is certainly possible to do the lot in a year working solidly. I was kind of relaxed about it because of the state of recruitment at the time and it took 15 months, despite 5 weeks off ill and a month working in the middle. I could have shortened various phases and I hit a bad patch of weather during my CPL.
I know others that completed in around a year on modular courses, if they were lucky with the weather.
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Then I'm confuzed. Surely if this was the case, the integrated courses which take up the best part of a year and a half...could be shortened? Given that those guys not only need less hours to achieve the CPL but also work continually focussing purely on flying.
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I do think humility is the watch word here. With a little more life experience the lad might realise that there are a lot of good people doing necessary jobs which he feels would be a life worse than death. I know of a lot of pilots who have had to do all sorts of things to make ends meet from washing planes and sleeping on mattresses on hangar floors to build hours and follow their ambitions.
This lad is undoubtly lucky and has supportive parents for him to be there at 19 years old. Too bad they didn't make him do a typical gap year activity between school and the next phase of his life like work in a pub and then go traveling with a backpack on. Maybe that would have given him some grounding first, so to speak.
Muddy Boots
This lad is undoubtly lucky and has supportive parents for him to be there at 19 years old. Too bad they didn't make him do a typical gap year activity between school and the next phase of his life like work in a pub and then go traveling with a backpack on. Maybe that would have given him some grounding first, so to speak.
Muddy Boots
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Let's not turn this into the modular/integrated argument! Both training methods are obviously very valid. However, is it really possible to get through the modular route, along side paying as you go, in such a short time? If so, whoever knows how to do this...please share the info!
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I've just read the August article.
"...they help you land a job. In essence, that's what you pay for. To go through a process that puts you in a position in which you can land a job on a big shiny airliner."
Paying £80k for training and £20k for a TR is just not worth it. He said he spent £100k in total which is approx. €150k. I know a few people who spent €55k on training and €30k on a TR (usually for FR) which amounts to €85k. They are working for an airline for around the basic course price of OAT. Are they in the same position as the OAT chap? No, they are better off.
Congrats to him on landing his first job, because that's a difficult task no matter where/how you train.
"...they help you land a job. In essence, that's what you pay for. To go through a process that puts you in a position in which you can land a job on a big shiny airliner."
Paying £80k for training and £20k for a TR is just not worth it. He said he spent £100k in total which is approx. €150k. I know a few people who spent €55k on training and €30k on a TR (usually for FR) which amounts to €85k. They are working for an airline for around the basic course price of OAT. Are they in the same position as the OAT chap? No, they are better off.
Congrats to him on landing his first job, because that's a difficult task no matter where/how you train.
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I forgot to add that some people will get the wrong idea from reading these articles, and will think that going to OAT and spending £100k is the only way to go about pilot training, and because he got his first job in a "big shiny airliner" will expect the same.
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Originally Posted by New FO
Let's not turn this into the modular/integrated argument! Both training methods are obviously very valid. However, is it really possible to get through the modular route, along side paying as you go, in such a short time? If so, whoever knows how to do this...please share the info!
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I think one thing that is in the favour people who do modular courses is that alot of people these days have one day off a week. Sure there are still alot of 5 days a week office jobs etc but alot of people have days off during the week. I am lucky I have a job as an engineer in the printing industry. I work a continental shift pattern which means I only work 12 a month. The money I earn is good. This allows me to devote at least 10 days a month to ATPL study and my dream job. I think the OAT chap is lucky to have parents to lend him £25k and I would s**t myself if I had a £100k debt to pay to a bank. I do know that Integrated is better for some people so what I would say is that if you want to get a FATPL i think a good idea would be to get a job on shift work and pay for at least some of the training that way, Even fork lift drivers where I work who do the same shift pattern take home £1600 a month,just think that could go towards training and keep you out of as much debt!
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New FO
I can see your points of confusion - you are assuming all modular students do something other than the course at the same time, and also have the wrong timescale for the integrated course. Apart from a break waiting for a place on the next module I did my course full-time, as did many others I know, some of them timed things better with course dates and weather, were not ill and were working hard to get on the job market quickly. Then it can be done in a year. Also I knew at least one who did the distance learning quicker than the full-time course I did.
In the UK at least the integrated course quotes I saw when deciding were around one year. I don't know where your timescale of a year and a half comes from. I saw quotes from Spanish schools for 2-year courses, but they seem to do a very long groundschool.
Nevertheless Mcgoo sounds to be doing uncommonly well, and must be working damned hard to get taht schedule while working. Well done mate!
I can see your points of confusion - you are assuming all modular students do something other than the course at the same time, and also have the wrong timescale for the integrated course. Apart from a break waiting for a place on the next module I did my course full-time, as did many others I know, some of them timed things better with course dates and weather, were not ill and were working hard to get on the job market quickly. Then it can be done in a year. Also I knew at least one who did the distance learning quicker than the full-time course I did.
In the UK at least the integrated course quotes I saw when deciding were around one year. I don't know where your timescale of a year and a half comes from. I saw quotes from Spanish schools for 2-year courses, but they seem to do a very long groundschool.
Nevertheless Mcgoo sounds to be doing uncommonly well, and must be working damned hard to get taht schedule while working. Well done mate!
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Sin Bin: Well done, you got it done, no debt (I'm proud) and held down the fundamentals of a family life. I don't know what New FO problem is questioning what you've done and in what timescale, there's no need for that kind of comment.
Well done, why is it necessary to get into debt for training? The optimum should be a debt free situation. Many seem to think we all have to be in the same boat, well that's just not the case. There was no need to post such sarcastic notes about SinBin.
Well done, why is it necessary to get into debt for training? The optimum should be a debt free situation. Many seem to think we all have to be in the same boat, well that's just not the case. There was no need to post such sarcastic notes about SinBin.
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In fact I get quite annoyed (not too much, just a little bit 
) when people seem to think that we all need to take a certain amount of time to complete a course (usually more than the integrated brigade). People who work full-time can complete it just as fast, why because they are prepared to deny themselves all manner of everyday respites, luxuries, etc after a hard day's work and hit the books they moment they get home.
The time taken is down to how hard the student wishes to work ... not necessarily. Actually it's how much they wish to give up. Many f/t integrated students and graduates need to realise that their's isn't the only way to skin a cat and the guys in parallel (mods) are sometimes even more motivated (they have to be in order to compensate the disadvatnage of the modular label).
The guy starting the race at the back of the grid is like a bat out of hell simply because they want to get to the front ASAP. That's somewhat similiar to the modular student who knows full well that their path is prejudiced against and they accordingly pull out all the stops in order to get it done, no matter what.
) when people seem to think that we all need to take a certain amount of time to complete a course (usually more than the integrated brigade). People who work full-time can complete it just as fast, why because they are prepared to deny themselves all manner of everyday respites, luxuries, etc after a hard day's work and hit the books they moment they get home. The time taken is down to how hard the student wishes to work ... not necessarily. Actually it's how much they wish to give up. Many f/t integrated students and graduates need to realise that their's isn't the only way to skin a cat and the guys in parallel (mods) are sometimes even more motivated (they have to be in order to compensate the disadvatnage of the modular label).
The guy starting the race at the back of the grid is like a bat out of hell simply because they want to get to the front ASAP. That's somewhat similiar to the modular student who knows full well that their path is prejudiced against and they accordingly pull out all the stops in order to get it done, no matter what.