Pilot magazine and the OAT chap
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Twit-Twoo !!
I've been reading this thread and also the mentioned article.
It's a shame that OAT/Pilot magazine have exploited the young chap.
This article should be taken as what it is....
A marketing exercise.
They (OAT) are now competing against Universities in selling a career/course. There's now no free Uni and so if you have to pay why not just go and do the ATPL straight away. Rather than like the past, Uni and then ATPL. OAT are fully aware of this.
So are now lowering the demography ie. 18-20 year olds. Look at their adverts, all fresh faced and under 22!
Pilot magazine is just an extention of the OAT marketing department. Every other month there's some article about OAT. Pilot magazine has lots of OAT adverts (inc CSE) so are probably their largest income. Trust me -count the adverts !!
They've tried to balance this (May or June) issue with other schools/flying abroad etc.. I think each school got a paragraph!
OAT on the other hand - get a full page spread and a journalist saying that if you want to do it the best way - go to OAT.
If I was a FTO, I'd pull the adverts in Pilot. Why subsidise OAT marketing department? Haven't seen Jerez for a while ??
I work in the industry as such and come across these so called OAT graduates. I would like to point out these basic facts:
1 You are at OAT NOT Oxford University. You only need 5 GCSE's not 6 A* a- levels.
2 You are not a graduate! It takes at least 3/4 years to get a BA/Bsc/LLB etc.
3 Degrees aren't multiple choice and there's no question bank with tutors gentally pointing you in the right direction for the thickies.
4 I was brought upto respect other peoples ways of achieving their goals - there is never EVER just one way to do things.
5 Don't believe a word of anything from people selling anything inc flight training!
6 Why do OAT students always say OAT have the best FI's ? Have you been any where else to compare this? They have the experience I here you say.. The experience has long gone.
Finally, I hope the young chap does achieve his goal and so does everybody else (whatever the path).
I will not be buying Pilot magazine again and neither should you until the editorial gets less bias.
An independent Twit-Twoo (not from OAT)!!!
Sorry it was a rant. The article got me in a flap - pun intended!!
I've been reading this thread and also the mentioned article.
It's a shame that OAT/Pilot magazine have exploited the young chap.
This article should be taken as what it is....
A marketing exercise.
They (OAT) are now competing against Universities in selling a career/course. There's now no free Uni and so if you have to pay why not just go and do the ATPL straight away. Rather than like the past, Uni and then ATPL. OAT are fully aware of this.
So are now lowering the demography ie. 18-20 year olds. Look at their adverts, all fresh faced and under 22!
Pilot magazine is just an extention of the OAT marketing department. Every other month there's some article about OAT. Pilot magazine has lots of OAT adverts (inc CSE) so are probably their largest income. Trust me -count the adverts !!
They've tried to balance this (May or June) issue with other schools/flying abroad etc.. I think each school got a paragraph!
OAT on the other hand - get a full page spread and a journalist saying that if you want to do it the best way - go to OAT.
If I was a FTO, I'd pull the adverts in Pilot. Why subsidise OAT marketing department? Haven't seen Jerez for a while ??
I work in the industry as such and come across these so called OAT graduates. I would like to point out these basic facts:
1 You are at OAT NOT Oxford University. You only need 5 GCSE's not 6 A* a- levels.
2 You are not a graduate! It takes at least 3/4 years to get a BA/Bsc/LLB etc.
3 Degrees aren't multiple choice and there's no question bank with tutors gentally pointing you in the right direction for the thickies.
4 I was brought upto respect other peoples ways of achieving their goals - there is never EVER just one way to do things.
5 Don't believe a word of anything from people selling anything inc flight training!
6 Why do OAT students always say OAT have the best FI's ? Have you been any where else to compare this? They have the experience I here you say.. The experience has long gone.
Finally, I hope the young chap does achieve his goal and so does everybody else (whatever the path).
I will not be buying Pilot magazine again and neither should you until the editorial gets less bias.
An independent Twit-Twoo (not from OAT)!!!
Sorry it was a rant. The article got me in a flap - pun intended!!
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They (OAT) are now competing against Universities in selling a career/course. There's now no free Uni and so if you have to pay why not just go and do the ATPL straight away
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The article pissed me off - it's misleading for people looking to enter flying training and is horribly pro Oxford, in particular the bit in the first article where the author seemed to suggest that the ONLY way to survive the ATPLs is to do a full time residential course! How many people starting out will have been taken in by that piece of mis-information?
I don't blame the chap who wrote it, as has been mentioned he's in-experienced and has just repeated what he was told by the Oxford marketing machine in relation to groundschool. He's obviously doing well with his course and no one should begrudge him a shot at BA selection - good luck to him.
The real issue is with Pilot mag. The idea behind the articles is surely to provide a generic insight into commercial training and what it is like actually going through it. Being a GA publication I don't know how much commercial training/flying experience the editorial team have, but the only group who are really benefitting from the series of articles - up to this point anyway - are Oxford themselves.
I don't blame the chap who wrote it, as has been mentioned he's in-experienced and has just repeated what he was told by the Oxford marketing machine in relation to groundschool. He's obviously doing well with his course and no one should begrudge him a shot at BA selection - good luck to him.
The real issue is with Pilot mag. The idea behind the articles is surely to provide a generic insight into commercial training and what it is like actually going through it. Being a GA publication I don't know how much commercial training/flying experience the editorial team have, but the only group who are really benefitting from the series of articles - up to this point anyway - are Oxford themselves.
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Oxford's course is good for one thing, and that is getting into BA, they pay 10% more than other airlines, as quoted by a senior first officer friend of mine, fine if you want to pay through the nose for a course. However why all the ambition to go to an airline where time to command is going to be 17 years for even the airbus fleet when they extend retirement age. If you ask me, go for one of the holiday charter firms where time to command is significantly less, how many airlines even look or even ask for ATPL results, I can think of one.....BA!
Says it all well done Oxford!!
Says it all well done Oxford!!
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....getting into BA, they pay 10% more than other airlines, as quoted by a senior first officer friend of mine...
Scroggs
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TWIT-TWOO!!
Uni was more or less free ie. No Uni fees and a subsistance grant!
I graduated from a Oxbridge Uni and my total debt was 1500 quid after 3 years. So yes, Uni WAS free!!
My point was that OAT realise this and are targeting the younger folk ( hence the age of the chap inthe article) . Average debt from Uni is now estimated to be 25,000 quid So if you go to OAT :
Uni degree 25,000 + 65,000 OAT + 20,000 TR = 110,000 !!!!
My numbers are 10, 17 , 23, 34, 42 and 44 .
Why does 44 always come up ?
So folks Uni is not free neither is a career in aviation.
OAT good for BA ? That's at the moment and all because of the ex- OAT "graduate" in charge of recruitment. When the baby boomers keel over (next year) that may change when more flights are being cancelled due to lack of aircrew (FD + CC).
I do wish they get rid of him he's so OAT it's embarrasing for the rest of us. He's not even a "real" graduate but prances about like a double first from Oxon!!
TWIT-TWOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.s See my new thread " Don't buy Pilot/ OAT advertisement pamphlet"
Uni was more or less free ie. No Uni fees and a subsistance grant!
I graduated from a Oxbridge Uni and my total debt was 1500 quid after 3 years. So yes, Uni WAS free!!
My point was that OAT realise this and are targeting the younger folk ( hence the age of the chap inthe article) . Average debt from Uni is now estimated to be 25,000 quid So if you go to OAT :
Uni degree 25,000 + 65,000 OAT + 20,000 TR = 110,000 !!!!
My numbers are 10, 17 , 23, 34, 42 and 44 .
Why does 44 always come up ?
So folks Uni is not free neither is a career in aviation.
OAT good for BA ? That's at the moment and all because of the ex- OAT "graduate" in charge of recruitment. When the baby boomers keel over (next year) that may change when more flights are being cancelled due to lack of aircrew (FD + CC).
I do wish they get rid of him he's so OAT it's embarrasing for the rest of us. He's not even a "real" graduate but prances about like a double first from Oxon!!
TWIT-TWOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.s See my new thread " Don't buy Pilot/ OAT advertisement pamphlet"
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BA paying more than other airlines? A good bit of misinformation that one! Schools with a BA contract will be be making a loss. BA use their size (large fish in small pond) and national flag carrier as bait for the schools.
"You want our contract? We will pay this amount." The school will bleed with every BA student. But they all want to be able to say, "We train BA students." If you are not a BA student you are paying a higher price. Schools have to make up their losses somehow.
I have a dream that one day all the schools will get together and work out a price for BA that is just. A dream I know, the schools will say yes and then do a private deal.
"You want our contract? We will pay this amount." The school will bleed with every BA student. But they all want to be able to say, "We train BA students." If you are not a BA student you are paying a higher price. Schools have to make up their losses somehow.
I have a dream that one day all the schools will get together and work out a price for BA that is just. A dream I know, the schools will say yes and then do a private deal.
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I wouldn't blame the man himself but there are some rather unfortunate comments in both articles so far. Given the cost of his course, getting paid to write about it is a very enterprising thing to do!
What is more worrying is the spread of this elitist "only a big BA jet will do" attitude. Many of us will have failed something and now feel that it made us a better pilot, not a worse one. And in such a diverse industry with so many companies doing different things, why is everyone obsessed with getting into one company??
What is more worrying is the spread of this elitist "only a big BA jet will do" attitude. Many of us will have failed something and now feel that it made us a better pilot, not a worse one. And in such a diverse industry with so many companies doing different things, why is everyone obsessed with getting into one company??
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I have been looking around for a flight training school for some time now, have visited most of them and one thing seems to be common through out all the schools that offer the intergrated course.. It's like being in a cult!!
Now I know everyone can make up there own mind, and there are plenty of success stories from these schools but being sold a dream in the way that they do, is to me quite worrying! I appreciate many people have £80k+ and are able to afford these courses, but to have to borrow £50k from a bank to pay for the training, that doesn't even cover the full cost of the training is way beyond belief! I understand it's going to be used for your future and it's an investment, but I worries me that someone aged 19/20 is allowed to borrow that kind of money, with out the real realisation of what happens it all goes wrong expalined to them! It's just all too easy.
I have read the article, and reading through it think that this guy has just been brain washed and nothing else in the real world actually matters.. Its the schools way, and that's all that matters.. Why should he worry about what he's writting?! What he's been taught is the only way it should be done.. According to the school....this is what he believes so why should he doubt it!
At the end of the day, we can all make our own decisions about life. What and who we want to believe but personally I would never go to one of these schools even if they could guarentee a job at the end.. Which they can't...
If you want to know I wouldn't .. It's very simple.. zero-fatpl will cost you if you go modular Min £38k .... the same at an intergrated school will cost you £65K+... Anyone that wants to charge you £28k extra for the same course DOES NOT HAVE YOUR INTERESTS as a priority.. How can they! But you have a choice, you make it and you stick by it.. Same as anything in life..
I have no doubt that one day I will be working with someone that has been to one of these schools, and I will have utter respect for them regardless.. I am at the end of the day not in a postion to critise others for the choices they make....I just hope they know what they are doing and are not being blinkered by all the hype and marketing that is offered to them for the extra £28k they pay!
Now I know everyone can make up there own mind, and there are plenty of success stories from these schools but being sold a dream in the way that they do, is to me quite worrying! I appreciate many people have £80k+ and are able to afford these courses, but to have to borrow £50k from a bank to pay for the training, that doesn't even cover the full cost of the training is way beyond belief! I understand it's going to be used for your future and it's an investment, but I worries me that someone aged 19/20 is allowed to borrow that kind of money, with out the real realisation of what happens it all goes wrong expalined to them! It's just all too easy.
I have read the article, and reading through it think that this guy has just been brain washed and nothing else in the real world actually matters.. Its the schools way, and that's all that matters.. Why should he worry about what he's writting?! What he's been taught is the only way it should be done.. According to the school....this is what he believes so why should he doubt it!
At the end of the day, we can all make our own decisions about life. What and who we want to believe but personally I would never go to one of these schools even if they could guarentee a job at the end.. Which they can't...
If you want to know I wouldn't .. It's very simple.. zero-fatpl will cost you if you go modular Min £38k .... the same at an intergrated school will cost you £65K+... Anyone that wants to charge you £28k extra for the same course DOES NOT HAVE YOUR INTERESTS as a priority.. How can they! But you have a choice, you make it and you stick by it.. Same as anything in life..
I have no doubt that one day I will be working with someone that has been to one of these schools, and I will have utter respect for them regardless.. I am at the end of the day not in a postion to critise others for the choices they make....I just hope they know what they are doing and are not being blinkered by all the hype and marketing that is offered to them for the extra £28k they pay!
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Pilot OAT series
Have to agree with Bitmorerightrudder on this one. Learning to fly either as a hobby or as a career as we all know is hugely expensive and something you would hope is looked into by everyone that embarks on it in great depth. In my case I spent many years reading Pilot, Flyer and Flight International etc on a weekly/monthly basis as I am sure most of us did. Therefore, this article will be being read by 10's if not 100's of inexperienced guys and girls that are wanting to embark on pilot training and it is painting a distorted picture in my view. It is a huge decission to make and these people need the best, most balanced and appropriate advice.....
The article in my view is hugely biased towards OAT and intergrated course providers for that matter and is being written by an author who, no disrespect to him at all, has no experience in the industry, specifically flight crew training or recruitment.
How many editions is this series to run for? Would Pilot have not been better featuring for example an intergrated OAT/Cabair/FTE student in month 1, a modular student (perhaps a guy or girl making a career change later in life for example, with family, mortgage considerations etc) with say Stapleford/Bristol Flying School/Aero's on week 2, a fATPL holder job hunting in week 3 (Advise on CV Writting, SIM Assessments, Interviews etc) and a newly qualified FO in week 4 (What the job is actually like!!). Not only a far less biased series , but far more imformative getting several different views and from people at various stages in the process?
Only my opinion for what it is worth.....
The article in my view is hugely biased towards OAT and intergrated course providers for that matter and is being written by an author who, no disrespect to him at all, has no experience in the industry, specifically flight crew training or recruitment.
How many editions is this series to run for? Would Pilot have not been better featuring for example an intergrated OAT/Cabair/FTE student in month 1, a modular student (perhaps a guy or girl making a career change later in life for example, with family, mortgage considerations etc) with say Stapleford/Bristol Flying School/Aero's on week 2, a fATPL holder job hunting in week 3 (Advise on CV Writting, SIM Assessments, Interviews etc) and a newly qualified FO in week 4 (What the job is actually like!!). Not only a far less biased series , but far more imformative getting several different views and from people at various stages in the process?
Only my opinion for what it is worth.....
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Pilot magazine and the OAT chap
JUst caught a quick glimpse of this month's Pilot magazine with another article in it of some chap who was either heading towards or just completed training at OAT. Like I said it was brief glance as I was pushed for time but I note from the last paragraph that he claimed to have spent "100k" and declared it as an investment.
Investments are not impune from some forward planning and this kind of figure is very high especially for someone of such a young age (something unethical about that... not sure). Anyway the fATPL is the investment not the price tag, because in gaining the fATPL he could have done so for half of that price quite easily. Clearly if it's not on the syllabus then these young guys have no idea about it. This clearly demonstrates their lack of general knowledge and awareness of anything outside of aviation or should I say anything not OAT approved (whatever that means).
Doesn't make me feel too well....
Investments are not impune from some forward planning and this kind of figure is very high especially for someone of such a young age (something unethical about that... not sure). Anyway the fATPL is the investment not the price tag, because in gaining the fATPL he could have done so for half of that price quite easily. Clearly if it's not on the syllabus then these young guys have no idea about it. This clearly demonstrates their lack of general knowledge and awareness of anything outside of aviation or should I say anything not OAT approved (whatever that means).
Doesn't make me feel too well....
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I understand I didn't want an Int. Vs Mod. debate neither just thought I'd mention it because I only caught a quick glance at the article.
But hey well done to him ..... looks like a goofey though
But hey well done to him ..... looks like a goofey though
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I should add though, I agree with you in that £100k does seem excessive. I know the figure quoted included all expenditure, including IR re-test (partial pass). Perhaps he had a lavish lifestyle. I'm certainly not expecting to spend quite that much.