The never-ending 'Modular vs. Integrated' debate - merged ad nauseam
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
From: uk
Professional Training: Don't do it !!!
Hello everybody,
I know everybody is going to say that this is a moan, that I am a fann., that I should get a grip, etc..., but there we go....
To people out there considering going down the road of professional Pilot Training,
DON'T DO IT !
Why? It a catch 22 situation !
DON'T DO IT !
Do not do it if:
- You have to borrow a lot of money to pay for your training. If you are rich or mummy and daddy are willing to pay for it, then you are OK.
- You go down the modular route.
CPL/IR/MCC will lead you to nothing.... 250ish hours are worth nothing!
Then you are going to say, "What about doing a FI Rating to get a bit more experience?" To that I will reply " Where do you find the money to pay for the rating, when you are already in debt (£25k at least), and then, how do you pay all the debt back and live decently when you earn peanuts as an instructor?
"What about getting a Type Rating?" You must be kidding, I hope....
"What about doing aerial photo, parachuting, etc.....?" Is this really a job, or more of a part time/weekend activity? There does not seem to be a lot of these going on anyway....
"Why do you want to go to airlines? What about biz aviation/charter?" Once again, 98% of biz aviation companies recruit guys with thousands of hours, so with your fresh fATPL, you're out of the question.
- You do not have good contacts: your dad or your uncle is the chief pilot at xxxx, or your best pal ever is a captain at xxxx. Sending out CV's is a waste of time, it is not what you know, but who you know, regardless of your ability as a pilot.
Fortunately, I have another job which keeps me going. If I had chosen to give up everything to become a pilot, I would be living under a bridge now.
Yes, I know, nobody owes me a job, yeah I know that, but I do not see the point in training so many people when obviously there aren't enough jobs for everybody. On top of that, contrary to loads of other jobs, there is no way you can get experience after you qualify, and live on a decent pay.
Don't tell me I don't want it hard enough, I do more than anybody, and I will always do and keep trying to see an end to the tunnel. However, I am not ready to sacrifice everything I've got for the promise of a job which remains as much a chimera as ever. Not worth it! You can't live on dreams, you have to remain realistic, and the reality is that you have no guarantees.
Dream on....
Regards
I know everybody is going to say that this is a moan, that I am a fann., that I should get a grip, etc..., but there we go....
To people out there considering going down the road of professional Pilot Training,
DON'T DO IT !
Why? It a catch 22 situation !
DON'T DO IT !
Do not do it if:
- You have to borrow a lot of money to pay for your training. If you are rich or mummy and daddy are willing to pay for it, then you are OK.
- You go down the modular route.
CPL/IR/MCC will lead you to nothing.... 250ish hours are worth nothing!
Then you are going to say, "What about doing a FI Rating to get a bit more experience?" To that I will reply " Where do you find the money to pay for the rating, when you are already in debt (£25k at least), and then, how do you pay all the debt back and live decently when you earn peanuts as an instructor?
"What about getting a Type Rating?" You must be kidding, I hope....
"What about doing aerial photo, parachuting, etc.....?" Is this really a job, or more of a part time/weekend activity? There does not seem to be a lot of these going on anyway....
"Why do you want to go to airlines? What about biz aviation/charter?" Once again, 98% of biz aviation companies recruit guys with thousands of hours, so with your fresh fATPL, you're out of the question.
- You do not have good contacts: your dad or your uncle is the chief pilot at xxxx, or your best pal ever is a captain at xxxx. Sending out CV's is a waste of time, it is not what you know, but who you know, regardless of your ability as a pilot.
Fortunately, I have another job which keeps me going. If I had chosen to give up everything to become a pilot, I would be living under a bridge now.
Yes, I know, nobody owes me a job, yeah I know that, but I do not see the point in training so many people when obviously there aren't enough jobs for everybody. On top of that, contrary to loads of other jobs, there is no way you can get experience after you qualify, and live on a decent pay.
Don't tell me I don't want it hard enough, I do more than anybody, and I will always do and keep trying to see an end to the tunnel. However, I am not ready to sacrifice everything I've got for the promise of a job which remains as much a chimera as ever. Not worth it! You can't live on dreams, you have to remain realistic, and the reality is that you have no guarantees.
Dream on....
Regards
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: London, England
Conventional Integrated vs Other options (NOT modular!)
I am luckly enough to now be in a position to enrole myself on an integrated Ab to ATPL course.
I have been looking at the usual suspects, Cabair, OAT, FTE and have passed several selection tests. I am 29 and am leaving a good job that pays well to follow a dream.
What i want to know is this...
Would I be better off in the short term to:
a. Do a conventional integrated ATPL course, pass it with the highest grades I can and pray there is a job for me at the end of it?
or
b. Do a cheaper ATPL course such as the one at Egnatia Aviation then come back to the UK to do an MCC and Type Rating course and pray there is a job of me at the end of it?
Can anyone who has any experience with pilot recruitment give me their opinion on which path will give me the best chance of a sucessful career please though everyone elses opinions are welcome too!
Thanks for any help people are willing to offer!
I have been looking at the usual suspects, Cabair, OAT, FTE and have passed several selection tests. I am 29 and am leaving a good job that pays well to follow a dream.
What i want to know is this...
Would I be better off in the short term to:
a. Do a conventional integrated ATPL course, pass it with the highest grades I can and pray there is a job for me at the end of it?
or
b. Do a cheaper ATPL course such as the one at Egnatia Aviation then come back to the UK to do an MCC and Type Rating course and pray there is a job of me at the end of it?
Can anyone who has any experience with pilot recruitment give me their opinion on which path will give me the best chance of a sucessful career please though everyone elses opinions are welcome too!
Thanks for any help people are willing to offer!
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 374
Likes: 0
From: AMS
Hello,
Am just a normal pilot, but have been with several companies, none of which would have been interested without the appropriate rating. None ever looked if I passed well or not in flight school.
You are at an age where companies usually expext hours.
You may not get the first job in the UK, but abroad, where nobody is interested in OAT, etc. However, if you have a rating, say A320 or B737, you are more usuable. Many people buy hours on type nowadays, they are cheaper than on a Cessna and certainly more valuable. (Possible in many companies all over the world, including the UK.)
On the other hand, you may get into a sponsoring programme or get a company to give you a contract before you do the rating, however, make sure that you include a possible rating in your financial calculation.
Some people, time permitting get a FAA rating, buy 500 hours, no MCC needed and a 4 hour coversion (to JAA) is still cheaper than a simple rating in the UK. (Frouned upon this site, but those people have jobs if not complete idiots.)
Getting a job is to equal parts skills/knowledge, luck, knowing the right people, hours/rating and luck.
my pennies worth. cheers, IP
Am just a normal pilot, but have been with several companies, none of which would have been interested without the appropriate rating. None ever looked if I passed well or not in flight school.
You are at an age where companies usually expext hours.
You may not get the first job in the UK, but abroad, where nobody is interested in OAT, etc. However, if you have a rating, say A320 or B737, you are more usuable. Many people buy hours on type nowadays, they are cheaper than on a Cessna and certainly more valuable. (Possible in many companies all over the world, including the UK.)
On the other hand, you may get into a sponsoring programme or get a company to give you a contract before you do the rating, however, make sure that you include a possible rating in your financial calculation.
Some people, time permitting get a FAA rating, buy 500 hours, no MCC needed and a 4 hour coversion (to JAA) is still cheaper than a simple rating in the UK. (Frouned upon this site, but those people have jobs if not complete idiots.)
Getting a job is to equal parts skills/knowledge, luck, knowing the right people, hours/rating and luck.
my pennies worth. cheers, IP
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,929
Likes: 6
From: Suffolk UK
Integrated versus others, but not modular? I don't understand your terminology. There are two ways of obtaining an ATPL under JARs - integrated or modular courses. If you wish to compare UK integrated schools with other JAA integrated schools then say so. However, there aren't many outside UK that aren't associated with a national airline, and some will require you to do your learning in their national language.
Another consideration is that many UK airlines (including mine) insist on a UK-issued JAA ATPL. This is, at least in part, due to the ease with which licences and experience can be forged or fraudulently obtained in some countries. It's not difficult or expensive to convert, but it may introduce complications into your planning.
Scroggs
Another consideration is that many UK airlines (including mine) insist on a UK-issued JAA ATPL. This is, at least in part, due to the ease with which licences and experience can be forged or fraudulently obtained in some countries. It's not difficult or expensive to convert, but it may introduce complications into your planning.
Scroggs
Super-Friendly Aviator
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
From: Reigate, UK
It can't hurt to try for one of the (very few and far between) quasi-sponsorship schemes out there. OAT, Cabair and FTE all have schemes like this - not sure of deadlines etc. but their websites will have details. CTC Wings is another option.
I've been lucky enough to gain a place on one starting at OAT next month and, although not a sponsorship in the traditional sense of the word, every little helps. It certainly gives you slightly more peace of mind as regards employment prospects...though nothing's guaranteed! One thing to worry less about though.
Best of luck,
V1R
I've been lucky enough to gain a place on one starting at OAT next month and, although not a sponsorship in the traditional sense of the word, every little helps. It certainly gives you slightly more peace of mind as regards employment prospects...though nothing's guaranteed! One thing to worry less about though.
Best of luck,
V1R
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: London, England
JAA UK intergrated or Overseas JAA Intergrated + Type Rating
Opinions please ladies and gents...
For the same cost, circa £65k it is possible to either:
a. Complete a JAA Ab to ATPL Course at a UK FTO like OAT or Cabair
or
b. Complete a JAA Ab to ATPL type course at an Overseas FTO like Orlando Flight Training in the USA or Engatia Aviation in Greece AND then afford to complete a type rating
From experience or opinion which is likely to give you the better job prospects.
I know there are some strong opinions about paying for type ratings but that is another discussion all together!
Thanks for your thoughts! NJP
For the same cost, circa £65k it is possible to either:
a. Complete a JAA Ab to ATPL Course at a UK FTO like OAT or Cabair
or
b. Complete a JAA Ab to ATPL type course at an Overseas FTO like Orlando Flight Training in the USA or Engatia Aviation in Greece AND then afford to complete a type rating
From experience or opinion which is likely to give you the better job prospects.
I know there are some strong opinions about paying for type ratings but that is another discussion all together!
Thanks for your thoughts! NJP
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: Netherlands
Hi, I am also seriously considering to start a career in aviation but, as a lot of people, still not sure which path to follow. On one side I like the modular route, on the financial side but also because the fact that you have a lot of freedom by completely outlining your own course path.
On the other side, the integrated route looks also very attractive to me in terms of study time and the contacts an integrated FTO possibly has with airliners (differs per school ofcourse...)
But, for me, with almost zero flight experience as a PIC (only did a discovery flight which I really enjoyed
) I find it a huge step to go from here all the way to a frozen ATPL. So personally I prefer a path of first getting a PPL and THEN decide to make the step all the way to a frozen ATPL. So some kind of an integrated course after you've got your PPL but without the PPL part of course.
Can someone tell me if this kind of path exists or is it just foolish
what I am thinking of and is modular the only option in this situation. Hope someone can help. Thanks in advance!
On the other side, the integrated route looks also very attractive to me in terms of study time and the contacts an integrated FTO possibly has with airliners (differs per school ofcourse...)
But, for me, with almost zero flight experience as a PIC (only did a discovery flight which I really enjoyed
) I find it a huge step to go from here all the way to a frozen ATPL. So personally I prefer a path of first getting a PPL and THEN decide to make the step all the way to a frozen ATPL. So some kind of an integrated course after you've got your PPL but without the PPL part of course. Can someone tell me if this kind of path exists or is it just foolish
what I am thinking of and is modular the only option in this situation. Hope someone can help. Thanks in advance!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: Cheshire, England
Hi there Foo,
I was in your position a while back so hopefully can offer a bit of advice -
The one thing that I must emphasise is please don't go and sign up for an integrated training course until you have done some more flying!
You need to be REALLY sure that an aviation career is right for you and the best way to start is a PPL. Not only do you learn a lot about flying you will also make a load of new friends and contacts that will start you on your way if you decide it is still a career you want to pursue. There is a lot of networking involved in getting a job as a professional pilot, 'Fancy Navigator' is entirely wrong in his assessment though, it is not simply who you know although networking can play an important part. Anyway everyone knows this in the industry and you find people help each other out a lot when it comes to looking for work!
So in answer to you main point I would say definitely do a PPL first, then you can be sure before you splash the cash! It used to be the case (and I would hope still is) that schools will reduce the cost of an integrated course appropriately if you already have a PPL so you should not have to rule this path out.
I hope this help and best of luck!
I was in your position a while back so hopefully can offer a bit of advice -
The one thing that I must emphasise is please don't go and sign up for an integrated training course until you have done some more flying!
You need to be REALLY sure that an aviation career is right for you and the best way to start is a PPL. Not only do you learn a lot about flying you will also make a load of new friends and contacts that will start you on your way if you decide it is still a career you want to pursue. There is a lot of networking involved in getting a job as a professional pilot, 'Fancy Navigator' is entirely wrong in his assessment though, it is not simply who you know although networking can play an important part. Anyway everyone knows this in the industry and you find people help each other out a lot when it comes to looking for work!So in answer to you main point I would say definitely do a PPL first, then you can be sure before you splash the cash! It used to be the case (and I would hope still is) that schools will reduce the cost of an integrated course appropriately if you already have a PPL so you should not have to rule this path out.
I hope this help and best of luck!
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: 51 30 N / 0 10 W
FAA/JAA + integrated/modular dilemma
Greetings, wondering if any of you guys would approve of this plan or have possibly gone through this route:
Current status: JAA PPL
Intention:
USA - FAA integrated/Instructor ratings (through Flightsafety) + JAA CPL/IR/ATPL/Instructor ratings (through EFT) + hour building through instruction then return to the UK
OR
UK - JAA integrated through to fATPL (or modular) bearing in mind no hour building
Budget = £50,000
What would you opt for? I honestly don't wish to start another integrated vs modular discussion, have searched through the other threads but can't seem to find anything similar. Any advice would be appreciated.
Regards
Current status: JAA PPL
Intention:
USA - FAA integrated/Instructor ratings (through Flightsafety) + JAA CPL/IR/ATPL/Instructor ratings (through EFT) + hour building through instruction then return to the UK
OR
UK - JAA integrated through to fATPL (or modular) bearing in mind no hour building
Budget = £50,000
What would you opt for? I honestly don't wish to start another integrated vs modular discussion, have searched through the other threads but can't seem to find anything similar. Any advice would be appreciated.
Regards
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 419
Likes: 4
From: Westward TV
weis,
judging that you want the JAA licences, i'm assuming that your ultimate goal is to work in europe. so in your situation, getting all the associated FAA crap is a waste of time. get your JAA licences (either in the states, but preferably in europe) plus an instructors rating straight away.
going to the states for 2 years on a J1 visa will give you just as many hours as you can gain back home, however you are much more likely to build up contacts for the shiny RHS whilst instructing in the UK rather than slogging round florida with some fat septics.
judging that you want the JAA licences, i'm assuming that your ultimate goal is to work in europe. so in your situation, getting all the associated FAA crap is a waste of time. get your JAA licences (either in the states, but preferably in europe) plus an instructors rating straight away.
going to the states for 2 years on a J1 visa will give you just as many hours as you can gain back home, however you are much more likely to build up contacts for the shiny RHS whilst instructing in the UK rather than slogging round florida with some fat septics.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 829
Likes: 0
From: South Wales
Advise on 'Where to start'?
Hey guys I have a couple of questions that I’d like answering/a bit of direction. I have been on this forum so much in the evenings and even during my work time (not that the boss knows).
I don’t want to be the typical guy you get on here asking questions that get answered day after day after day but I feel that some things are not so clear or people differ in opinions.
My ideal job is to be an Airline Pilot - Infact I’d settle for anything so long as I can fly for a living (FI). I have looked at the good points and the bad points and I still think the airline job is my one big goal in life than needs to be achieved.
My background;
21/01/82 making me 24 at the moment.
6’2” and confident I’d pass the Class 1 Medical.
Was in the ATC at 13 and 3 months and left when I was 17 and clocked only 7.5 hours in a Chipmunk/Bulldog/Viking Glider.
I just about passed my A’level Maths(F) after moving from a Welsh school to an English school and also had a Merit in my GNVQ IT. (I am fluent in both English and Welsh).
I studied Multimedia Tech at Uni and passed my BSc with a 2:2
I currently work as a Web Designer / IT Advisor / IT Teacher for a local company for about £20k per year.
I have £10k for my training so far.
I was looking to do my PPL but after finding out more on this forum I am going to go all the way if funds/ability allows it. But I am stuck between Integrated and Modular course?
I am I right in thinking the following;
Integrated with OAT/CabAir/FTE will give me a better chance of landing my 1st RHS job quicker and I’ll have an advantage due to being Integrated?
If I did a Modular with OAT/CabAir/FTE would the Airline look at me as being trained to the same standard as the Integrated students at OAT/CabAir/FTE?
Am I better off getting my PPL and applying for a sponsorship with e.g. Flybe or leaving my hours blank so CabAir can mold me into exactly what Flybe want with no bad habits to correct? Would a PPL really show I am a dedicated applicant and serious about flying?
Try and keep to no more than 2/3 flight schools?
The fAPTL expires after 3 years? Does this mean if I self fund myself through £70k of training I might loose a lot of it if I don’t get a job within 3 years? (I don’t understand).
I read a forum user stating an airline don’t care if you are integrated/modular – They would prefer a applicant who has an fATPL / Type Rating / Many hours in the big blue sky?
These are my ideas so far –
I know of 6 people who have self funded themselves through Pilot training and all have landed Pilot jobs with good airlines (BA/GB/easyjet etc). To my knowledge 5 of them did Integrated and 1 of them took 4 years to complete the modular route and clocked up 1,000+ hours (apparently at a cost of £70k+) and will be starting a job with easyjet within a month or two.
Sorry for the long post
Regards
Andrew
I don’t want to be the typical guy you get on here asking questions that get answered day after day after day but I feel that some things are not so clear or people differ in opinions.
My ideal job is to be an Airline Pilot - Infact I’d settle for anything so long as I can fly for a living (FI). I have looked at the good points and the bad points and I still think the airline job is my one big goal in life than needs to be achieved.
My background;
21/01/82 making me 24 at the moment.
6’2” and confident I’d pass the Class 1 Medical.
Was in the ATC at 13 and 3 months and left when I was 17 and clocked only 7.5 hours in a Chipmunk/Bulldog/Viking Glider.
I just about passed my A’level Maths(F) after moving from a Welsh school to an English school and also had a Merit in my GNVQ IT. (I am fluent in both English and Welsh).
I studied Multimedia Tech at Uni and passed my BSc with a 2:2
I currently work as a Web Designer / IT Advisor / IT Teacher for a local company for about £20k per year.
I have £10k for my training so far.
I was looking to do my PPL but after finding out more on this forum I am going to go all the way if funds/ability allows it. But I am stuck between Integrated and Modular course?
I am I right in thinking the following;
Integrated with OAT/CabAir/FTE will give me a better chance of landing my 1st RHS job quicker and I’ll have an advantage due to being Integrated?
If I did a Modular with OAT/CabAir/FTE would the Airline look at me as being trained to the same standard as the Integrated students at OAT/CabAir/FTE?
Am I better off getting my PPL and applying for a sponsorship with e.g. Flybe or leaving my hours blank so CabAir can mold me into exactly what Flybe want with no bad habits to correct? Would a PPL really show I am a dedicated applicant and serious about flying?
Try and keep to no more than 2/3 flight schools?
The fAPTL expires after 3 years? Does this mean if I self fund myself through £70k of training I might loose a lot of it if I don’t get a job within 3 years? (I don’t understand).
I read a forum user stating an airline don’t care if you are integrated/modular – They would prefer a applicant who has an fATPL / Type Rating / Many hours in the big blue sky?
These are my ideas so far –
- Apply to Flybe when they reopen the application for training in Jan 2008 saving money in the process toward my share.
- Quit/Take time off work (60 days) do the ‘ATPL Prep’ at Ormond Beach for £10k. Come back find another job and start studying for my ATPL exams at Bristol ground school. When I finish them go to OAT/CabAir/FTE to do my CPL/IR/MCC/JOC.
- Wait a while (build up some money for another 18 months) and self-fund myself through the 0-ATPL at egnatia aviation for £30k, and when I get home to a MCC with a local flight school which will cost another £2,500 or £5k with a JOC.
- Get a £50,000 HSBC Loan and go with OAP/CabAir in a hope that their reputation will get me on the flight deck. (Secured on my parents home – which is not what I want to do).
- Get my PPL and Night Rating done and build up 150 hours and apply for the ‘WayPoint Pilot Program’ at OAT at a cost of £5/6k for the PPL & Night Rating and another £25/30k for WayPoint.
- Re-sit my A-level Maths and take up a Physics A-level in a local collage, in a hope of getting a good grade. Pick up an additional language like Spanish to make my CV look a little better to an airline before I do one of the above (all the while saving money for the training).
I know of 6 people who have self funded themselves through Pilot training and all have landed Pilot jobs with good airlines (BA/GB/easyjet etc). To my knowledge 5 of them did Integrated and 1 of them took 4 years to complete the modular route and clocked up 1,000+ hours (apparently at a cost of £70k+) and will be starting a job with easyjet within a month or two.
Sorry for the long post
Regards
Andrew
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,114
Likes: 0
From: UK
Couple of things that might make your decision easier. The OAT/Jerez integrated courses aren't £50k I am afraid, likely closer to £100k (and excluding living costs). Modular will depend on a number of factors including where you go (US or UK or some other far flung place). Expect to not get much change from £50k though and not much more than 250 hours at the end of it. Of course that will be the fatpl only (PPL, ME, CPL, IR, MCC).A type rating can add on another 10-25k depending on aircraft should you decide to go down that path but that is a few years away so leave the decision on that for another day and who knows what the market will hold for us all in the next few years in anycase.
I am pretty sure I read somewhere that the likes of HSBC etc aren't providing professional studies loans anymore. Perhaps OATS, Jerez, Cabair etc have relationships with local banks that can get you the finance required, however, I am pretty sure if going modular that finance has all but dried up unless of course the security you can offer on your folks house swings the bank manager.
I think it is fair to say that if getting into the RHS of a jet with a major airline and less than 250 hours under your belt sets your world on fire then go integrated, assuming you can fund it. BUT and a big BUT, you might never get picked up by one of the airlines. In order to maximise your chances you will need:-
- high passes in the ATPL ground school subjects
- first time passes on the flying side within minimum of time
- a decent personality
- get along with everybody - students and instructors/management
- don't fall out with the instructors who will constantly be assessing you and will of course be the ones who recommend you to the airlines
- be in the right place at the right time. Unfortunately if you finish and no one is hiring then you might miss out purely because you aren't at school the day that Mr BA knocks on the door asking for 10 cadets. That is the way the cookie crumbles I am afraid.
Having done all of that you still need to pass any sim ride, interviews entrance exams, group workshops or psychometric tests that the airlines require of you.
If you are pretty confident that you can do all of the above then go for it. If your not sure then you might just want to save yourself some cash and go modular. There are a lot of ex integrated students that never made it into an airline for whatever reason - more likely bad timing if nothing else. Of course OAT etc won't tell you that in their marketing spin.
Finally, the fatpl won't expire so long as get your IR within the prescribed time and don't let it get to far out of date. You would be foolish to let it lapse in anycase as it doesn't take much rocket science to work out that a pilot who is current on type with a valid IR is much likelier to pass a sim ride than someone who has gone back to work and let it all slip. LASORS (do a search) has all the rules and regs on what you need to get and how long everything stays current.
Good luck.
I am pretty sure I read somewhere that the likes of HSBC etc aren't providing professional studies loans anymore. Perhaps OATS, Jerez, Cabair etc have relationships with local banks that can get you the finance required, however, I am pretty sure if going modular that finance has all but dried up unless of course the security you can offer on your folks house swings the bank manager.
I think it is fair to say that if getting into the RHS of a jet with a major airline and less than 250 hours under your belt sets your world on fire then go integrated, assuming you can fund it. BUT and a big BUT, you might never get picked up by one of the airlines. In order to maximise your chances you will need:-
- high passes in the ATPL ground school subjects
- first time passes on the flying side within minimum of time
- a decent personality
- get along with everybody - students and instructors/management
- don't fall out with the instructors who will constantly be assessing you and will of course be the ones who recommend you to the airlines
- be in the right place at the right time. Unfortunately if you finish and no one is hiring then you might miss out purely because you aren't at school the day that Mr BA knocks on the door asking for 10 cadets. That is the way the cookie crumbles I am afraid.
Having done all of that you still need to pass any sim ride, interviews entrance exams, group workshops or psychometric tests that the airlines require of you.
If you are pretty confident that you can do all of the above then go for it. If your not sure then you might just want to save yourself some cash and go modular. There are a lot of ex integrated students that never made it into an airline for whatever reason - more likely bad timing if nothing else. Of course OAT etc won't tell you that in their marketing spin.
Finally, the fatpl won't expire so long as get your IR within the prescribed time and don't let it get to far out of date. You would be foolish to let it lapse in anycase as it doesn't take much rocket science to work out that a pilot who is current on type with a valid IR is much likelier to pass a sim ride than someone who has gone back to work and let it all slip. LASORS (do a search) has all the rules and regs on what you need to get and how long everything stays current.
Good luck.
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: UK
The school im attending at the monent for the atpl groundschool does modular and integrated routes. All my modular class can seem to decifer is that intergrated students pay an extra £25000 for a PPL and some hours, oh and some airline prep interviews that ive been told arent worthwhile anyhow! Ok so integrated may mean you get a better shot at an airline job straight from qualifying, but this isnt always the case. £25k extra for a slight better shot at a direct entry airline job. Alot of the intergrated students still have to pay a type rating after qualifying so theyre into spending the wrong side of £100,000
I'll stick to my modular training and have the £25k for a type rating heaven forbid i have to pay for one
You do the maths
I'll stick to my modular training and have the £25k for a type rating heaven forbid i have to pay for one
You do the maths
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 829
Likes: 0
From: South Wales
Thanks potkettleblack,
I have been sent a PM with very good information too.
With regard to the cost at Integrated at the big schools I knew it would be more like £80/90/100k but I just stated that HSBC (OAT local) will offer up to £50k if you go integrated. Modular would have to be self funded .
I don't think I would be too happy being one of the integrated pilots having spent £80k+ and still no RHS. But I have been asdvised to look at the 'CTC Wings - Cadet' as I have nothing to lose. If I fail to get in I will go modular and sit my ATPL myself then re-apply to CTC for the 'Wings - ATP' failing that I will simply have to foot the bill for the CPL/IR/MCC myself at another flying school within 3 years of my last ATPL exam.
Thanks again for your time and reply (it is helping me a lot)
Andrew
I have been sent a PM with very good information too.
With regard to the cost at Integrated at the big schools I knew it would be more like £80/90/100k but I just stated that HSBC (OAT local) will offer up to £50k if you go integrated. Modular would have to be self funded
.I don't think I would be too happy being one of the integrated pilots having spent £80k+ and still no RHS. But I have been asdvised to look at the 'CTC Wings - Cadet' as I have nothing to lose. If I fail to get in I will go modular and sit my ATPL myself then re-apply to CTC for the 'Wings - ATP' failing that I will simply have to foot the bill for the CPL/IR/MCC myself at another flying school within 3 years of my last ATPL exam.
Thanks again for your time and reply (it is helping me a lot)
Andrew
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 829
Likes: 0
From: South Wales
Thank you Scottie,
In all honesty that does seem the case. I guess If I can do my modular steps from PPL to ATPL/CPL/IR within 1.5/2 years that should prove that I can work under a time limit/stress (although it would mean taking time off work for sure).
The catch I see is coming out of an integrated course with 250 hours and landing a job is good
- But if I go modular and come out with 250 hours under my belt I am still short of 750 hours before being considered for a small airline. If I add this hour building cost to the modular route it'll probably make it more expensive than integrated 
I guess the other option is to go modular and pick up an FI and then get paid a small amount to build up my additional 750 hours needed for the RHS. I'd be happy to take a pay cut to work full time as a FI doing something I love ... never know I might love being a FI that much I might stay put
Thanks
Andrew
In all honesty that does seem the case. I guess If I can do my modular steps from PPL to ATPL/CPL/IR within 1.5/2 years that should prove that I can work under a time limit/stress (although it would mean taking time off work for sure).
The catch I see is coming out of an integrated course with 250 hours and landing a job is good
- But if I go modular and come out with 250 hours under my belt I am still short of 750 hours before being considered for a small airline. If I add this hour building cost to the modular route it'll probably make it more expensive than integrated I guess the other option is to go modular and pick up an FI and then get paid a small amount to build up my additional 750 hours needed for the RHS. I'd be happy to take a pay cut to work full time as a FI doing something I love ... never know I might love being a FI that much I might stay put
Thanks
Andrew
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: UK
Andrew,
Whether you do intergrated or modular your only going to come out with the same rough hours of around 200-250hrs. Nobody expects you to pay for 750hours by yourself.
Many integrated students still go without jobs for ages, or will have to go down the instruction or self type rating funding route like many modular students. Of the numbers of people who do intergrated courses only 50% get put forward and only 25% will normally get direct placements tops from the likes of Cabair or OAT.
With everything in aviation its who you know and when and where you apply.
Talking of time limits, theres very little difference. Your talking 18months for an intergrated course, and as long as your fairly full time at modular it doesnt take much longer to do it. For example with myself, i will be working here and there to fund the course as i go along. Forgetting about my PPL, from the date i started my hour building up to being full qualified (PPL, Night, MER, CPL, IR, MCC) im looking at roughly one year, give or take, add to this the couple of months it took me to do my PPL and night rating etc, were not talking much over 18months, so not too far off intergrated route. Add to it another month to do an instructors rating its not bad going.
For me i will be fully qualified at 20, so it wont be the end of the world if i end up instructing for a few years, as i will still be under say 25, so im not in a real rush for an airline job (although it would be nice) once ive qualified. For you it may be different.
Scott
Whether you do intergrated or modular your only going to come out with the same rough hours of around 200-250hrs. Nobody expects you to pay for 750hours by yourself.
Many integrated students still go without jobs for ages, or will have to go down the instruction or self type rating funding route like many modular students. Of the numbers of people who do intergrated courses only 50% get put forward and only 25% will normally get direct placements tops from the likes of Cabair or OAT.
With everything in aviation its who you know and when and where you apply.
Talking of time limits, theres very little difference. Your talking 18months for an intergrated course, and as long as your fairly full time at modular it doesnt take much longer to do it. For example with myself, i will be working here and there to fund the course as i go along. Forgetting about my PPL, from the date i started my hour building up to being full qualified (PPL, Night, MER, CPL, IR, MCC) im looking at roughly one year, give or take, add to this the couple of months it took me to do my PPL and night rating etc, were not talking much over 18months, so not too far off intergrated route. Add to it another month to do an instructors rating its not bad going.
For me i will be fully qualified at 20, so it wont be the end of the world if i end up instructing for a few years, as i will still be under say 25, so im not in a real rush for an airline job (although it would be nice) once ive qualified. For you it may be different.
Scott
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 829
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From: South Wales
Scottie it looks like you are on to a good thing there!
25 years old with 4/5 years of instructing under your belt and fully qualified. A Captain in the making for sure ... Looks like I'll be in my late 20's or even 30's before I get the shout.
Andrew
25 years old with 4/5 years of instructing under your belt and fully qualified. A Captain in the making for sure
... Looks like I'll be in my late 20's or even 30's before I get the shout.Andrew
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: UK
Dont worry about that. You will have the same qualification and still easily be within recruitment criteria!!! From what ive heard lately too, on a CV too you will possibly look a better candidate than say myself, as alot of airlines like to employ people with a bit more 'life experience and age' behind their belt, not fresh faced punks straight from school lol
Im relatively happy with my plan. Ive been considering delving into multi engine and maybe insturment training to get the twin time up if i do end up instructing. As with everything though, its time, money, and hours
Im sure we will all get there one day eh!?!
Im relatively happy with my plan. Ive been considering delving into multi engine and maybe insturment training to get the twin time up if i do end up instructing. As with everything though, its time, money, and hours
Im sure we will all get there one day eh!?!
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 829
Likes: 0
From: South Wales
I hope so ... We do have age on our side which is the worst fear (qualified at 40/45 and looking for a job). I might be looking at a promotion and a pay rise at work to IT Manager so I guess they are not bad skills to add to my CV.
Good luck Scottie I'm sure we'll meet again.
Andrew
Good luck Scottie I'm sure we'll meet again.
Andrew