The never-ending 'Modular vs. Integrated' debate - merged ad nauseam
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,711
Likes: 1
From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Modular - get a PPL, do CPL/ATPL exams whilst building hours, do CPL flying course, then other ratings, qualifications and hours before getting full ATPL.
Integrated (note, one "r") - start from scratch with ATPL exams and CPL flying course etc.
Integrated is generally full-time and more costly but can be accomplished in less time overall. Modular is part-time and can fit around an existing job.
Cheers
Whirls
Integrated (note, one "r") - start from scratch with ATPL exams and CPL flying course etc.
Integrated is generally full-time and more costly but can be accomplished in less time overall. Modular is part-time and can fit around an existing job.
Cheers
Whirls
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
Firstly, the search function on this website is !!!!, who can blame the guy for posting a new thread to do with this topic.
Secondly, MCGOO, my good friend, what has happened to you recently? the quality of your posts has gone way downhill.
"put your tin hat on", how is that gonna help the poor guy?
Quote: Felix Saddler:
"Hi this thread contains all the info you are looking for,
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=218620
FS.
( For future reference be careful when posting repetitive questions that can be easily located using the search function, some people on here dont take too kindly to 'lazyness'.)"
That kind of excellent advice used to be Mcgoo's domain. I once thought he was moderator material, now i'm not too sure.
Thirdly,
The baboon's take on looking at things with respect to modular or integrated training is to divide the different training routes under different headings for comparison.
1. Cost.
The average price for an integrated course is around 60000 pounds, modular, between 30-40000 pounds. A modular course is on average about 20000 pounds cheaper to end up with the same qualifications.
2. Time taken to complete training.
The full time integrated courses as marketed by the likes of Oxford and Cabair are said to take around 12 months to complete. A modular course, comprising of PPL, ATPL theory, hours building, CPL, MEP rating, IR and MCC can also be completed in the same amount of time if done continuously on a full time basis.
3. Quality of Training.
As the standards for the CPL and IR skills tests are the same for modular or integrated training students, there is no clear cut reason to believe that that students that have one training route should be any better or worse than those who have flown the other.
4. Job Prospects
Integrated course providers claim that they have "connections with airlines", which enable them to place their students into jobs upon completion of training. Having met a couple of integrated students to whom this has happened, I believe that there is some weight to such claims. However, it is a well known fact ( see here:http://www.gapan.org/careers/survey.htm) that airlines have no preference towards integrated or modular students. Therefore, unless you are lucky enough that your name is given when Xairways rings up your flying school asking for trainee pilots, there is no advantage with respect to job hunting through going integrated.
5. Flying enjoyment.
An integrated course results in a FATPL with around 30 hrs less flying time than a mod course. Therefore, if you really enjoy flying, which I would hope you do, you will get 30 hrs more flying enjoyment out of going modular as opposed to going integrated. Also, going modular will give you the chance to do your hours building as you please, flying in a whole host of interesting places. Modular students regularly hour build in places such as the US, South Africa, Australia, Outer mongolia, etc, where simply being in such a place is as much an experience as the flying itself.
Here at Air Baboon we take both modular and integrated students, see www.flybaboo.com for more infornation.
Our sister training orgainsation, Baboon flight training (www.baboonflighttraining.com) , based in Tanzania also offers a full modular FATPL course, with a very reasonable price tag of 40000 bananas, and is the only JAA approved flight school operating in Africa.
Secondly, MCGOO, my good friend, what has happened to you recently? the quality of your posts has gone way downhill.
"put your tin hat on", how is that gonna help the poor guy?
Quote: Felix Saddler:
"Hi this thread contains all the info you are looking for,
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=218620
FS.
( For future reference be careful when posting repetitive questions that can be easily located using the search function, some people on here dont take too kindly to 'lazyness'.)"
That kind of excellent advice used to be Mcgoo's domain. I once thought he was moderator material, now i'm not too sure.
Thirdly,
The baboon's take on looking at things with respect to modular or integrated training is to divide the different training routes under different headings for comparison.
1. Cost.
The average price for an integrated course is around 60000 pounds, modular, between 30-40000 pounds. A modular course is on average about 20000 pounds cheaper to end up with the same qualifications.
2. Time taken to complete training.
The full time integrated courses as marketed by the likes of Oxford and Cabair are said to take around 12 months to complete. A modular course, comprising of PPL, ATPL theory, hours building, CPL, MEP rating, IR and MCC can also be completed in the same amount of time if done continuously on a full time basis.
3. Quality of Training.
As the standards for the CPL and IR skills tests are the same for modular or integrated training students, there is no clear cut reason to believe that that students that have one training route should be any better or worse than those who have flown the other.
4. Job Prospects
Integrated course providers claim that they have "connections with airlines", which enable them to place their students into jobs upon completion of training. Having met a couple of integrated students to whom this has happened, I believe that there is some weight to such claims. However, it is a well known fact ( see here:http://www.gapan.org/careers/survey.htm) that airlines have no preference towards integrated or modular students. Therefore, unless you are lucky enough that your name is given when Xairways rings up your flying school asking for trainee pilots, there is no advantage with respect to job hunting through going integrated.
5. Flying enjoyment.
An integrated course results in a FATPL with around 30 hrs less flying time than a mod course. Therefore, if you really enjoy flying, which I would hope you do, you will get 30 hrs more flying enjoyment out of going modular as opposed to going integrated. Also, going modular will give you the chance to do your hours building as you please, flying in a whole host of interesting places. Modular students regularly hour build in places such as the US, South Africa, Australia, Outer mongolia, etc, where simply being in such a place is as much an experience as the flying itself.
Here at Air Baboon we take both modular and integrated students, see www.flybaboo.com for more infornation.
Our sister training orgainsation, Baboon flight training (www.baboonflighttraining.com) , based in Tanzania also offers a full modular FATPL course, with a very reasonable price tag of 40000 bananas, and is the only JAA approved flight school operating in Africa.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: FL0005
Do BA only take Integrated course graduates?
I thought I would add this to the information in this thread as it is a point that comes up for everyone when deciding which route to take for training.
Do BA only hire students from integrated courses?
The answer I received from British Airways is that they only hire low hours pilots from integrated courses, but that is only for low hours pilots. For a pilot meeting the minimum hours for direct entry they do not distinguish between integrated and modular.
So if you decide on the modular route then your first job won't be with BA, but it doesn't rule you out permanently.
Hope this is of use to some of you.
Rob
Do BA only hire students from integrated courses?
The answer I received from British Airways is that they only hire low hours pilots from integrated courses, but that is only for low hours pilots. For a pilot meeting the minimum hours for direct entry they do not distinguish between integrated and modular.
So if you decide on the modular route then your first job won't be with BA, but it doesn't rule you out permanently.
Hope this is of use to some of you.
Rob
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,164
Likes: 0
From: UK
Rob,
Thats old news im afraid, its been that way for years. As a slight aside, you should actually look at how many integrated students/percentage of int studes actually find employment with BA per year. OAT's figures for last year claim 27 people were succesful. How many hundreds did they train though?? Only the very select few actually get BA, you need high % first time passes in everything(ATPL' subjects aswell as flying tests) before your even considered. Unless a student is 'pick of the bunch' then look elsewhere.
Thats old news im afraid, its been that way for years. As a slight aside, you should actually look at how many integrated students/percentage of int studes actually find employment with BA per year. OAT's figures for last year claim 27 people were succesful. How many hundreds did they train though?? Only the very select few actually get BA, you need high % first time passes in everything(ATPL' subjects aswell as flying tests) before your even considered. Unless a student is 'pick of the bunch' then look elsewhere.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: Room 249
Have to admit that i'm going to APP at OAT and the BA job isn't a line that's been used on me at any point, all they said to me is that BA hire from there and that competition for places with them is very tough, have to admit I remember hearing one post that said about BA pilots only being hired from integrated OAT courses - some people do seem to have heard more pressing sales pitches than me but I've never met anyone who's actually gone down there (present or past) on the promise of a BA job/interview!
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: Room 249
Would also add that if you're looking at going on a course, be it modular or integrated, my advice would be to look at all the relevant flying schools, modular and integrated if you can afford it, and make your own decision once you have read everything factual that you can lay your hands on. I went down to look at cabair last year and there were people asking if you have to be rated on a particular type of aeroplane once you had your fATPL and one guy asked if type ratings were for each plane or if it was one for Boeing, one for Airbus!!!! Unbelievable! Don't go anywhere until you have looked at all of the company websites, and spoken to a few flying schools, because what I found on PPRUNE is a lot of people's opinions which gave me no real better insight into the best way to train! The best posts I have read, and those that i have realised are true, are make your particular training choice on your own decisions - one man's meat is another man's poison!
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
From: London
Did you get a job after completing your modular course?
I have just read another thread where a low hours student of BCFT has just landed a jet job at LHR. It proves it's pointless spending approx £60000 at an integrated school when a smaller outfit will still get you the job for approx £23000.
It would be very useful for all of us if we could gain an awareness of who went to which modular school and how soon they found employment, including if they had to buy a type rating to that job.
There is another thread that has tried to get this info but it has lost it's way,so for everybodys sake lets keep it to the theme,it could save us thousands!
It would be very useful for all of us if we could gain an awareness of who went to which modular school and how soon they found employment, including if they had to buy a type rating to that job.
There is another thread that has tried to get this info but it has lost it's way,so for everybodys sake lets keep it to the theme,it could save us thousands!
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Manchester
Integrated IS SIMPLY SUPERIOR to modular
Hi, i've been reading these threads for a coulpe of years now and i think it's time to let people know the harsh realities of the aviation world.
In my experience and in the experience of ALL my friends, integrated students find life much much easier in the first time job market. This is simply not up for debate. With the exception of about 5% of the people who i graduated with (may 06) all of us are flying big shiny jets. I'm flying a 737-800NG for a large uk charter airline and i have friends in ba, bmi easyjet, jet2 and thomascook to name but a few. You've probably guessed i went to oxford, where i met lots of modular students too. these guys, all nice people, just struggled when it came time to find a job only 2 of the 12 guys i'm still in touch with are actually being paid to fly aircraft -one in a seneca doing air taxi for about £6000 a year and the other is instructing in a 152 after laying out another few grand for an instructor rating. another one is actually p2 in that skyvan piece of dung pigy - and not even getting a dime for his troubles.
so there you have it, the best modular students (oxford ones) in the country just can't get jobs.
All the airlines oxford put people forward to just aren't interested in modular students, atleast not when there a so many integrated students ready and waiting.
whether you think this is fair or not is irrelevant, it's fact and that's life. it sickens me when i see people here telling wannabes the modular is just as good (if not better) than integrated. this is rubbish, coming from bitter modular students, and it's completely unfair to wannabes who have no other source of info.
It doesn't matter if you pass everything first time as a modular student because if you can't get your cv in the door no-ones going to know. Anyway, airlines know that the ir examiners a the integrated schools are notably tougher than at the little modular schools.
In my experience and in the experience of ALL my friends, integrated students find life much much easier in the first time job market. This is simply not up for debate. With the exception of about 5% of the people who i graduated with (may 06) all of us are flying big shiny jets. I'm flying a 737-800NG for a large uk charter airline and i have friends in ba, bmi easyjet, jet2 and thomascook to name but a few. You've probably guessed i went to oxford, where i met lots of modular students too. these guys, all nice people, just struggled when it came time to find a job only 2 of the 12 guys i'm still in touch with are actually being paid to fly aircraft -one in a seneca doing air taxi for about £6000 a year and the other is instructing in a 152 after laying out another few grand for an instructor rating. another one is actually p2 in that skyvan piece of dung pigy - and not even getting a dime for his troubles.
so there you have it, the best modular students (oxford ones) in the country just can't get jobs.
All the airlines oxford put people forward to just aren't interested in modular students, atleast not when there a so many integrated students ready and waiting.
whether you think this is fair or not is irrelevant, it's fact and that's life. it sickens me when i see people here telling wannabes the modular is just as good (if not better) than integrated. this is rubbish, coming from bitter modular students, and it's completely unfair to wannabes who have no other source of info.
It doesn't matter if you pass everything first time as a modular student because if you can't get your cv in the door no-ones going to know. Anyway, airlines know that the ir examiners a the integrated schools are notably tougher than at the little modular schools.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,606
Likes: 0
From: UK
Clearly, you are aiming for a career in the diplomatic service following your aviation career?? Or maybe not.
While it is well known that it is easier to get a job as an integrated student, you do take a line of implying superior skills, which we all know is not a given from an integrated, or indeed a modular student. We also all know of modular sucesses within BA (not always after brief stints elsewhere), and that many others are successful elsewhere
Whilst admirably promoting debate (and information for the young and unsuspecting), I suspect that the following ten posts will result in your thread being deleted...
While it is well known that it is easier to get a job as an integrated student, you do take a line of implying superior skills, which we all know is not a given from an integrated, or indeed a modular student. We also all know of modular sucesses within BA (not always after brief stints elsewhere), and that many others are successful elsewhere
Whilst admirably promoting debate (and information for the young and unsuspecting), I suspect that the following ten posts will result in your thread being deleted...
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,711
Likes: 1
From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
the harsh realities of the aviation world.
Cheers
Whirls
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
From: In a place where I dont have to fly for food.
Wow, bit of steam let off. I am looking forward to going down the modular route and getting some individual treatment during my training. Integrated courses are not suitable for myself and i too do not want to fly between two points trying not to spill gin & tonics.
Well done on getting the job though.
Well done on getting the job though.
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
From: UK
Whether it is up for debate or not is a moot point, but why do you think that the airlines do take integrated students before modular?
Clearly I don't know enough about it, but I don't accept the harsher IR examiner theory, and, to me, integrated = not enough hours to FATPL, modular = barely enough hours to FATPL. All of this whilst trying to cram in theory learning whilst flying, surely all the info will just fall out again?
Maybe the airlines WANT people who don't know enough so they can teach them everything they know? Or does it just boil down to old fuddy duddies doing the selection being fooled into thinking that integrated is the old self improver replacement? It'd be ironic if that was the case, because if anything the modular route is the new self improver route, but with far fewer hours achieved than previously. Or is it the old boys club when it comes to recruitment recommendations? Or is it just a matter of prestige versus good old fashioned teaching?
Perhaps your (somewhat arrogant and precocious) claim is true - integrated students get an easier ride into jobs, what I am saying is that if so then it's the wrong choice; there again there isn't a good choice: whoever you get is wet behind the ears when it comes to flying with barely 220 hours to his/her name (or YIKES 170 hrs? Here's the keys to my Jet!
). That said it is not easy to pass a CPL/IR, and when you've managed that you've proved something about yourself, no matter how you got there.
Clearly I don't know enough about it, but I don't accept the harsher IR examiner theory, and, to me, integrated = not enough hours to FATPL, modular = barely enough hours to FATPL. All of this whilst trying to cram in theory learning whilst flying, surely all the info will just fall out again?
Maybe the airlines WANT people who don't know enough so they can teach them everything they know? Or does it just boil down to old fuddy duddies doing the selection being fooled into thinking that integrated is the old self improver replacement? It'd be ironic if that was the case, because if anything the modular route is the new self improver route, but with far fewer hours achieved than previously. Or is it the old boys club when it comes to recruitment recommendations? Or is it just a matter of prestige versus good old fashioned teaching?
Perhaps your (somewhat arrogant and precocious) claim is true - integrated students get an easier ride into jobs, what I am saying is that if so then it's the wrong choice; there again there isn't a good choice: whoever you get is wet behind the ears when it comes to flying with barely 220 hours to his/her name (or YIKES 170 hrs? Here's the keys to my Jet!
). That said it is not easy to pass a CPL/IR, and when you've managed that you've proved something about yourself, no matter how you got there.
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
From: Midlands
Blimey, what a complete and utter to55er. . .
I expect in all the seven or eight years since leaving some esteemed place of learning, you earned enough £££ to pay for the "superior" training all by yourself . . . or did mummy and daddy have to help you out a bit???
Some of us will reap the rewards of doing it the hard way. Oh, and carriers will take us Mods on, there's heaps of evidence on this site and others to prove it if you're allowed to stay up late enough (after the watershed that is) to read it.
HW
I expect in all the seven or eight years since leaving some esteemed place of learning, you earned enough £££ to pay for the "superior" training all by yourself . . . or did mummy and daddy have to help you out a bit???
Some of us will reap the rewards of doing it the hard way. Oh, and carriers will take us Mods on, there's heaps of evidence on this site and others to prove it if you're allowed to stay up late enough (after the watershed that is) to read it.
HW