Multi Crew Co-operation Course (MCC)
Join Date: Dec 1997
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My point is you must not choose your MCC provider on the basis of the sim they use. You can get your MCC for less money from a trainer that uses a cheaper training aid and put the money saved towards flying instructional time in a 737/A320 sim if that's what turns you on. Whatever course you choose to take, concentrate on the quality of the training, not the type of box. If the box at the best trainer available happens to represent a modern jet, that may be a bonus (in your eyes!), but it should not be the criterion by which you choose your MCC.
Scroggs
Scroggs
Join Date: Oct 1998
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Scroggs is 100% correct. This issue came up several months ago in our FTO so subsequently I called around 20 European operators and asked the TMs if they would have any preference toward someone who had done MCC in a 737/A320. The answer in all but 1 case was that if anything, they would prefer an MCC done in a generic turboprop (Dash 8, ATR), as the handling skills for this type are somewhat more difficult than an A320. But the main point is that the MCC is not a type rating course, it is, to quote LASORs:
"The aim of this course is to train pilots in the functioning
of the flight crew as a team of co-operating members
led by the pilot-in-command on multi-pilot aircraft, and
its completion is required to endorse an initial multi-pilot
aircraft type on to a licence. This course may be
completed as part of the approved ATPL integrated
course, as a stand-alone course or as part of the initial
multi-pilot type rating training course."
Go with a provider who gives you high quality instruction and a cheaper simulator option.
"The aim of this course is to train pilots in the functioning
of the flight crew as a team of co-operating members
led by the pilot-in-command on multi-pilot aircraft, and
its completion is required to endorse an initial multi-pilot
aircraft type on to a licence. This course may be
completed as part of the approved ATPL integrated
course, as a stand-alone course or as part of the initial
multi-pilot type rating training course."
Go with a provider who gives you high quality instruction and a cheaper simulator option.
Join Date: Dec 2002
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I fully agree with both Flopsie and Scroggs.
My point is simply that if I am going to have a check ride on a jet sim, which I did relatively quickly after completing my MCC, I might as well give myself a head start by flying a jet sim on a 20hr MCC course.
All the instructors on my MCC course were ex RAF and/or retired heavy jet captains and the instruction I got was second to none.
TJ
My point is simply that if I am going to have a check ride on a jet sim, which I did relatively quickly after completing my MCC, I might as well give myself a head start by flying a jet sim on a 20hr MCC course.
All the instructors on my MCC course were ex RAF and/or retired heavy jet captains and the instruction I got was second to none.
TJ
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TurboJ if you want some jet time on your MCC have a look at BCFT in Bournemouth, they use a Tristar sim. The price is reasonable, or it was when I was there. The A320 is more of a automated machine than a regual Jet, when you get a sim check you can be sure it will be in a donkey, Old 727, 737-200 etc the airbus will not help you in any way, it does not have manual trim for gods sake!!!!!!.
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May I suggest you have a look at PARC Aviation in Dublin. They do their MCC course on a B737-200. It's still a Jet but all analog displays and you have to fly it using your own skills and not using the Auto Trim and Auto Thrust helping you out (it doesn't have it for a start). I fly the A320 and trust me when I say this, it will do you no favours practising on one of these fancy sims when it's airline sim check time!
Good luck anyway!
Good luck anyway!
Join Date: Nov 2004
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So, in conclusion, Jetlinx is the only company we are aware of that provides an MCC course on an Airbus, but PARC Aviation in Dublin might be worth a look at also. Sorry, I just went into IMC for a moment!
Join Date: Nov 2003
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For what it's worth Jetlinx is an excellent course run by highly experienced (current) BA and Monarch flight crew. You therefore get an insight into the SOP's of these organisations as well as the A320 or B757 cockpit and systems.
I agree that the course is primarily about MCC and to this end it is first rate, but in my opinion you do get something extra by being exposed to a modern jet with EFIS. Indeed the last session consists of LOFT where you get experience of hand flying the aircraft with FD and Autothrottle switched off.....quite a challenge!
I agree that the course is primarily about MCC and to this end it is first rate, but in my opinion you do get something extra by being exposed to a modern jet with EFIS. Indeed the last session consists of LOFT where you get experience of hand flying the aircraft with FD and Autothrottle switched off.....quite a challenge!
Join Date: Feb 1999
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Some MCC courses will offer the ability to build in some JOC time. I think this is a good thing, and as others have said, it might do you well for a sim-check if you are lucky to have one soon after the course. Parc has a good bit of JOC stuff thrown into their MCC. I did mine with Jetlinx, and while the focus is on MCC, there is time to enable you to get some JOC experience.
I found the prices for FNPT II sims and FMS not too far apart, so it seemed worthwhile to pay a little extra and have limited JOC added to the MCC. Besides, after my IR I felt like rewarding myself. I had a great time and learnt loads. It was a far more useful course than I had realised.
I found the prices for FNPT II sims and FMS not too far apart, so it seemed worthwhile to pay a little extra and have limited JOC added to the MCC. Besides, after my IR I felt like rewarding myself. I had a great time and learnt loads. It was a far more useful course than I had realised.
Join Date: Dec 1997
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Originally Posted by Sir Norman Fry
I fly the A320 and trust me when I say this, it will do you no favours practising on one of these fancy sims when it's airline sim check time!
Good luck anyway!
Good luck anyway!
You may enjoy having a go at a modern type (and I'm sure that's the real reason you want to do so) but don't expect it to help on any sim assessment.
Scroggs
Join Date: May 2001
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You really would be better at getting in contact with WWW about his MCC on a couple of soap boxes and a couple of brooms. If you really want to be in a airbus put the broom next to your leg and if you don't put them between your legs.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Dear All,
Thanks For your contribution! Greatly Appreciated
Most of you would be saying why on earth does this jackass want to get an MCC, and an MCC on an Airbus! Well the Answer is Pretty Simple. I Intend on getting a Job with Air Malta who are currently converting to an all 'bus Fleet!
All my Ground School is done so in my spare time i got my hands on an airbus Type rating CD and manual and studied it a bit. I have also done the same for the 733, as i was using the FCOM and QRH for Many many JAR ATPL exams. I could Safely Say that the G/S is more or less a basic 737 classic type rating all the way don to the Load Sheets!
I understand that the MCC is a course that deals with CRM, however if my chance of getting in with airmalta is goodish, and eventually d a type rating on a 32X, would u still think it to be a good iidea to go ahead with it?
Also would anybody know what Air Malta use as a sim for their interview / Check out?
Many thanks and kind regards
Chris
Thanks For your contribution! Greatly Appreciated
Most of you would be saying why on earth does this jackass want to get an MCC, and an MCC on an Airbus! Well the Answer is Pretty Simple. I Intend on getting a Job with Air Malta who are currently converting to an all 'bus Fleet!
All my Ground School is done so in my spare time i got my hands on an airbus Type rating CD and manual and studied it a bit. I have also done the same for the 733, as i was using the FCOM and QRH for Many many JAR ATPL exams. I could Safely Say that the G/S is more or less a basic 737 classic type rating all the way don to the Load Sheets!
I understand that the MCC is a course that deals with CRM, however if my chance of getting in with airmalta is goodish, and eventually d a type rating on a 32X, would u still think it to be a good iidea to go ahead with it?
Also would anybody know what Air Malta use as a sim for their interview / Check out?
Many thanks and kind regards
Chris
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Your last question is what it's all about...on what sim will the company evaluation take place?
Chances are that your evaluation will be on an older type 737-200, 727 etc because the A320 sims are fully booked months in advance and the old generation sims are just standing there fully written off.
Be sure to find out because it would be a rather big surprise if you had payed 10.000€ for an MCC on A320 and don't perform very well on the evaluation session.
It's a fact that the evaluations are more and more done on 737-3's with basic automation and digital HSI & ADI but there it probably stops.
And don't be fooled by buying an MCC just for the definition of it. CRM's there and you will get the certificate anyway.
Try to fly raw data as much as you can and see it as a tool towards your company evaluation. Just the next step after your ME-IR.
And hey - one step at a time, good to be prepared for a TR but keep your general knowledge up to date to first pass the inteview!
Good luck!
Chances are that your evaluation will be on an older type 737-200, 727 etc because the A320 sims are fully booked months in advance and the old generation sims are just standing there fully written off.
Be sure to find out because it would be a rather big surprise if you had payed 10.000€ for an MCC on A320 and don't perform very well on the evaluation session.
It's a fact that the evaluations are more and more done on 737-3's with basic automation and digital HSI & ADI but there it probably stops.
And don't be fooled by buying an MCC just for the definition of it. CRM's there and you will get the certificate anyway.
Try to fly raw data as much as you can and see it as a tool towards your company evaluation. Just the next step after your ME-IR.
And hey - one step at a time, good to be prepared for a TR but keep your general knowledge up to date to first pass the inteview!
Good luck!
As usual with the MCC debate, as with OAT vs FTE, integrated vs modular, etc., there is, unsurprisingly, a great deal of personal opinion and little or no evidence. It is simply not possible for the recipient of any training to know whether the course that he has completed is better or worse than any other since, at best, he has only second-hand information and, at worst, biased rumour on which to make a comparison.
In the case of the MCC course, it is only the TRIs and SFIs who deal with the product of the modular MCC training providers that have the required objective evidence to make a comparison. On the evidence of the dozens of courses for first MPA type ratings that I have conducted over the past few years, it is clear that it makes absolutely no difference whether or not the MCC course is completed on a jet STD. As Scroggs has said previously - it is the quality of instruction that is paramount and it is only this that should influence the choice of training provider.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but, when seeking to spend large amounts of money in the cause of a career, it is probably better to rely on facts.
Oh, and by the way Lamboo1, the MCC course has almost nothing to do with CRM!
In the case of the MCC course, it is only the TRIs and SFIs who deal with the product of the modular MCC training providers that have the required objective evidence to make a comparison. On the evidence of the dozens of courses for first MPA type ratings that I have conducted over the past few years, it is clear that it makes absolutely no difference whether or not the MCC course is completed on a jet STD. As Scroggs has said previously - it is the quality of instruction that is paramount and it is only this that should influence the choice of training provider.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but, when seeking to spend large amounts of money in the cause of a career, it is probably better to rely on facts.
Oh, and by the way Lamboo1, the MCC course has almost nothing to do with CRM!
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I did mine(MCC) with jetlinx on the A320, and it was excellent.
I chose the a320, because I wanted to try a "real sim"(5-6 axis, efis screen,...)
I simply loved it, and our sim instructor was top.
we enjoyed the sim fom 7-11pm every day of the week.
the sim is great, and this plane is really relax to fly.
when you enter in the sim, it is another world!
my advice: go for it, it worths the extra money you will pay.
I chose the a320, because I wanted to try a "real sim"(5-6 axis, efis screen,...)
I simply loved it, and our sim instructor was top.
we enjoyed the sim fom 7-11pm every day of the week.
the sim is great, and this plane is really relax to fly.
when you enter in the sim, it is another world!
my advice: go for it, it worths the extra money you will pay.
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Originally Posted by dartagnan
I did mine(MCC) with jetlinx on the A320, and it was excellent.
I chose the a320, because I wanted to try a "real sim"(5-6 axis, efis screen,...)
I simply loved it, and our sim instructor was top.
we enjoyed the sim fom 7-11pm every day of the week.
the sim is great, and this plane is really relax to fly.
when you enter in the sim, it is another world!
my advice: go for it, it worths the extra money you will pay.
I chose the a320, because I wanted to try a "real sim"(5-6 axis, efis screen,...)
I simply loved it, and our sim instructor was top.
we enjoyed the sim fom 7-11pm every day of the week.
the sim is great, and this plane is really relax to fly.
when you enter in the sim, it is another world!
my advice: go for it, it worths the extra money you will pay.
I see from your location that you're definitely from another planet......
Whilst I can echo dartagnan's comments you do have to heed what others have said.
Firstly the Jetlinx course is first rate and great fun. I went on the A320 with a guy who had already completed the Oxford MCC (he wanted some JOT on the A320 as he had a job lined up with BMI). He told me first hand that in his opinion the Jetlinx course was far superior to the Oxford one. You cannot ignore the fact that these pilots are current BA and Monarch line pilots, they are using level D sims, they use a set of SOP's which are very close to real world operations and they treat a number of the sessions as LOFT exercises.
The price is £3650 so it's not that much more expensive than far inferior courses. (and it's a hell of a lot cheaper than virtual aviation’s £2000 for 4 hours sim time). Secondly there are a number people who have taken cheaper courses and then paid Jetlinx for sim practice/JOT training working out more expensive in the long run.
However
As has been said don't expect it to help you with sim selection because using the A320 will not help at all. Firstly the A320 has autotrim, and a completely glass cockpit and unless you get a sim check on an A320 it will be of no benefit whatsoever. Secondly, you do very little hands on flying in the MCC course. The flight directors will be on throughout, you'll put the autopilot in almost as soon as you've cleaned up and you won't take it out until established on the glide. If time permits you'll get to do a bit more hands on flying, possibly with raw data but only when the course content has been completed.
In summary I'd recommend the Jetlinx course to anyone, and if you want some JOT practice do it on the 757 rather than the A320 as the 757 is much closer to the sort of thing you'll have a sim check on, but do not just do it to practice for a sim check, do it because it’s a great experience and a superb way to finish off your training.
Firstly the Jetlinx course is first rate and great fun. I went on the A320 with a guy who had already completed the Oxford MCC (he wanted some JOT on the A320 as he had a job lined up with BMI). He told me first hand that in his opinion the Jetlinx course was far superior to the Oxford one. You cannot ignore the fact that these pilots are current BA and Monarch line pilots, they are using level D sims, they use a set of SOP's which are very close to real world operations and they treat a number of the sessions as LOFT exercises.
The price is £3650 so it's not that much more expensive than far inferior courses. (and it's a hell of a lot cheaper than virtual aviation’s £2000 for 4 hours sim time). Secondly there are a number people who have taken cheaper courses and then paid Jetlinx for sim practice/JOT training working out more expensive in the long run.
However
As has been said don't expect it to help you with sim selection because using the A320 will not help at all. Firstly the A320 has autotrim, and a completely glass cockpit and unless you get a sim check on an A320 it will be of no benefit whatsoever. Secondly, you do very little hands on flying in the MCC course. The flight directors will be on throughout, you'll put the autopilot in almost as soon as you've cleaned up and you won't take it out until established on the glide. If time permits you'll get to do a bit more hands on flying, possibly with raw data but only when the course content has been completed.
In summary I'd recommend the Jetlinx course to anyone, and if you want some JOT practice do it on the 757 rather than the A320 as the 757 is much closer to the sort of thing you'll have a sim check on, but do not just do it to practice for a sim check, do it because it’s a great experience and a superb way to finish off your training.
Join Date: Nov 2000
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I did my MCC at SAS FA at Arlanda, Sweden.
Training was done on a Fokker F28 FFS. Although the visual system was strictly night-flying with only black and white shades, it was definately for real when we got windsheared or in a deepstall...
I've had the good fortune to fly the A340/330 sim as well (at another occasion) and comparing these two airplanes, I believe that training on an old relic goes more hand in hand with the previous IR training where there's no EFIS or FMS... Therefore all focus can be shifted towards the CRM and getting used to the higher speeds involved. Also, traditional instrumentation makes for a different way of arriving at situational awareness which I believe enhances the training in respect to SA cues and callouts. Although, I haven't flown the A32X in a training situation, so I guess I cant really comment.
SAS FA is probably not the your best alternative considering that its far away for you, but I have only good things to say about their training and the quality of the instructors.
If you can, try to get hold of an old sim. They' might not be around for long and if you're succesful in this career, you'll be flying EFIS the rest of your life...
At any rate, the MCC was the most rewarding training I have ever done and wherever you end up doing the course, enjoy yourself! It's good fun!
regards/ LnS
Training was done on a Fokker F28 FFS. Although the visual system was strictly night-flying with only black and white shades, it was definately for real when we got windsheared or in a deepstall...
I've had the good fortune to fly the A340/330 sim as well (at another occasion) and comparing these two airplanes, I believe that training on an old relic goes more hand in hand with the previous IR training where there's no EFIS or FMS... Therefore all focus can be shifted towards the CRM and getting used to the higher speeds involved. Also, traditional instrumentation makes for a different way of arriving at situational awareness which I believe enhances the training in respect to SA cues and callouts. Although, I haven't flown the A32X in a training situation, so I guess I cant really comment.
SAS FA is probably not the your best alternative considering that its far away for you, but I have only good things to say about their training and the quality of the instructors.
If you can, try to get hold of an old sim. They' might not be around for long and if you're succesful in this career, you'll be flying EFIS the rest of your life...
At any rate, the MCC was the most rewarding training I have ever done and wherever you end up doing the course, enjoy yourself! It's good fun!
regards/ LnS
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MCC Choices?
Does anyone have any first hand experience of MCC and selection for first job?
Im trying to decide whether or not to do my MCC on a King Air or not and am trying to find out if what sim you do the MCC on holds weight in the interview process or whether its just a tick in the box qualificaion!
Any advice from first hand experience would be appreciated!
Im trying to decide whether or not to do my MCC on a King Air or not and am trying to find out if what sim you do the MCC on holds weight in the interview process or whether its just a tick in the box qualificaion!
Any advice from first hand experience would be appreciated!