Multi Crew Co-operation Course (MCC)
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Up In The Sky...
Posts: 328
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At an airline selection, we were asked who did their mcc in a jet FFS.....?
Now you can call this coincidence if you like and I'm sure there are plenty out there who'll disagree,.... but the ones who hadn't done a jet mcc, didn't pass. Buy a cheap mcc, & you'll kick yourself for it in the long run.
Best of luck with whatever you decide......
Now you can call this coincidence if you like and I'm sure there are plenty out there who'll disagree,.... but the ones who hadn't done a jet mcc, didn't pass. Buy a cheap mcc, & you'll kick yourself for it in the long run.
Best of luck with whatever you decide......
Are you sure the question "who did a Jet EFIS MCC?" was not merely to allow the sim assesment to take allowance?
If candidate A has done his Jet EFIS MCC work then he might well be slightly ahead of the game on a Jet EFIS sim assessment.
It would only be fair to candidate B to allow for this fact and not penalise him.
It is ILLOGICAL for airline recruiters to prefer Jet EFIS MCC candidates. The course is NOT designed as prep for a Jet type rating. It was never INTENDED to act as such. A Jet Orientation Cource IS designed to act as such.
To confuse a JOC with an MCC shows a fundamental misunderstanding on behalf of airline recruiters. So fundamental I doubt they did misunderstand.
WWW
If candidate A has done his Jet EFIS MCC work then he might well be slightly ahead of the game on a Jet EFIS sim assessment.
It would only be fair to candidate B to allow for this fact and not penalise him.
It is ILLOGICAL for airline recruiters to prefer Jet EFIS MCC candidates. The course is NOT designed as prep for a Jet type rating. It was never INTENDED to act as such. A Jet Orientation Cource IS designed to act as such.
To confuse a JOC with an MCC shows a fundamental misunderstanding on behalf of airline recruiters. So fundamental I doubt they did misunderstand.
WWW
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: A PC!
Posts: 594
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WWW remove the blinkers old chap.
Regardless of whether or not it may be illogical, it is what the potential employer wants. If they specify it then they want it and anyone who does not have it is a disadvantage. QED.
As for what the survey says, it says that the airlines want "candiates to have complete a Jet Introduction Course". Now, we all know that this is not an MCC, but is in fact something larger, more comprehensive and more demanding (handling wise) than an MCC.
So, you could do a nice cheap MCC on as turboprop (or upturned orange crate with dials in it) and then find yourself unemployable until you have bought the more expensive JIC as well or you could do a Jet MCC, add some hours to it and get yourself that MCC and JIC in one. I suggest that the latter approach will be better value for money (although you may regard me as biased).
Regardless of whether or not it may be illogical, it is what the potential employer wants. If they specify it then they want it and anyone who does not have it is a disadvantage. QED.
As for what the survey says, it says that the airlines want "candiates to have complete a Jet Introduction Course". Now, we all know that this is not an MCC, but is in fact something larger, more comprehensive and more demanding (handling wise) than an MCC.
So, you could do a nice cheap MCC on as turboprop (or upturned orange crate with dials in it) and then find yourself unemployable until you have bought the more expensive JIC as well or you could do a Jet MCC, add some hours to it and get yourself that MCC and JIC in one. I suggest that the latter approach will be better value for money (although you may regard me as biased).
Last edited by moggie; 24th Jul 2003 at 22:53.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did my MCC on the L1011 sim at EGHH a few years back. Not the cheapest but gave me heavy sim time. It also gave me contacts on the B727 sim in the same building. Both these sims are used for airline interviews. One of which offered me a job.
So I say if you are going to do the MCC pay good money for a good experience. Sod the MCC bulls**t and just lap up the sim time. Excellent fun.
So I say if you are going to do the MCC pay good money for a good experience. Sod the MCC bulls**t and just lap up the sim time. Excellent fun.
Moggie as you sell MCC and JOC courses then you are well informed I am sure.
But calling an MCC, done on something that looks and handles 'a bit' like a jet, a mini JOC course is like saying the IMC is a cheaper IR.
They are designed for completely different purposes whilst bearing certain similarities.
----
The only people who champion the more expensive motion Jet EFIS MCC courses are either the ones who have done them or the the ones who run them.
----
By all means do a JOC course to make yourself more employable.
But do not try to pass off an expensive MCC as, really, a mini JOC course.
'Cause it ain't.
Cheers
WWW
But calling an MCC, done on something that looks and handles 'a bit' like a jet, a mini JOC course is like saying the IMC is a cheaper IR.
They are designed for completely different purposes whilst bearing certain similarities.
----
The only people who champion the more expensive motion Jet EFIS MCC courses are either the ones who have done them or the the ones who run them.
----
By all means do a JOC course to make yourself more employable.
But do not try to pass off an expensive MCC as, really, a mini JOC course.
'Cause it ain't.
Cheers
WWW
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: A PC!
Posts: 594
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WWW - you mis-quote me I'm afraid. I was saying that an MCC plus extra (ideally a Jet Introduction Course) is what the airlines want, according to the GAPAN/EPST survey.
What I did not say is that they want a jet MCC - after all, as the MCC has to be flown on autopilot it gives you no handling experience.
If you are only going to do an MCC - do a cheap one. If you want to improve employment prospects, do a JIC or an MCC on a jet device (which does not handle a bit like a jet - ours handles enough like a jet to qualify as a FFS) AND then do enough extra hours to get your handling up to the standards required by the GAPAN respondants.
Well, that's my opinion, anyway (and it just happens to coincide with those airlines who responded to the GAPAN survey - but what would they know?).
What I did not say is that they want a jet MCC - after all, as the MCC has to be flown on autopilot it gives you no handling experience.
If you are only going to do an MCC - do a cheap one. If you want to improve employment prospects, do a JIC or an MCC on a jet device (which does not handle a bit like a jet - ours handles enough like a jet to qualify as a FFS) AND then do enough extra hours to get your handling up to the standards required by the GAPAN respondants.
Well, that's my opinion, anyway (and it just happens to coincide with those airlines who responded to the GAPAN survey - but what would they know?).
If you are only going to do an MCC - do a cheap one. If you want to improve employment prospects, do a JIC or an MCC on a jet device (which does not handle a bit like a jet - ours handles enough like a jet to qualify as a FFS) AND then do enough extra hours to get your handling up to the standards required by the GAPAN respondants.
Moggie - we are in complete agreement then.
MCC is one thing.
JIC/JOC is another.
As long as that clear I have no quibble whatsover. Its the suggestion that an MCC done on a fancy looking "Jet" sim device is in someway a substitute for a JIC/JOC.
--------
I don't agree with people having to do JOC courses out of their own pocket. Its halfway to paying for your own type rating which I also disagree with.
If Daddys a millionaire or you simply made wise property investments and have the cash - go for broke and do an Integrated CPL/IR MCC JOC and 737 rating.
But for Joe Wannabe - draw the line at the MCC.
Cheers
WWW
Moggie - we are in complete agreement then.
MCC is one thing.
JIC/JOC is another.
As long as that clear I have no quibble whatsover. Its the suggestion that an MCC done on a fancy looking "Jet" sim device is in someway a substitute for a JIC/JOC.
--------
I don't agree with people having to do JOC courses out of their own pocket. Its halfway to paying for your own type rating which I also disagree with.
If Daddys a millionaire or you simply made wise property investments and have the cash - go for broke and do an Integrated CPL/IR MCC JOC and 737 rating.
But for Joe Wannabe - draw the line at the MCC.
Cheers
WWW
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Egcc
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The GAPAN survey makes interesting reading, but, and I think this is the crux of it, it appears to ask what the airlines want not necessarily what they will accept .
The majority of jet operators will take F/Os over the age of 30. (just read the numerous threads on these pages over the years)
They would also like their low hours candidates to have a JOC course before they start with them. Reality is that very few have done one.
They also say they want degree level education. Plenty of them accept pilots with a lot less.
So my advice is, if you are 18-20yrs old considering a flying career take on board all that GAPAN says and you won't go far wrong. If you're older and don't have everything they suggest, don't panic, there is still hope..............................
I would be interested to hear from Morning Glory which airline wants you to have done MCC on a jet sim? I personally can't see the advantage as handling was no part of the course when I did it.....................
I would say do the mcc as cheaply as possible ( because I know of no airline that requires a 'jet' mcc - Morning Glory?) and if you save a grand or so by doing this and you get to sim ride stage with a jet operator, do your homework and rent an hour or two on a similar sim and get some one-on-one handling practice and instruction........worked for me. Alternatively if you are ace to base as a pilot, just pocket the saving and have a holiday!
PP
The majority of jet operators will take F/Os over the age of 30. (just read the numerous threads on these pages over the years)
They would also like their low hours candidates to have a JOC course before they start with them. Reality is that very few have done one.
They also say they want degree level education. Plenty of them accept pilots with a lot less.
So my advice is, if you are 18-20yrs old considering a flying career take on board all that GAPAN says and you won't go far wrong. If you're older and don't have everything they suggest, don't panic, there is still hope..............................
I would be interested to hear from Morning Glory which airline wants you to have done MCC on a jet sim? I personally can't see the advantage as handling was no part of the course when I did it.....................
I would say do the mcc as cheaply as possible ( because I know of no airline that requires a 'jet' mcc - Morning Glory?) and if you save a grand or so by doing this and you get to sim ride stage with a jet operator, do your homework and rent an hour or two on a similar sim and get some one-on-one handling practice and instruction........worked for me. Alternatively if you are ace to base as a pilot, just pocket the saving and have a holiday!
PP
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Notts
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MCC. Where and when?
Just a little question to put out there to all you Ppruners who have had experience of the MCC or are about to undertake this.... Where would you advise to go to do the MCC course?? Parc aviation I hear is good, but I have been training long enough to know that all places have good points and bad points, it is just a question of more plus than minus points.
Another question would be, to apply for positions without the MCC or go and do the MCC first??
So many ideas.... can anybody with experience of this please pass on there wisdom?
Many thanks
sdryh
Another question would be, to apply for positions without the MCC or go and do the MCC first??
So many ideas.... can anybody with experience of this please pass on there wisdom?
Many thanks
sdryh
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UAE
Posts: 662
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did mine at Multiflight at LBA, used the King Air sim, good experienced instructors from a Jet2 base captain to retired captains of other airlines.
Was £1000 if you did the CPL/IR with them but I think it’s going up to £1500 in April? Don't know how much it will be if you are only going to do the MCC, was £2000.
As for when to get it, now, no expiry date but some company’s state you must have one before you apply so go for it?
YYZ
Was £1000 if you did the CPL/IR with them but I think it’s going up to £1500 in April? Don't know how much it will be if you are only going to do the MCC, was £2000.
As for when to get it, now, no expiry date but some company’s state you must have one before you apply so go for it?
YYZ
PPRuNe Secret Agent!
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: West Sussex, UK
Posts: 1,546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would go and get one before applying...I didn't have one when I got the call for a job and had just under 2 weeks notice to complete it before my type-rating started!!!
BCFT managed to sort me out and we had a really good few days on the L10-11 sim...instructor was barking mad but added to the fun!! Not the cheapest though but really enjoyed it..
BCFT managed to sort me out and we had a really good few days on the L10-11 sim...instructor was barking mad but added to the fun!! Not the cheapest though but really enjoyed it..
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: LGW
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I used multiflight at LBA too, very happy with the course. Get it done as soon as possible. I waited and was offered a job and had 2 week also to get it done before my type rating...
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Notts
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks all who replied.. I think I am going to take your advice and get the MCC first before taking the plunge and applying for the first job in the airlines, fingers crossed!!
Where I will do the MCC is still up to debate... I did my PPL with Multiflight many years ago and found them to be great, but I was hoping to do the MCC in a 737 or airbus simulator in order to get a little experience of something that alot of airlines use... I may change my mind on this matter.
Again thanks, if you have any thoughts on which school then your views would be of great help
Many thanks
Sdryh
Where I will do the MCC is still up to debate... I did my PPL with Multiflight many years ago and found them to be great, but I was hoping to do the MCC in a 737 or airbus simulator in order to get a little experience of something that alot of airlines use... I may change my mind on this matter.
Again thanks, if you have any thoughts on which school then your views would be of great help
Many thanks
Sdryh
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Down a Tin mine......
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did mine with BCFT on the L1011 sim at BOH - greattttttttttttttt fun and a great and extreamly experienced sim instructor.
Only let down a couple of days with the Sim beeing unservicable - but that was made up too us with a bit of a refund on the course price and a couple of extre hours in the sim for whenever we want to use them and we also got to go in the 747-200 sim as well.
It prepared me well and was a greatttttttttt experiance for doing my sim course.
brgds
W.G
Only let down a couple of days with the Sim beeing unservicable - but that was made up too us with a bit of a refund on the course price and a couple of extre hours in the sim for whenever we want to use them and we also got to go in the 747-200 sim as well.
It prepared me well and was a greatttttttttt experiance for doing my sim course.
brgds
W.G
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,091
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heard good things about the Parc MCC course. You get some good hands on flying using the type of SIM that many airlines use for their assessments.
I did mine with Jetlinx using BAs 757 full motion simulator at Cranebank. I found the course very helpful, and probably one of the most enjoyable experiences in my flying training career. The MCC really was hugely interesting, and it is a good bridge from the single pilot world we all come from.
I learnt loads, had a good time, and I even got my beer bought for me. What more can you ask for?
I did mine with Jetlinx using BAs 757 full motion simulator at Cranebank. I found the course very helpful, and probably one of the most enjoyable experiences in my flying training career. The MCC really was hugely interesting, and it is a good bridge from the single pilot world we all come from.
I learnt loads, had a good time, and I even got my beer bought for me. What more can you ask for?
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Definitely consider Jetlinx. An excellent course given mainly by current BA flight crew on either the Cranebank (BA) A320 or B757 sims.
I did mine on the A320 and got a good insight into Airbus EFIS....absolutely brilliant!
The downside is the cost, I guess you pay your money and take your choice.
I agree with other posts, many potential employers want to see the MCC box ticked.
I did mine on the A320 and got a good insight into Airbus EFIS....absolutely brilliant!
The downside is the cost, I guess you pay your money and take your choice.
I agree with other posts, many potential employers want to see the MCC box ticked.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flight Centre at Wolverhampton are very good. (www.hgfc.co.uk)
chief mcc instructor is ex-raf and has excellent reputation, other guys who do the MCC are ex-BA training captain and another is current F.O.
believe they are currently doing it for £1950 inc vat.
chief mcc instructor is ex-raf and has excellent reputation, other guys who do the MCC are ex-BA training captain and another is current F.O.
believe they are currently doing it for £1950 inc vat.