Logbook and Logging Hours Questions
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,524
Likes: 1
From: United Kingdom
Baby Hormones - I read your post as saying that you are flying in the right hand seat of a single-pilot aeroplane that is not required by JAR-OPS to be flown multi-pilot. In this case, none of the flying will count towards the requirements for the ATPL, or any other licence or rating come to that. Neither is the flying Dual, unless you are receiving instruction from a FI or CRI, all you are entitled to claim is SNY, which is no use to man nor beast.
Of course, you can put what you like in your logbook but the CAA are red-hot on checking this sort of thing when you apply for a licence or rating and it would be a shame to find yourself being prosecuted for falsification of a legal document.
Of course, you can put what you like in your logbook but the CAA are red-hot on checking this sort of thing when you apply for a licence or rating and it would be a shame to find yourself being prosecuted for falsification of a legal document.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
From: Shropshire and London
Cheers Guys,
The CAA have told me to refer to Lasor, but does not seem to much good.
Billie Bob is that still apply if I am rated on the aircraft. If so i beta get myself to a twin crew op otherwise 10 grand wasted?
cheers
Hormones
The CAA have told me to refer to Lasor, but does not seem to much good.
Billie Bob is that still apply if I am rated on the aircraft. If so i beta get myself to a twin crew op otherwise 10 grand wasted?
cheers
Hormones
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 384
Likes: 0
From: sector 001
In a nutshell - does your operations manuals require two crew when carrying passengers? Speak to your chief pilot for guidance.
If YES - the time counts both for P2 and multi-crew time [500 hours MP required for ATPL issue.]
If NO - unable to log time as P2.
Simple - black and white.
This "hybrid rule" applies to ac under 5.7MT, and affects types like the Otter operating on a JAR AOC.
If YES - the time counts both for P2 and multi-crew time [500 hours MP required for ATPL issue.]
If NO - unable to log time as P2.
Simple - black and white.
This "hybrid rule" applies to ac under 5.7MT, and affects types like the Otter operating on a JAR AOC.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 494
Likes: 4
From: Europe
My logbook looks like a mess!
Hi
I'am planning to convert my license this year (FAA to JAA) and just saw today that my logbook looks like a mess. After 1600 hours I have made a lot of corrections. I'am going to do the checkride in UK. Are they picky about logbooks there?
Also can somebody tell where I can find info regarding how I log my hours according to JAR-FCL.
Must I buy a new logbook and RE-LOG my hours according to JAR-FCL requirements???? (thats gonna be a lot of work)
I'am planning to convert my license this year (FAA to JAA) and just saw today that my logbook looks like a mess. After 1600 hours I have made a lot of corrections. I'am going to do the checkride in UK. Are they picky about logbooks there?
Also can somebody tell where I can find info regarding how I log my hours according to JAR-FCL.
Must I buy a new logbook and RE-LOG my hours according to JAR-FCL requirements???? (thats gonna be a lot of work)
Guest
Posts: n/a
You're not alone! I have numerous corrections too. It seems, the issue of logbooks falls into three camps:
1) Those that make errors and correct them (a mess)
2) Those that make errors and leave them (tut tut
)
3) Those that don't make mistakes (what's the secret?)
1) Those that make errors and correct them (a mess)
2) Those that make errors and leave them (tut tut
)3) Those that don't make mistakes (what's the secret?)
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,045
Likes: 1
From: North of CDG
For what it's worth, my approach is to have 2 logbooks: one as a "draft" logbook, where I do make mistakes when loging right after a flight, the other, the "official" logbook, where I copy what's in the "draft" logbook. OK, that's more expensive, but it cuts down on the mess, and gives me the luxury of having a spare in case I misplace or lose the "official" logbook...
Cheers
Cheers
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
From: northumbria (ideally)
damn i wish id thought of that sneaky two logbook thing... mine is a mess loads of scirbbles...my baby neice even decided to draw on the b ack pages over some carefully written endorsements!!
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
From: Europe
If you're doing the CPL and not ATP you only need to prove that you got 200 h (including some XC etc). So, worst case scenario shouldn't be that bad. After all, it's normally at your own descretion if you want to log your hours or not.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 494
Likes: 4
From: Europe
ok, so I'am not the only one having crappy logbooks. I have a FAA ATPL and also a "golden" stamp from a public notary that my hours are "true". Hope that is evidence enough.
Its funny, when I really concenetrate I try to do my best handwritng in my logbook, it ends up like sh#$@t
I HATE LOGBOOKS.
Its funny, when I really concenetrate I try to do my best handwritng in my logbook, it ends up like sh#$@t
I HATE LOGBOOKS.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 1
From: Egcc
Why not just design a form in Excel or Word which mirrors your log book page? Either make it A4 size (if you have a big knee board) or A5 (sideways, twice on an A4 sheet) to fit a smaller kneeboard. Then all you have to do is put the entries on this sheet each time you go flying (handy thing is it will be on your kneeboard!) and then at your convenience fill in your 'Master' logbook when you are not too tired and sitting at home in the comfort of your living room. Won't stop mistakes, but may help cut them down........
Alternatively, you could do as many professional pilots do and just scribble times on a bit of paper to copy in later on
If you are a member of BALPA (free for trainee members I think), you will receive a Balpa Diary each year. Included in this are several mini logbook pages and that's what I use to log my hours on a daily basis, to transfer to my professional logbook every month or two (an onerous task.........)
Other options are to log them electronically, plenty of packages available on the market for this, then you can let the computer do the brain ache stuff.
PP
ps edited to add; try using the same pen each time to fill in your logbook, looks much neater.
Alternatively, you could do as many professional pilots do and just scribble times on a bit of paper to copy in later on
If you are a member of BALPA (free for trainee members I think), you will receive a Balpa Diary each year. Included in this are several mini logbook pages and that's what I use to log my hours on a daily basis, to transfer to my professional logbook every month or two (an onerous task.........)
Other options are to log them electronically, plenty of packages available on the market for this, then you can let the computer do the brain ache stuff.
PP
ps edited to add; try using the same pen each time to fill in your logbook, looks much neater.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: Baile Atha Cliath
Logging a check out
I hold a PPL but haven't flow in a few months so I will need to do a check out with an instructor. Does anyone know how this should be logged? Is it Pu/t, P.1 or P1/s? I've checked Lasors but can't find anything that specifically covers this.
Thanks,
Sprawler
Thanks,
Sprawler
Beacon Outbound
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 710
Likes: 22
From: "Home is were the answer machine is"
Search the private flying or flying instructors/examiners forum.
This subject has been covered to death lately.
Summary: you cannot use P1/S, only P.u/t
Regards
Gerard
This subject has been covered to death lately.
Summary: you cannot use P1/S, only P.u/t
Regards
Gerard
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 419
Likes: 4
From: Westward TV
Sprawler,
This is indeed a tricky point and does need to be addressed by the CAA. With an instructor onboard, it depends on how you read the regulations.
Argument #1.
The instructor is there to provide instruction to ensure that you can satisfy the club checkout requirements. Hence, you are Pu/t and the FI is P1.
Argument #2.
Legally you are capable of operating that aircraft with or without the instructor present. An instructional flight requires two pilots. One instructor and yourself as the other pilot. Hence you could argue that the instructor is commander and you are captain of this flight. Assuming that the instructor does not have to interfer with the conduct of your flight, you could be said to be PICUS (note: slight difference to P1/s). You are exercising the priviledges of your licence under supervision of the commander.
Personally, unless you really need the P1 time, I would err on the side of caution and log it as Pu/t.
This is indeed a tricky point and does need to be addressed by the CAA. With an instructor onboard, it depends on how you read the regulations.
Argument #1.
The instructor is there to provide instruction to ensure that you can satisfy the club checkout requirements. Hence, you are Pu/t and the FI is P1.
Argument #2.
Legally you are capable of operating that aircraft with or without the instructor present. An instructional flight requires two pilots. One instructor and yourself as the other pilot. Hence you could argue that the instructor is commander and you are captain of this flight. Assuming that the instructor does not have to interfer with the conduct of your flight, you could be said to be PICUS (note: slight difference to P1/s). You are exercising the priviledges of your licence under supervision of the commander.
Personally, unless you really need the P1 time, I would err on the side of caution and log it as Pu/t.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,524
Likes: 1
From: United Kingdom
LASORS describes only two cases where PICUS may be claimed:
Case B - Co-pilot performing duties of PIC under supervision of pilot-in command
Case J - Pilot undergoing any form of flight test with a JAA or CAA authorised examiner
Case B only applies if, among other things, "the flight was conducted in an aircraft having a Certificate of Airworthiness that requires its flight crews to include not less than two pilots" and LASORS further states that Flight time as PICUS, apart from as specifically provided for under Case J above, will only be allowable for the holder of a PPL subject to the terms of a prior agreement with the CAA." so I'm afraid that shoots down Gus Honeybun's Argument #2 (better stick to birthday bunny-hops, Gus)
Since a dual check to satisfy currency requirements, syndicate rules, insurance requirements , etc. is not a flight test and, in any case, the flight is not, we assume, with a CAA or JAA authorised examiner, Case J doesn't apply and Pu/t is the only option.
Of course, you can enter the flight in your logbook as anything you like - that's up to you. The CAA, however, will not accept it as counting towards any required PIC hours for licence or rating issue and so there's not much point.
Case B - Co-pilot performing duties of PIC under supervision of pilot-in command
Case J - Pilot undergoing any form of flight test with a JAA or CAA authorised examiner
Case B only applies if, among other things, "the flight was conducted in an aircraft having a Certificate of Airworthiness that requires its flight crews to include not less than two pilots" and LASORS further states that Flight time as PICUS, apart from as specifically provided for under Case J above, will only be allowable for the holder of a PPL subject to the terms of a prior agreement with the CAA." so I'm afraid that shoots down Gus Honeybun's Argument #2 (better stick to birthday bunny-hops, Gus)
Since a dual check to satisfy currency requirements, syndicate rules, insurance requirements , etc. is not a flight test and, in any case, the flight is not, we assume, with a CAA or JAA authorised examiner, Case J doesn't apply and Pu/t is the only option.
Of course, you can enter the flight in your logbook as anything you like - that's up to you. The CAA, however, will not accept it as counting towards any required PIC hours for licence or rating issue and so there's not much point.