BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
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Sshhhhh
Ok this is getting boring now guys.
Lets see, we have the do gooders and the opportunists.
We can argue who we should be, who we have the right to be, but why?
The system as a whole RELIES on some of us being do gooders AND some being opportunists.
If we were all do gooders, the laws would not protect us from the true minority of criminals, and the government would have no real need to creat complex laws that stop you being exploited by the financial institutes.
If we were all opportunists we would live in a George Orwell BB state, we would be controlled, freedom would be associated with anti-social behaviour.
The 'system' has to have a healthy balance to allow our society to progress, but remain stable. How many millions of jobs/lives are based around fraud prevention and security in financial institutes? lots
We can see that both points are perfectly viable, no-one here is particularly 'wrong' as we know it is never black and white, just be happy knowing you all fit together to make society what it is.
In conclusion, if WWW wants to do his thing, know that it's wrong in the eyes of the law, but know without people pushing the system we stagnate.
Cheers (I need a beer
)
Dave
ps, I should be working....
Lets see, we have the do gooders and the opportunists.
We can argue who we should be, who we have the right to be, but why?
The system as a whole RELIES on some of us being do gooders AND some being opportunists.
If we were all do gooders, the laws would not protect us from the true minority of criminals, and the government would have no real need to creat complex laws that stop you being exploited by the financial institutes.
If we were all opportunists we would live in a George Orwell BB state, we would be controlled, freedom would be associated with anti-social behaviour.
The 'system' has to have a healthy balance to allow our society to progress, but remain stable. How many millions of jobs/lives are based around fraud prevention and security in financial institutes? lots
We can see that both points are perfectly viable, no-one here is particularly 'wrong' as we know it is never black and white, just be happy knowing you all fit together to make society what it is.
In conclusion, if WWW wants to do his thing, know that it's wrong in the eyes of the law, but know without people pushing the system we stagnate.
Cheers (I need a beer
)Dave
ps, I should be working....
Well I do like a heated debate - its been very useful in exploring an issue of great interest to the average young wannabe - thanks for everyones contribution.
Yes it is immoral and it is theft. No argument and no desire to enter into a protracted Moral Maze debate.
But it is very easy to do and very easy to get away with it.
So many will.
Cheers
WWW
Yes it is immoral and it is theft. No argument and no desire to enter into a protracted Moral Maze debate.
But it is very easy to do and very easy to get away with it.
So many will.
Cheers
WWW
Quit Your Jibba Jabba, Fool! As Mr T might say.
My position is clear. The Authorities have made bankruptcy painless and easy. The Financial Service industry have made borrowing £50k for a 22 yr old laughably easy.
The two simply mean that many Wannabes will make the logical decision to follow a planned bankrupcy route. It has been achieved already several times and is being pursued by many.
This means for Joe 'Honest' Wannabe he is now up against people who have free CPL/IRs and can afford a £20k type rating with ease - thus jumping ahead.
So if you chose to be moral and upright you will be crushed in the stampede and left behind to repay your debts whilst never being able to get an airline job because you cannot afford the type rating expense... catch 22.
Vicious nasty greedy dishonest dog-eat-dog world we live in YES. Ability to change it.. NO.
Cheers
WWW
My position is clear. The Authorities have made bankruptcy painless and easy. The Financial Service industry have made borrowing £50k for a 22 yr old laughably easy.
The two simply mean that many Wannabes will make the logical decision to follow a planned bankrupcy route. It has been achieved already several times and is being pursued by many.
This means for Joe 'Honest' Wannabe he is now up against people who have free CPL/IRs and can afford a £20k type rating with ease - thus jumping ahead.
So if you chose to be moral and upright you will be crushed in the stampede and left behind to repay your debts whilst never being able to get an airline job because you cannot afford the type rating expense... catch 22.
Vicious nasty greedy dishonest dog-eat-dog world we live in YES. Ability to change it.. NO.
Cheers
WWW
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As usual the pilots that think outside the box, don't give a ****about
anyone else, will see, over come and will get the jobs.
There are lots of pilots out there who have taken the piss with everyone and anyone. And are quite happy flying the line still taking the piss with everything and anything they can get away with.
Alot of you don't understand that alot of CP's if they found out that you have managed to beat the system would actually be impressed.
As WWW say's it's a dirty industry, there are very few gentlemen these days.
There are more than few pilots out there that live in terror that they will get a tax inspection before the 7 years is up.
anyone else, will see, over come and will get the jobs.
There are lots of pilots out there who have taken the piss with everyone and anyone. And are quite happy flying the line still taking the piss with everything and anything they can get away with.
Alot of you don't understand that alot of CP's if they found out that you have managed to beat the system would actually be impressed.
As WWW say's it's a dirty industry, there are very few gentlemen these days.
There are more than few pilots out there that live in terror that they will get a tax inspection before the 7 years is up.
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WWW would of course claim that this is a responsibility of a different type - to willingly defraud the banks to ensure your future - I cannot see how that squares with theiving the dreams of others through increased rates and refusal to extent loans to other pilots wannabes in the future.
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I guess that if an airline decides to take the easy way out of meetings its liabilities when things get a bit tough and chooses insolvency - maybe leaving a pension fund in deficit or employees with no redundancy pay, the first to complain would likely be the planned bankruptcy lot.
What goes around comes around.
Lucifer, WWW would of course claim that this is a responsibility of a different type - to willingly defraud the banks to ensure your future - I cannot see how that squares with theiving the dreams of others through increased rates and refusal to extent loans to other pilots wannabes in the future.
No I wouldn't claim that. What it is is getting a free CPL/IR via fraud using planned bankruptcy from the outset. I call a spade a flippin shovel me.
As for thieving the dreams of others - that is hyperbole. I don't think a couple of bad debts on unsecured personal finance by a few thousand young pilots is going to really impact on the bottom line of say HSBC's Bad Debt provision. And we are not talking about loans to other pilots in the future as all of this would be unsecured debt lent to a teenager to buy a car, fund his college study, blow on a credit card. The banks wouldn't know nor care where the funds have been spent. Every Wannabe in the land could do it in perpetuity and they would still form a tiny percentage of the number of personal bankruptcy cases filed every year.
The ONLY downside of it happening long term is that the authorities could change the bankruptcy laws in such a way as to allow them to deprive the bankrupt of the privildges and advantages accrued though monies spent on the credit cards in question. That is to say they could take your license off you.
But thats not any where near happening or even thought about.
In the meantime a planned bankruptcy is the perfect crime waiting to happen. And it has. And it will.
Cheers
WWW (someone who slogged and saved and funded his entire training from the age of 17)
No I wouldn't claim that. What it is is getting a free CPL/IR via fraud using planned bankruptcy from the outset. I call a spade a flippin shovel me.
As for thieving the dreams of others - that is hyperbole. I don't think a couple of bad debts on unsecured personal finance by a few thousand young pilots is going to really impact on the bottom line of say HSBC's Bad Debt provision. And we are not talking about loans to other pilots in the future as all of this would be unsecured debt lent to a teenager to buy a car, fund his college study, blow on a credit card. The banks wouldn't know nor care where the funds have been spent. Every Wannabe in the land could do it in perpetuity and they would still form a tiny percentage of the number of personal bankruptcy cases filed every year.
The ONLY downside of it happening long term is that the authorities could change the bankruptcy laws in such a way as to allow them to deprive the bankrupt of the privildges and advantages accrued though monies spent on the credit cards in question. That is to say they could take your license off you.
But thats not any where near happening or even thought about.
In the meantime a planned bankruptcy is the perfect crime waiting to happen. And it has. And it will.
Cheers
WWW (someone who slogged and saved and funded his entire training from the age of 17)
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I don't think a couple of bad debts on unsecured personal finance by a few thousand young pilots is going to really impact on the bottom line of say HSBC's Bad Debt provision.
If only you knew what level of details the banks analyse their risks by market and consumer, you would not only be shocked, but you would also know exactly why virtually no bank lends to pilot trainees any more.
Trust someone who has seen the operations in the background at a level far removed from the high street branch...
So, has anyone declared bankruptcy since the last verbal spat this thread produced? Care to embellish your story, anonymously?
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What if i dont add something on a bankrupcy form???
I am currently starting to process of going bankrupt, I have all my forms from the Courts, but i am just wondering, if i have forgotten about any debts and i dont add them to the form when it goes to court.... what would happen???
Would i still be liable to pay the debt or would i just phone the Insolvency and tell them i have another debt which i didnt add to my form? Any help would be brill.
Thanks, Clair x
Would i still be liable to pay the debt or would i just phone the Insolvency and tell them i have another debt which i didnt add to my form? Any help would be brill.
Thanks, Clair x
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clairnshane,
Hi,
Put every debt on the form "statement of affairs" DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TRY TO CON THE INSOLVENCY SERVICE !! They will go back through all your bank accounts including loans (Banks, Next , Littlewoods, even approach the DVLA to see how many cars you've owned in the past).
Now if you forget about a debt( If that's possible) and tell the OR later ( say a few weeks) they will just add it on.
However, if you ignore a debt, the creditor can demand immediate payment and then force you to go Bankrupt twice! So your Bankruptcy will last upto 8 years or even longer.
Best advice -put everything down on the form. You'll save yourself a lot of hassle.
Hi,
Put every debt on the form "statement of affairs" DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TRY TO CON THE INSOLVENCY SERVICE !! They will go back through all your bank accounts including loans (Banks, Next , Littlewoods, even approach the DVLA to see how many cars you've owned in the past).
Now if you forget about a debt( If that's possible) and tell the OR later ( say a few weeks) they will just add it on.
However, if you ignore a debt, the creditor can demand immediate payment and then force you to go Bankrupt twice! So your Bankruptcy will last upto 8 years or even longer.
Best advice -put everything down on the form. You'll save yourself a lot of hassle.
http://www.creditaction.org.uk/debtstats.htm
Almost 300 people are becoming insolvent each day. The number of UK personal insolvencies continues to increase with 29,804 individuals entering into bankruptcy or an IVA (Individual Voluntary Arrangement) during the final quarter of 2006.
The figures represent an increase of 7.1% on the previous quarter, reaching a total of 107,288 for 2006, up almost 60% from the previous year's figure of 67,584.
=======
Thats an annual increase of 60% in insolvency.
A chunk of which will be IVAs rather than full on bankruptcy.
There is a house price crash under way in the US and its just started in Ireland. With interest rates up 4 times in a year with more to come there will be one here. The stock market is down and looking shaky. Its been 18 years since the 1989 Boom/Bust... ( http://tinyurl.com/ynk7qn )
Meanwhile Iran is months away from getting a nuclear bomb and the US has placed two carrier battle groups in the gulf. Open skies threatens to become a reality creating great upset in the London transatlantic market and today Gordon will probably add more woe to the tax on air travel.
The market for pilots at the moment is very good.
Where we might be a year from now is less certain.
Be careful before taking on massive new debt.
Good luck(!),
WWW
Almost 300 people are becoming insolvent each day. The number of UK personal insolvencies continues to increase with 29,804 individuals entering into bankruptcy or an IVA (Individual Voluntary Arrangement) during the final quarter of 2006.
The figures represent an increase of 7.1% on the previous quarter, reaching a total of 107,288 for 2006, up almost 60% from the previous year's figure of 67,584.
=======
Thats an annual increase of 60% in insolvency.
A chunk of which will be IVAs rather than full on bankruptcy.There is a house price crash under way in the US and its just started in Ireland. With interest rates up 4 times in a year with more to come there will be one here. The stock market is down and looking shaky. Its been 18 years since the 1989 Boom/Bust... ( http://tinyurl.com/ynk7qn )
Meanwhile Iran is months away from getting a nuclear bomb and the US has placed two carrier battle groups in the gulf. Open skies threatens to become a reality creating great upset in the London transatlantic market and today Gordon will probably add more woe to the tax on air travel.
The market for pilots at the moment is very good.
Where we might be a year from now is less certain.
Be careful before taking on massive new debt.
Good luck(!),
WWW
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WWW are you moonlighting as a Daily Mail journalist??....
Irish housing market crashing?? eh??
Stock market crashing??... its only 3% of a 5-6 year high.. crash??
Iran months away from getting a nuclear bomb??
Open skies may hit BA but how is that going to reduce demand for transatlantic travel??
I assume your tongue is firmly placed in your cheek??
Agree you would have to be nuts to get heavily into debt to get your little blue book but please....
Irish housing market crashing?? eh??
Stock market crashing??... its only 3% of a 5-6 year high.. crash??
Iran months away from getting a nuclear bomb??
Open skies may hit BA but how is that going to reduce demand for transatlantic travel??
I assume your tongue is firmly placed in your cheek??
Agree you would have to be nuts to get heavily into debt to get your little blue book but please....
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WWW , I've been a big fan of what you say for a long time, I remember reading your posts pre-flight training, as a flight student and now as a Airline F/O. Pretty much all of what you said turned out to be true. I am a particular fan of your writing style which is why I keep "tabs" on you and the likes of PPRuNe Towers, Scroggs etc.
You really let yourself down with that last post though. Where you are getting a crash/recession in the Irish market from I do not know? Nothing could be further from the truth right now, the pesimists have been saying that in Ireland for years.
I am all for being brutal with wannabees about the risks they face, but that last post was like something straight out of the Sun Newspaper!
You really let yourself down with that last post though. Where you are getting a crash/recession in the Irish market from I do not know? Nothing could be further from the truth right now, the pesimists have been saying that in Ireland for years.
I am all for being brutal with wannabees about the risks they face, but that last post was like something straight out of the Sun Newspaper!
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- can't see anything profoundly wrong with WWW's comments.
There's a lot of significant risks to the world economy building right now - arguably more than has been in the last little while.
There's a lot of significant risks to the world economy building right now - arguably more than has been in the last little while.
I can show you hundreds of houses in the Republic which have had to lower their asking prices just this week. Go take a look at http://www.thepropertypin.com/forum/
House prices are already crashing in the US. Stock markets are lurching all over the place and Mr Greenspan is muttering recession in his retirement.
Open skies may be a good thing, it may be a bad thing but its sure going to be moderate to severe turbulence as it shakes itself out.
As for the Middle East.. well.
We have had 3 or 4 years of good times for Wannabes. Now is a very good time. History teaches us that just as in 1990 and 2001 the times of plenty can suddenly, unexpectedly and viciously become times of famine.
I sincerely hope not. But it is what Wannabe history teaches us.
Cheers
WWW
House prices are already crashing in the US. Stock markets are lurching all over the place and Mr Greenspan is muttering recession in his retirement.
Open skies may be a good thing, it may be a bad thing but its sure going to be moderate to severe turbulence as it shakes itself out.
As for the Middle East.. well.
We have had 3 or 4 years of good times for Wannabes. Now is a very good time. History teaches us that just as in 1990 and 2001 the times of plenty can suddenly, unexpectedly and viciously become times of famine.
I sincerely hope not. But it is what Wannabe history teaches us.
Cheers
WWW
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hsbc have now restricted their prof study loans to 25,000 and only through (i think) cabair and oxford. I also believe that you have to have the loan secured. I had to have mine secured on my parents property. People who simply walk away from all their debt are irresponsible and ultimately selfish. Thats why we are in the situation we are in now. Loans stopping. What happens next is only the ******** with loads of money get to be pilots.
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A global slowdown could be a blessing in disguise. The growth of all the 'nastier' aspects of the aviation industry (paying for TR & line training etc...) is all based on the easy availability of cheap money (low interest rates, sky-rocketing house prices across all industrialized nations, lax regulation).
How you, on an individual level, anticipate & maneuver yourself in preparation for any coming slowdown is the key to survival.
How you, on an individual level, anticipate & maneuver yourself in preparation for any coming slowdown is the key to survival.