BANKRUPTCY!! Pushed to the edge....
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WWW Bit of a difference between a firming up/Soft landing and a apocalyptic crash. Prices are still going up steadily, maybe not reaching the crazy asking prices of the early 2000s. I digress, this is an aviation forum after all!
I do agree that things are as good as they get for wannabees right now, and things seem to go in cycles. I think we are at the top of the sine wave.
I do agree that things are as good as they get for wannabees right now, and things seem to go in cycles. I think we are at the top of the sine wave.
I agree, I think we are at the top of the cycle. Which is why I wanted to point out the danger of taking out massive loans right now.
We will have to wait and see if houses in Ireland will crash. I am certain that they will and there are hundreds of houses currently on the market at seriously reduced asking prices. Something I believe never seen before in the Irish market. I am confident of at least a 20% fall over the next 24 months there. Have you actually seen the sheer numbers of nasty new build apartments around Dublin? Seen the For Sale boards starting to get cobwebs? Spoken to people stuck in long chains that just aren't moving? Its happening - but a lot of people, government and media included, are in denial right now.
Anyone with a passing interest in economics knows there are massive global imbalances, the business cycle is entering the slowdown phase, the US economy faces huge challenges which are here right now and that people in this country are in debt to an extent never before seen.
Not the best time to take out a big loan and ask the parents to remortgage their home perhaps?
But then there are lots of jobs out there and you don't want to miss the boat...
Its not easy being a Wannabe!
Cheers
WWW
We will have to wait and see if houses in Ireland will crash. I am certain that they will and there are hundreds of houses currently on the market at seriously reduced asking prices. Something I believe never seen before in the Irish market. I am confident of at least a 20% fall over the next 24 months there. Have you actually seen the sheer numbers of nasty new build apartments around Dublin? Seen the For Sale boards starting to get cobwebs? Spoken to people stuck in long chains that just aren't moving? Its happening - but a lot of people, government and media included, are in denial right now.
Anyone with a passing interest in economics knows there are massive global imbalances, the business cycle is entering the slowdown phase, the US economy faces huge challenges which are here right now and that people in this country are in debt to an extent never before seen.
Not the best time to take out a big loan and ask the parents to remortgage their home perhaps?
But then there are lots of jobs out there and you don't want to miss the boat...
Its not easy being a Wannabe!
Cheers
WWW
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WWW I think you are spot on in your comments about the cycle and debt but I just thought your comments were slightly less balanced than your usual tone!
Did you know the average house in Dublin costs more than a house in London!.... and the quality of the housing stock is lower. However with the governement SSIA savings schemes maturing over the next couple of months and the average payout being €18,000 consumer spending is unlikely to slow in Ireland.... stamp duty on housing is also THE issue in the upcoming Irish election which is also distorting the housing market at the moment.... but we digress.... this is an aviation forum not housepricecrash.com!
Getting a big big loan to fund your training secured on your parents house seems selfish and crazy to me given the risks involved.... but hey its all about wanting something today without having to go out and put the hours in savings to pay for your training yourself for many people.
Did you know the average house in Dublin costs more than a house in London!.... and the quality of the housing stock is lower. However with the governement SSIA savings schemes maturing over the next couple of months and the average payout being €18,000 consumer spending is unlikely to slow in Ireland.... stamp duty on housing is also THE issue in the upcoming Irish election which is also distorting the housing market at the moment.... but we digress.... this is an aviation forum not housepricecrash.com!
Getting a big big loan to fund your training secured on your parents house seems selfish and crazy to me given the risks involved.... but hey its all about wanting something today without having to go out and put the hours in savings to pay for your training yourself for many people.
Last edited by Grass strip basher; 22nd Mar 2007 at 08:48.
Spot Dublin difference competition:
http://tinyurl.com/ywyk2c
http://tinyurl.com/2bfuzo
I'll tell you - a 30,000 Euro drop in asking price since Christmas. I have 412 other examples I could show you...
As has been said since time began - in this business (being a Wannabe) its all about timing. Get it right and you move smartly into an excellent job and enjoy a smooth start to a long lucrative career. Get it wrong and you spend years of misery and dissapointment before bitterly leaving the profession with nothing but regrets.
The trick, like many things, is timing. And the trick is in no small part otherwise known as luck.
Good luck,
WWW
http://tinyurl.com/ywyk2c
http://tinyurl.com/2bfuzo
I'll tell you - a 30,000 Euro drop in asking price since Christmas. I have 412 other examples I could show you...
As has been said since time began - in this business (being a Wannabe) its all about timing. Get it right and you move smartly into an excellent job and enjoy a smooth start to a long lucrative career. Get it wrong and you spend years of misery and dissapointment before bitterly leaving the profession with nothing but regrets.
The trick, like many things, is timing. And the trick is in no small part otherwise known as luck.
Good luck,
WWW
Well from what I saw of Mr Vegas stumbling drunkenly down the streets of Cheltenham on Gold Cup I shall seek my own counsel on investment strategy!
Property and Stock Markets will not be part of it, thats for sure.
Cheers, WWW
Property and Stock Markets will not be part of it, thats for sure.
Cheers, WWW
My friend. As interest rates climb a large number of people tighten their belts. One of the first and easiest things to cut back on is that weekend in Barcelona, or cut one of the two annual holidays or forget skiing this year or if things are grim then flog the Villa in the sun.
Aviation tends to lead the economy both into and out of recession conditions.
I see an April rate rise in the UK is now a racing certainty..
Cheers
WWW
Aviation tends to lead the economy both into and out of recession conditions.
I see an April rate rise in the UK is now a racing certainty..
Cheers
WWW
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The reason why commercial aviation suffers early in any reduction in economic growth (note: no recession required!) is that it relies totally on discretionary spending by both individuals and companies. Air travel is almost never essential; it is a primarily a luxury. For the same reason, air travel is one of the last things to recover after an economic tightening. Aviation can suffer a recession even when the overall economy - national, regional or global - is still growing fairly healthily. A 5% reduction in passenger traffic is a major disaster for most airlines, which work on margins of 1 or 2% profit - and that's in the good times.
The housing market is a distraction from this discussion and has little directly to do with aviation or training except that most speculative training at the moment is funded by debt secured on property values. No conceivable recession in the UK property market will reduce values to the extent that negative equity becomes a problem for those who have currently 25% or more clear equity in their property. Those of you who have borrowed up to 80% or more of your (or your parents') property's equity to fund flying training are, in my opinion, taking more of a risk than you should. That's your choice. It is certainly not something I would do.
The fate of the 15 Royal Naval personnel in Iran is not of global economic significance. This situation has happened before and will no doubt happen again before we leave that area.
Scroggs
The housing market is a distraction from this discussion and has little directly to do with aviation or training except that most speculative training at the moment is funded by debt secured on property values. No conceivable recession in the UK property market will reduce values to the extent that negative equity becomes a problem for those who have currently 25% or more clear equity in their property. Those of you who have borrowed up to 80% or more of your (or your parents') property's equity to fund flying training are, in my opinion, taking more of a risk than you should. That's your choice. It is certainly not something I would do.
The fate of the 15 Royal Naval personnel in Iran is not of global economic significance. This situation has happened before and will no doubt happen again before we leave that area.
Scroggs
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For those of you who do not believe that your debt history has any effect on employment, I am currently moving roles, and as part of the security checks, this is a cut and paste of the background questions required. Based upon these, they can legally refuse employment.
Bear in mind that the places you have to accept employment without an immediate flying job may require these...
4 Are you, or have you ever been the subject of any civil proceedings, arbitration or litigation, including proceedings that have led, or may lead to a County Court Judgement (CCJ) or other judgement debts, in the United Kingdom or elsewhere? Yes No
5 Are you aware of any intention to begin such proceedings against you in the future? Yes No
6 Do you have any judgement debts (including CCJs) made under a court order still outstanding, whether in full or in part? If you have answered YES, please give details of the dates, initial amount, how much is still outstanding and circumstances involved. If still outstanding, please give details of any Repayment Plan in progress. Yes No
7 Have you ever failed to satisfy any such judgement debts within one year of the making of the order? Yes No
8 Are you, or have you ever been, he subject of any bankruptcy proceedings, or proceedings for the sequestration of your estate? Yes No
9 Have you ever entered into a deed of arrangement or an individual voluntary arrangement (or in Scotland a trust deed) or other agreement in favour of a creditor, or are you in the process of doing so?
Bear in mind that the places you have to accept employment without an immediate flying job may require these...
4 Are you, or have you ever been the subject of any civil proceedings, arbitration or litigation, including proceedings that have led, or may lead to a County Court Judgement (CCJ) or other judgement debts, in the United Kingdom or elsewhere? Yes No
5 Are you aware of any intention to begin such proceedings against you in the future? Yes No
6 Do you have any judgement debts (including CCJs) made under a court order still outstanding, whether in full or in part? If you have answered YES, please give details of the dates, initial amount, how much is still outstanding and circumstances involved. If still outstanding, please give details of any Repayment Plan in progress. Yes No
7 Have you ever failed to satisfy any such judgement debts within one year of the making of the order? Yes No
8 Are you, or have you ever been, he subject of any bankruptcy proceedings, or proceedings for the sequestration of your estate? Yes No
9 Have you ever entered into a deed of arrangement or an individual voluntary arrangement (or in Scotland a trust deed) or other agreement in favour of a creditor, or are you in the process of doing so?
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As a stockbroker i can give you my 2 pence worth. Aviation lags the economy in general. So if your thinking of taking out that loan in the hope of a job , you better hope the economy stays strong.
There are lots of macro economic factors which you have to take into account (it would take a long time to list them all) but by far the biggest factor could be the US .
If the US dollar continues to drop it will effect the entire globe. If people start to liquidate dollar assets quickly we are all screwed.
Having 50k debt before you get a job is a massive commitment. However i can understand why people do it. I now fly a desk and get my aviation kicks through a PPL , if you think a PPL will fore fill your dream then that might be the best bet.
There are lots of macro economic factors which you have to take into account (it would take a long time to list them all) but by far the biggest factor could be the US .
If the US dollar continues to drop it will effect the entire globe. If people start to liquidate dollar assets quickly we are all screwed.
Having 50k debt before you get a job is a massive commitment. However i can understand why people do it. I now fly a desk and get my aviation kicks through a PPL , if you think a PPL will fore fill your dream then that might be the best bet.
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With respect to the above post regarding the questions. legally speaking a IVA is a individual agreement and does not have to be declared to anyone even if they ask it is none of there business. And bankruptcy does not need to be declared once it is removed from your credit file unless there are terms imposed under your judgement.
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With respect to the above post regarding the questions. legally speaking a IVA is a individual agreement and does not have to be declared to anyone even if they ask it is none of there business. And bankruptcy does not need to be declared once it is removed from your credit file unless there are terms imposed under your judgement.
Just as for spent convictions, there are still a numbers of jobs excluded for the general requirements to which you refer.
Bellwether&cloudbuster
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IVA's and Bankrupts are easily searchable here for UK people, so there is no escaping it... 
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/eiir/
Also article today.... Three debt management companies were censured by the advertising watchdog yesterday for making exaggerated claims over the amount customers can write off. The Advertising Standards Authority singled out Accuma, Money Debt & Credit and W3 Debt Solutions for making unsubstantiated claims about the benefits to a consumer of taking out an Individual Voluntary Arrangement, a type of insolvency agreement.
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudicati..._ADJ_42434.htm
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/eiir/
Also article today.... Three debt management companies were censured by the advertising watchdog yesterday for making exaggerated claims over the amount customers can write off. The Advertising Standards Authority singled out Accuma, Money Debt & Credit and W3 Debt Solutions for making unsubstantiated claims about the benefits to a consumer of taking out an Individual Voluntary Arrangement, a type of insolvency agreement.
http://www.asa.org.uk/asa/adjudicati..._ADJ_42434.htm
Last edited by Julian Hensey; 12th Apr 2007 at 14:29. Reason: adding info
I think the killer point is that no airline would dare or care to deny you a job should you be an IVA or Bankrupt.
Its just not a barrier, even if they ask the question in their application form.
Cheers
ANDY
Its just not a barrier, even if they ask the question in their application form.
Cheers
ANDY
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Julien,
Just looked at the Register for Bankruptcies and typed in my own name. A little bit common. Anyway, I was made Bankrupt 14 times throughout England and Wales from 1964 to 2006. Thus, being a Bankrupt even before I was born! I know you can whittle it down by DOB but why bother?
Is it really that important? Do you think HR departments are going to spend hours looking on the Register ?
There's 2 ways to look at it. Irresponsible person ie. couldn't manage his/her finances or Responsible person took the bull by the horns and sorted it out before getting stressed out and messing up on a flight.
Re-Heat, without prejudice but this is a wannabee forum. Want you've typed out is from a generic application form. ie can be used for the Finance director or the cleaner. I have seen dozens of application forms in the last 5 months, only once did it come up. It also said that it wouldn't bar you from Employment as long as you had been discharged for full 3 years. It was for the MOD. So if they're relaxed about it considering all the security implications why can't you?
I'm with WWW, Who Cares?
Just looked at the Register for Bankruptcies and typed in my own name. A little bit common. Anyway, I was made Bankrupt 14 times throughout England and Wales from 1964 to 2006. Thus, being a Bankrupt even before I was born! I know you can whittle it down by DOB but why bother?
Is it really that important? Do you think HR departments are going to spend hours looking on the Register ?
There's 2 ways to look at it. Irresponsible person ie. couldn't manage his/her finances or Responsible person took the bull by the horns and sorted it out before getting stressed out and messing up on a flight.
Re-Heat, without prejudice but this is a wannabee forum. Want you've typed out is from a generic application form. ie can be used for the Finance director or the cleaner. I have seen dozens of application forms in the last 5 months, only once did it come up. It also said that it wouldn't bar you from Employment as long as you had been discharged for full 3 years. It was for the MOD. So if they're relaxed about it considering all the security implications why can't you?
I'm with WWW, Who Cares?
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Sorry Flyboy 1818 I disagree with you over the housing market thing, I think it does have a huge bearing on economy and I think the average £55k borrowing figure is woefully low, I live in an expensive area and I dont know anyone with a mortgage of less than £150k and house prices if anything have slowed down in the last 3 years or so, which means the people who have bought in the last 7 or so years would be affected.
The average unsecured debt sits at about 17k and alot of so called wealth and therefore spending has come from people releasing equity in their homes if the housing market collapses then every thing else will follow.
The average unsecured debt sits at about 17k and alot of so called wealth and therefore spending has come from people releasing equity in their homes if the housing market collapses then every thing else will follow.
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I care, because the cavalier attitudes here could get some people into huge trouble. Wannabes often have to be employed in other fields prior to landing the airline job, and anything that restricts them from doing so, particularly when the economic cycle is largely thought to be peaking, is dangerous.
WWW is correct, yes, that an airline does not care - but people need to give thought about where they will earn the pennies for the months or years prior to landing that airline job.
Orvil, this is not generic at all. As I said, this is what I have completed for a role in an FSA controlled function. While the MoD do not typically require candidates to demonstrate their ability to competently manage money, many other roles do - with the growth of the finance sector, this can only be of more concern to wanabes who have a job in finance on a temporary basis to fund the training or bridge the gap to the job.
It is perfectly clear that this behaviour brought an end to the Career Development Loan system for trainee pilots. I cannot see why people here cannot see clearly that this attitude will further impact the market and raise the finance costs for all wannabes in the future as banks withdraw all funding for wannabes in all instances.
WWW is correct, yes, that an airline does not care - but people need to give thought about where they will earn the pennies for the months or years prior to landing that airline job.
Want you've typed out is from a generic application form. ie can be used for the Finance director or the cleaner. I have seen dozens of application forms in the last 5 months, only once did it come up. It also said that it wouldn't bar you from Employment as long as you had been discharged for full 3 years. It was for the MOD. So if they're relaxed about it considering all the security implications why can't you?
It is perfectly clear that this behaviour brought an end to the Career Development Loan system for trainee pilots. I cannot see why people here cannot see clearly that this attitude will further impact the market and raise the finance costs for all wannabes in the future as banks withdraw all funding for wannabes in all instances.
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I know it's wrong, both morally and legally, but i can understand the logic
in taking out various loans to pay for pilot training then going bankrupt if you had to (especially if young and asset free, as said before).
Firstly, how long would it take a young person to save the massive amount of money involved to pay for a course - not every youngster going down this route is going to land a big salary job from which to save? Secondly, just say it takes around 7-10 years to save up enough (probably living off/with parents during this period), take and complete a course, only to find a long period of low pilot recruitment in the industry or being overlooked in preference to younger (early 20's) graduates of schools who have had the bank of mum and dad on side.
So say (in theory), you are young with no assets and you are absolutely hell-bent on being a pilot and nothing else - CTC, and the other sponsorships have been tried and exhausted with no success. You somehow get the loans together and take an integrated course (somehow making loan repayments as you go), complete it at say 21, and an airline take you on within months (best scenario situation). If you don't get that job, well, i guess, at least you took the risk and tried. On the other-hand, you could, as said before, work in a job you hate for say 7 years, save enough, take and complete the course only to have no success with the airlines - yes, you have have worked hard, done "the right thing" but to no avail.
I guess it's all down to the individual and how far they are prepared to go to exploit the opportunities available to them in becoming an airline pilot.
in taking out various loans to pay for pilot training then going bankrupt if you had to (especially if young and asset free, as said before).
Firstly, how long would it take a young person to save the massive amount of money involved to pay for a course - not every youngster going down this route is going to land a big salary job from which to save? Secondly, just say it takes around 7-10 years to save up enough (probably living off/with parents during this period), take and complete a course, only to find a long period of low pilot recruitment in the industry or being overlooked in preference to younger (early 20's) graduates of schools who have had the bank of mum and dad on side.
So say (in theory), you are young with no assets and you are absolutely hell-bent on being a pilot and nothing else - CTC, and the other sponsorships have been tried and exhausted with no success. You somehow get the loans together and take an integrated course (somehow making loan repayments as you go), complete it at say 21, and an airline take you on within months (best scenario situation). If you don't get that job, well, i guess, at least you took the risk and tried. On the other-hand, you could, as said before, work in a job you hate for say 7 years, save enough, take and complete the course only to have no success with the airlines - yes, you have have worked hard, done "the right thing" but to no avail.
I guess it's all down to the individual and how far they are prepared to go to exploit the opportunities available to them in becoming an airline pilot.