Ability to repay flight training loans?
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I concurr, it's jibberish to think you can go modular for £35000
CPL/ME/IR/MCC/FI + living costs/loss of earnings £49500
All training done in UK including an IMC rating and share in aircraft
Now working as FI and had to relocate so no change from £50000
Will start to panic in spring when repayments start!!
CPL/ME/IR/MCC/FI + living costs/loss of earnings £49500
All training done in UK including an IMC rating and share in aircraft
Now working as FI and had to relocate so no change from £50000
Will start to panic in spring when repayments start!!
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Monthly repayments
How on earth do people manage to repay such huge loans? £500 per month is large ammount on top of rent, and all the other costs.
Instructing certainly won't do it, I worked out that I would only be able to afford about £250 a month on repayments as an instructor.
What sort of debt are people finishing with?
Instructing certainly won't do it, I worked out that I would only be able to afford about £250 a month on repayments as an instructor.
What sort of debt are people finishing with?
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Hi,
I have a loan for 45000 and had worked out, in great detail that that would be enough. However... I seem to have spent far more already than I had plannd on 'life' and all things other than aviation. As I near the part where the big bills come I am begining to get a little uneasy!
I should still have enough but my contingency is already being nibbled away. There are other factors, not finishing exams on time, weather delays etc, all things the contingency was there for, but still
It would have been nice to have ten grand sitting there to help with an FI course or relocation costs should the gods be shining and I get a job!
It aint cheap and unless I get an airline job its back to the old one and joining the ranks of the unemployed pilot. Still, thats all I ever wanted
Regards,
Buster
I have a loan for 45000 and had worked out, in great detail that that would be enough. However... I seem to have spent far more already than I had plannd on 'life' and all things other than aviation. As I near the part where the big bills come I am begining to get a little uneasy!
I should still have enough but my contingency is already being nibbled away. There are other factors, not finishing exams on time, weather delays etc, all things the contingency was there for, but still
It would have been nice to have ten grand sitting there to help with an FI course or relocation costs should the gods be shining and I get a job!
It aint cheap and unless I get an airline job its back to the old one and joining the ranks of the unemployed pilot. Still, thats all I ever wanted
Regards,
Buster
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most people I have met in this industry are in debt and with no flying jobs. Most have taken back their previous job, and are still paying their loan.It can take up to 10 years before to be debt free(and with NO JOB GUARANTY).
you reach 35 years old, you paid all your debts back,...And now airlines ask you if you are ready to retake a loan for a type rating and you have to be not older than 28...(with no job guaranty)
ARE YOU MAD???
the best way is not to invest one peny, and ask airlines to pay you a full intergrated course, but dont put money from your pocket....(job guaranty)
good luck!!!!!
you reach 35 years old, you paid all your debts back,...And now airlines ask you if you are ready to retake a loan for a type rating and you have to be not older than 28...(with no job guaranty)
ARE YOU MAD???
the best way is not to invest one peny, and ask airlines to pay you a full intergrated course, but dont put money from your pocket....(job guaranty)
good luck!!!!!
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how do you guys get these big depts? it's not that expensive even here in sweden!
i live at home and i work at a supermarket at the weekends where i get twice the pay for working weekends and i work as a musician with my cousins where we play at weddings and such and if things go the way i've calculated i won't have a bigger debt then £10-15k when i've got my fATPL! but of course everyone isn't as young as i am that has the ability to live at home (i'm only 17) but i think you should consider working part time and go with cheaper alternatives and try to live at home if possible. It's better to be safe and smart and let things take a little longer instead of going right on with the quickest and most expensive alternative that doesn't allow you to work on the side either!
aspecially when you should keep in mind that you won't have a job until after around 5-10 years after finished fATPL unless very lucky!
i live at home and i work at a supermarket at the weekends where i get twice the pay for working weekends and i work as a musician with my cousins where we play at weddings and such and if things go the way i've calculated i won't have a bigger debt then £10-15k when i've got my fATPL! but of course everyone isn't as young as i am that has the ability to live at home (i'm only 17) but i think you should consider working part time and go with cheaper alternatives and try to live at home if possible. It's better to be safe and smart and let things take a little longer instead of going right on with the quickest and most expensive alternative that doesn't allow you to work on the side either!
aspecially when you should keep in mind that you won't have a job until after around 5-10 years after finished fATPL unless very lucky!
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Wbryce
Sorry it took a while to come back to you with the figures. I have been a bit busy.
I have removed from the spreadsheet all costs arising that fall under the category of ‘loss of income’ and also all the money that I have spent on gliding (I was a member of a gliding club for a year and the spreadsheet records all the money that I spend on flying).
The total cost to date without loss of income is £55,146.48, which to be honest surprised even me. I had no idea that I had factored in that much due to income loss.
Of those costs £41,938.82 are what I consider to be ‘direct costs’ and the remaining £13,207.66 are indirect costs such as travel and accommodation costs, books and equipment, landing fees, CAA charges, stationary and so on.
I completely accept that it is possible to do the course for less, for example savings can of course be made by doing some training in the states. I would have saved a significant sum by doing a ‘three week’ PPL in the US but when I started learning to fly all I could afford was an hour every three weeks and the PPL took me a couple of years to finish. All my flying has been done in the UK. This may not be the cheapest approach but it was the one that fit my circumstances.
A number of people have suggested that I have paid over the odds for some of my training. I do not really believe that this is the case and I think misses the point I was trying to make, which is that the ‘additional costs’ mount up and should be considered by people who are thinking about undertaking the training.
Sorry it took a while to come back to you with the figures. I have been a bit busy.
I have removed from the spreadsheet all costs arising that fall under the category of ‘loss of income’ and also all the money that I have spent on gliding (I was a member of a gliding club for a year and the spreadsheet records all the money that I spend on flying).
The total cost to date without loss of income is £55,146.48, which to be honest surprised even me. I had no idea that I had factored in that much due to income loss.
Of those costs £41,938.82 are what I consider to be ‘direct costs’ and the remaining £13,207.66 are indirect costs such as travel and accommodation costs, books and equipment, landing fees, CAA charges, stationary and so on.
I completely accept that it is possible to do the course for less, for example savings can of course be made by doing some training in the states. I would have saved a significant sum by doing a ‘three week’ PPL in the US but when I started learning to fly all I could afford was an hour every three weeks and the PPL took me a couple of years to finish. All my flying has been done in the UK. This may not be the cheapest approach but it was the one that fit my circumstances.
A number of people have suggested that I have paid over the odds for some of my training. I do not really believe that this is the case and I think misses the point I was trying to make, which is that the ‘additional costs’ mount up and should be considered by people who are thinking about undertaking the training.
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I just found out yesterday that the £25K loan I applied for has been approved. Just waiting for the paperwork to come through.
Bit unsure now it's all getting real. £450/month for the next 10 years is a huge commitment.
I already have my PPL that I obtained in South Africa for £3,300 and will do most of my hour building over there where it is around half the price of the UK.
I will have to keep working to pay off the loan, as there are no deferred payments with an unsecured loan, but £25k is much easier to get in the first place than £40k.
I'll see how far this can get me then revert to the flexible friend to finish the rest.
Bit unsure now it's all getting real. £450/month for the next 10 years is a huge commitment.
I already have my PPL that I obtained in South Africa for £3,300 and will do most of my hour building over there where it is around half the price of the UK.
I will have to keep working to pay off the loan, as there are no deferred payments with an unsecured loan, but £25k is much easier to get in the first place than £40k.
I'll see how far this can get me then revert to the flexible friend to finish the rest.
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Sorry Leezy but £450 per month for ten years sounds like a huge amount of interest... in fact it works out to be £54k you're paying back to the loan company.
I'm looking to obtain a loan for £15k to cover the JAA CPL/IR "conversion", MCC and FI rating (with my own funds topping up the difference and the FI rating will be used only on a part time basis as I can't afford to give up my day job - the loan has to be paid back and I still have to live, anyway this is getting off topic).
I have had a rough estimate from the branch of the building society that I have my current account with that over 5 years this will cost me £300 per month or the more likely option for myself £340 per month to include the loancare cover option. This works out to be a total repayment of £18k or £20k respectively.
Just been looking at their website and the quotation calculator. £25k over 7 years (max) would be £448 including loancare cover, thus a total repayment of £37.5k over the seven years. This seems a much better deal than the same amount over 10 years...
I know your circumstances probably differ to mine like mine do to everyone else's on the planet. However I would suggest that you look around, if you haven't already done so. Sorry and no offence intended but a repayment of £54k for a £25k loan sounds an awful amount to me.
I'm looking to obtain a loan for £15k to cover the JAA CPL/IR "conversion", MCC and FI rating (with my own funds topping up the difference and the FI rating will be used only on a part time basis as I can't afford to give up my day job - the loan has to be paid back and I still have to live, anyway this is getting off topic).
I have had a rough estimate from the branch of the building society that I have my current account with that over 5 years this will cost me £300 per month or the more likely option for myself £340 per month to include the loancare cover option. This works out to be a total repayment of £18k or £20k respectively.
Just been looking at their website and the quotation calculator. £25k over 7 years (max) would be £448 including loancare cover, thus a total repayment of £37.5k over the seven years. This seems a much better deal than the same amount over 10 years...
I know your circumstances probably differ to mine like mine do to everyone else's on the planet. However I would suggest that you look around, if you haven't already done so. Sorry and no offence intended but a repayment of £54k for a £25k loan sounds an awful amount to me.
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Rote8 that sounds about right.
As you say you can do it for less. And you can get it down to 35k if you try. Starting in 2000 and finishing in early 2002 I managed to get MEP/IR/FI all done scraping 35k. Then did the MCC later.
500quid a month sounds about right for the loan repayments for an unsecured loan. If say you start on 18k a year as a TP FO you will clear about 1300 a month. Say 240 a month in rent so before you even start to live its down to 560 disposable. You will need to run a car because public transport doesn't work at O my god its early/late time of day. So call it 100 quid a month fuel and insurance. Down to £460.
Which you can survive on. And normally you will get flight pay on top of that and overnight expenses. So its more likely to be about 600 quid.
It just means for the first 2-3 years you can't afford to buy a house until you get your command.
Persoanlly I wouldn't get a loan for that amount. After you have your bits of paper your looking at 2-3k a year keeping them current. Then if you don't get a job within 6 months your looking at a FI rating or buying a type rating. Which will stick another 15k on for a TP or 25K for a jet. And unless you can continue with your job and pay the loan your knackard.
MJ
As you say you can do it for less. And you can get it down to 35k if you try. Starting in 2000 and finishing in early 2002 I managed to get MEP/IR/FI all done scraping 35k. Then did the MCC later.
500quid a month sounds about right for the loan repayments for an unsecured loan. If say you start on 18k a year as a TP FO you will clear about 1300 a month. Say 240 a month in rent so before you even start to live its down to 560 disposable. You will need to run a car because public transport doesn't work at O my god its early/late time of day. So call it 100 quid a month fuel and insurance. Down to £460.
Which you can survive on. And normally you will get flight pay on top of that and overnight expenses. So its more likely to be about 600 quid.
It just means for the first 2-3 years you can't afford to buy a house until you get your command.
Persoanlly I wouldn't get a loan for that amount. After you have your bits of paper your looking at 2-3k a year keeping them current. Then if you don't get a job within 6 months your looking at a FI rating or buying a type rating. Which will stick another 15k on for a TP or 25K for a jet. And unless you can continue with your job and pay the loan your knackard.
MJ
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Dude~
As you will see from my recent post "Frozen ATPL - the real cost" the cost from zero to 300hr Frozen ATPL with MCC in the UK was just under £40,000.
I had a PPL-Multi and 240 hrs at the start, so no hour building was required, but other than that it is likely to be similar for everyone else.
You can only compare costs if you compare the same course i.e. ZERO (nothing, nada, no hours, zip) to CPL/IR with MCC including accomodation, fees, food etc etc. There's lies, damn lies, and then there's statistics!!!!
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flyingisgr8,
A slight misunderstanding - my fault because the other thread Frozen ATPL - the real cost is not very clear.
To clarify, the point of that thread was to show a breakdown of just the CPL and IR courses, ATPL theory and MCC (no PPL and hour building). That all came to £23830.
Then at the end of my post I said that from zero to Frozen ATPL cost a smidgen under £40,000. That is to say that my PPL-Multi and 240 hrs cost just over £16000.
So just to reiterate, 300 hrs and a Frozen ATPL cost me £40k and that's it. It can be done. Total debt now stands at about £15k.
A slight misunderstanding - my fault because the other thread Frozen ATPL - the real cost is not very clear.
To clarify, the point of that thread was to show a breakdown of just the CPL and IR courses, ATPL theory and MCC (no PPL and hour building). That all came to £23830.
Then at the end of my post I said that from zero to Frozen ATPL cost a smidgen under £40,000. That is to say that my PPL-Multi and 240 hrs cost just over £16000.
So just to reiterate, 300 hrs and a Frozen ATPL cost me £40k and that's it. It can be done. Total debt now stands at about £15k.
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The total cost of my training was £55,000 That included my living expenses a few beers and day to day living over 15 months. I did a modular course and came out at the end with little over 200 hours. I have been very fortunate to get my first job flying 737s..... The airline I work for were more interested in me as person and could I fly the sim, than did I go through a modular / intergrated course. Perhaps for other airlines it is important. I dont see it being an issue and am thankful that there are some airlines out there that dont either. It can and has been done.
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CZ,
Yes you are right, I got my figures a bit wrong, I was just thinking off the top of my head, but when I went back and looked it actually works out around £350/month with the soopa doopa loan protection cover. (It's £100/month cheaper without any cover at all - just shows what they are making from this part alone !!)
My loan is going to be with Northern Rock for those who are interested. I believe they are offering the best APR at the moment and you can repay early too.
Not too worried about a flying job at the end, as I will be keeping my current job so will be able to afford the repayments until I get one - which obviously I hope will be quickly (but hopefully 12 years in the industry already and a few contacts here and there should help)
edit: The £450 was over 8 years not 10, so I'll probably take this option to get it paid off asap.
Yes you are right, I got my figures a bit wrong, I was just thinking off the top of my head, but when I went back and looked it actually works out around £350/month with the soopa doopa loan protection cover. (It's £100/month cheaper without any cover at all - just shows what they are making from this part alone !!)
My loan is going to be with Northern Rock for those who are interested. I believe they are offering the best APR at the moment and you can repay early too.
Not too worried about a flying job at the end, as I will be keeping my current job so will be able to afford the repayments until I get one - which obviously I hope will be quickly (but hopefully 12 years in the industry already and a few contacts here and there should help)
edit: The £450 was over 8 years not 10, so I'll probably take this option to get it paid off asap.
Last edited by Leezyjet; 14th Nov 2005 at 22:17.
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£350/month with the soopa doopa loan protection cover. (It's £100/month cheaper without any cover at all - just shows what they are making from this part alone !!)
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Just use your Google googles, they'll find anything. "Income Protection Insurance" is a start. The general rate seems to be around £2 for every £100/mo, but I'm sure that depends on a number of factors.
You'll also find plenty of links to the FSA and other bodies who have published their concerns about lenders practice of charging extortionate rates!
You'll also find plenty of links to the FSA and other bodies who have published their concerns about lenders practice of charging extortionate rates!
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HWD,
I now owe you 2000 Mongolian Togrogs !!
Just done that google search and can get £1100/month cover for around £45 - much cheaper than the £100 the bank was quoting !! I think I will now be declining the banks cover and take my own seprate cover out instead.
Thanks for pointing that out to me - can save a few more ££'s now to spend on more flying !!.
I now owe you 2000 Mongolian Togrogs !!
Just done that google search and can get £1100/month cover for around £45 - much cheaper than the £100 the bank was quoting !! I think I will now be declining the banks cover and take my own seprate cover out instead.
Thanks for pointing that out to me - can save a few more ££'s now to spend on more flying !!.
