Ability to repay flight training loans?

[lockton9334]

I have been looking into the cost of flight training and it seems to cost £75.000+ (plus type rating) I was wondering how easy current employed or otherwise, FO's (i.e. OAT/ FTE grads) are finding it to pay off this amount of debt (with monthly payments being around £500+) as well as living on the ~£30.000 starting salary?

Thanks for your advice.

Jonathan

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

The prices you quoted seem to indicate you have been looking at the integrated route. Do remember that you will save yourself probably half that if you go down the modular route.

With regard to paying off the loan, I really think it depends on your circumstances. Having a family to support and a mortgage to pay may prove a struggle, however, being a single man/woman without any of those responsibilites wouldn't be so much of a problem. Mind you on saying that, I think I will have to get another job soon to cover my loan .

All the best with what you decide.

I noticed you are learning on the Terrahawk, have you stalled or spun it yet?

[lockton9334]

Those prices where integrated, as this seems the best way to secure a job (however, lets not turn this into a integrated v modular post)

I've done about 38hrs in the PA 38, stalls and spins where...ermmm..."fun" lol :P

Are you thinking about getting another job as your instructing wages are per flight hour rather than a basic airline salary?

[YYZ]

If you can get a job once finished

Or you could be on a TP earning 18K whilst paying for the type rating & having to relocate!

I have recently finished all my training and I am searching for any job at the minute, as the debts need paying! I can manage about another month before I have a problem!

So anyone out there with a job in aviation, preferably flying, PM me

YYZ

[wbryce]

Jonathan,

With a bit of thought you can bring down the amount of money you need to borrow dramatically!

For example, presently i'm working full time, have my PPL and 80hrs TT and currently doing my IMC rating. I'm using my monthly wages to pay me upto 150hours TT and save enough cash to complete my ATPLs and will try and do this too for my CPL! so when the times comes i only really need a loan for my IR and MCC! which lets say 15k max! or 20k with FI rating!

Do a few extra months saving and you further reduce the amount of money you need to borrow! my game plan is to try and reduce any financial burden upon training completion!

wbryce.co.uk

[Rote 8]

There seems to be a longstanding myth on this forum that a modular CPL/IR can be obtained for around the £35,000 mark.

I took my first flying lesson in June 1998 and have maintained a spreadsheet of the costs from that date.

The spreadsheet covers every penny spent on flying and any ancillary costs right down to the stationary that I brought for my ATPL groundschool and also lost earnings for periods when I took unpaid leave from work. (Yes I am anally retentive).

I completed my IR last August and renewed in the sim this year. I have also done an MCC course, nothing glamorous mind, just the King Air sim at Atlantic. I have gone over the minimum hours for PPL, CPL and IR but not unusually so, only a couple of extra hours on the CPL course and the IR.

The spreadsheet really does include every penny that I have spent on this ludicrous mission since that date.

At the moment the total figure is a little way north of £69,000.

Of course it is a complete myth that an Integrated course can be completed for around the £75,000 mark, particularly if you have to give up a full time job in order to complete the course.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Lockton, yes you are absolutely right, and now with the winter approaching, it will prove difficult, but hey ho I will use the force .

WB, has a point. Remember, that depending on your age, you do have time to save some cash, this is what I did. I managed to save around 3/4 of what I needed. Even though I do owe a fair amount of cash, it is not £75K! It is manageable.

Rote 8, that is interesting, and £69K seems like an awful lot of cash! I did a similar thing, with regard to a spreadsheet. I didn't get much change out of £50K which included a FI rating and beer (but not loose women ), however, I did do my PPL and hour building in the USA. I think if you are shrewd with your money you can get away with around the £35K - £40K mark, but bloody hell, we have to eat!

Cheers.

[wbryce]

Rote 8,

I know numerous people who have completed the modular route between 35k and 40k!

Just because you have paid 70k to complete your training by modular courses doesn't mean everyone else will be paying this price!

I estimate to have spent around 12k by the time I have 150 hours! call it 6k for my ATPLs (generous amount, incl accomo and an additional percentage to cover any unknown factors), 6k for CPL! 3K for MCC and an overly generous 15k for IR! even splashing out on a type rating and FI rating, I would still probably be under 70k!

I purchased a share in an aircraft for my hour building! and get my flying hours at basicially half price to club aircraft hire costs! at the end of my hour building, I resell my share and get my money back! A route I would recommend to anyone! Although, do your research, joining a group with a low fund can sting you badly should the unthinkable happen!


wbryce.co.uk

[YYZ]

Multi CPL/IR & MCC cost me £27.100
Hour building £5000
PPL £5500
ATPL,s £3000
Medical £600 total so far

All include VAT, landing, approach, one re-take and issue fee's.

Its the loss of earnings thats a killer!


YYZ

[silverknapper]

You don't earn on either integrated or modular. What a ridiculous cost to factor in. It changes for everyone. If you earned £100k a year you going to tell everyone your fATPL cost £135k?

[YYZ]

I didn't factor in the loss of earnings; I just said it was a killer?

Also, I was Modular, so the loss of earnings cost was minimal; you still need to consider it though?

YYZ

[wbryce]

YYZ,

I think Silver was referring to this comment:

The spreadsheet covers every penny spent on flying and any ancillary costs right down to the stationary that I brought for my ATPL groundschool and also lost earnings for periods when I took unpaid leave from work. (Yes I am anally retentive).

[silverknapper]

Cheers WB, thats what I meant. I know it's a killer but you can't include it in the cost of any course. To insinuate that a modular course cost £69k is ludicrous. Rote 8 obviously was on £30k a year before he left, allowing for a few extra hours.
Why not start a new thread - what our course cost - including lost earnings. Could be interesting!! Bet there are a few high flyers (no pun intended) who packed in 6 figure salaries to learn to fly. Couple that with an APP course and we could be looking at £200k to learn to fly.
Ouch!!!

[Rote 8]

Silverknapper

It is precisely because you don’t earn whilst training that this is a cost that I have factored in. If someone is earning £100,000 a year and they take a 12 month unpaid sabbatical from that job in order to do a modular fATPL then yes, surely the fATPL has cost them £100,000 plus the cost of the training and other expenses. It is money that they sacrificed in order to complete the training and they could reasonably argue that for them, given their circumstances the fATPL did cost them £135,000.

I did not suggest that they end up paying any more for the training, just making the observation that people should look further than just adding the headline cost of a PPL, CPL, Multi and IR together.

Reading between the lines I believe you have made an assumption that I jacked in my job in order to complete the training and simply added a years salary to a base cost of somewhere near to £35,000. This is not the case. I have remained in full time employment throughout the entire course and I am still in the same job now. I have taken two periods of unpaid leave, one in the summer of 2003 to do some hour building and the CPL and another in 2004 in order to do the Multi and IR. When all is said and done the “lost income” portion of the spreadsheet whilst not to be sniffed at is not significantly more than the amount of money I have paid out to the CAA in ‘Administrative Fees’ – (my contribution to the subsidised canteen).

The point I was trying to make is that there are a mountain of other incidental costs to consider when calculating the cost of completing this training and that people ignore these at their peril.

Cheers

[wbryce]

Not many people use that assumption when calculating total expense.

Using that assumption then the average university student debt figures would increase rapidly too as each student wont be in full time employment over their education period, therefor loosing 4 years salary and at an average of say 20k per year, that means going to university would cost 100k (assuming an average of 20k debt from university)!

Give me a fATPL at 70k please!

Rote 8, out of curiousity how much did you pay for your training without adding your loss of income?

[jetay1]

I think that lost salary is a factor in the calculation only if you are initially comparing the profitability of getting a license to other options, like staying in your current job and burying your dreams about a pilot career. I think that most that participate in this thread have already made that decision and are only interested in the actual costs and how to minize them. If you have already decided to get that license, the income during training is lost no matter what and can be eliminated from the calculation.

[Rote 8]

Wbryce

I would have to breakdown the figures within the spreadsheet but I could come up with a very precise figure.

I should add that the spreadsheet covers all flying costs to date. I finished my IR in August 2004 and since then have obviously spent more on an MCC, IR Renewal and the flying that I have done since then – which unfortunately is nowhere near enough to make me attractive to employers and is barely maintaining club currency.

I will try and get you the figures next week.

Jetay1

You could eliminate the costs from your calculation but this will not eliminate the costs from reality.

You will still need to eat and pay the mortgage or rent during training.

[ACN_Pilot]

Multi CPL/IR & MCC cost me £27.100

YYZ I'd be very interested to know how the above courses could amount to 27,000 pounds.

Cheers
ACN_Pilot

[Dude~]

Rote 8,

As you will see from my recent post "Frozen ATPL - the real cost" the cost from zero to 300hr Frozen ATPL with MCC in the UK was just under £40,000.

That includes everything. It can be done.

You need to continually search out cheap flying and cut costs. Of course, if you pay £100/hr to hour build it may cost a lot more.

[EGCC4284]

Those prices where integrated, as this seems the best way to secure a job????????