University or CPL?
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University or CPL?
Hello,
I'm at the stage where it's time to decide what I do post A-level. I've always wanted to fly commercially, and I'm currently gaining my PPL. University has always been the main option, and what I would be expecting to do. Now with the new fees involved I'm going to end up in £20,000 + of debt.
Now this got me thinking, why do this when I could pay for a CPL, MMC, ME, IR for around the same amount (with careful chosing of schools). The school I'm quuoting the price from is Oxford aviation training, and costs £22,595.
So I need to ask what would you do? My aim is to fly as a career. Obviously you need the fATPL for fly for an airliner, but what extra is needed on top of the CPL, MMC, ME and IR to get that? Until now I've never thought along these lines and it's another option to think very carefully about.
Also, once I have my CPL, IR, ME and MMC what can I do that? Or is this the fATPL? I'm very confused with the differences. But with the CPL what can I actually do - pleasure flights...?
Thanks for any feedback or advice.
JW.
I'm at the stage where it's time to decide what I do post A-level. I've always wanted to fly commercially, and I'm currently gaining my PPL. University has always been the main option, and what I would be expecting to do. Now with the new fees involved I'm going to end up in £20,000 + of debt.
Now this got me thinking, why do this when I could pay for a CPL, MMC, ME, IR for around the same amount (with careful chosing of schools). The school I'm quuoting the price from is Oxford aviation training, and costs £22,595.
So I need to ask what would you do? My aim is to fly as a career. Obviously you need the fATPL for fly for an airliner, but what extra is needed on top of the CPL, MMC, ME and IR to get that? Until now I've never thought along these lines and it's another option to think very carefully about.
Also, once I have my CPL, IR, ME and MMC what can I do that? Or is this the fATPL? I'm very confused with the differences. But with the CPL what can I actually do - pleasure flights...?
Thanks for any feedback or advice.
JW.
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I've just finished university and would strongly recomend it although i understand getting on with your training may be more cost effective.
Don't rule out instructing once you have you're CPL either. A great way to gain hours and experience. Once you have an MEP IR and 750 hours air taxi may become an option.
Best of luck.
Don't rule out instructing once you have you're CPL either. A great way to gain hours and experience. Once you have an MEP IR and 750 hours air taxi may become an option.
Best of luck.
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Hi,
Thanks for the reference thread - very informative. Thats answered my question about fATPL differences to CPL/ME etc.
I've still got a massive, and tough choice to try and make. As FBP said, university is something not to be missed. Almost everyone I've spoken to told me to do it. My aim was to go through university, get my PPL and try and get a sponsership. But with the severe lack of them at the moment, I'm having to think elsewhere.
Do you need the CPL to get the FI? I have thought about doing this, as an hour builder. It's very tough though, I'm tempted to go for the training and effectively skip university but I don't want to be in the position of having my CPL or fATPL and no job at the end of it. There doesn't seem to be many jobs which one can do without the ATPL.
Anyone care to offer any advice?
The other thing is the money. With university I'd be using a student loan, to be paid back when I'm actually earning a wage. I don't know of anything which would loan me the money for flight training. Very difficult subject.
Cheers,
JW.
Thanks for the reference thread - very informative. Thats answered my question about fATPL differences to CPL/ME etc.
I've still got a massive, and tough choice to try and make. As FBP said, university is something not to be missed. Almost everyone I've spoken to told me to do it. My aim was to go through university, get my PPL and try and get a sponsership. But with the severe lack of them at the moment, I'm having to think elsewhere.
Do you need the CPL to get the FI? I have thought about doing this, as an hour builder. It's very tough though, I'm tempted to go for the training and effectively skip university but I don't want to be in the position of having my CPL or fATPL and no job at the end of it. There doesn't seem to be many jobs which one can do without the ATPL.
Anyone care to offer any advice?
The other thing is the money. With university I'd be using a student loan, to be paid back when I'm actually earning a wage. I don't know of anything which would loan me the money for flight training. Very difficult subject.
Cheers,
JW.
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If you haven't got too far into your PPL you maybe insterested in a course at the University of Leeds, Aviation Technology. The university will pay for about one third of your PPL and you do it whilst at uni. You also study some ATPL style subjects. If you want more info PM me or look at www.leeds.ac.uk.
You do need a CPL to get an FI but it's well worth thinking about. Money dependent as it may be have you looked at an APP with OAT or FTE?
Also, not for everyone i realise, but have you considered the best flying school in the world? The RAF? Get Liz to pay for it all!
You do need a CPL to get an FI but it's well worth thinking about. Money dependent as it may be have you looked at an APP with OAT or FTE?
Also, not for everyone i realise, but have you considered the best flying school in the world? The RAF? Get Liz to pay for it all!
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I'm only 8 hours into the PPL, but I've decided to continue it. However, my first choice at university is the sister subject of the one you mentioned. Cheers.
And I have thought of the RAF, and will be going for it. However, my local RAF careers advice basically told me not to bother, because I had asthma as a child. I was rather gutted.
To be honest I just want to go and get my CPL/ME/all the others I mentioned for £22,595! And then perhaps get my FI to earn a bit cash, and build some vital hours. Its very risky though....
Cheers,
JW.
And I have thought of the RAF, and will be going for it. However, my local RAF careers advice basically told me not to bother, because I had asthma as a child. I was rather gutted.
To be honest I just want to go and get my CPL/ME/all the others I mentioned for £22,595! And then perhaps get my FI to earn a bit cash, and build some vital hours. Its very risky though....
Cheers,
JW.
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Getting your frozen ATPL will cost a LOT more than £22,595! Once you have your PPL you will have to complete the ATPL exams and do some hour building. You need 150hrs total and a night rating before you can start CPL/IR training. Add to this the cost of living whilst you complete your training and you're looking at least £35,000-£40,000 if you pass everything first time.
I'd never flown in any capacity until I got to university. I did a degree completely unrelated to aviation (biology) and when I realised I wanted to fly for a living I thought long and hard about giving it up to start training. In the end, I decided to apply myself fully to my studies and leave the flying for a couple of years. That proved to one of best decisions I ever made.
The university experience helped me get through my ATPL exams and flight training, and at the interviews I've had so far all the recruiters seemed impressed that I'd stuck at my course and come out with a good degree. You need something extra in this industry!
Hope that helps
Al
I'd never flown in any capacity until I got to university. I did a degree completely unrelated to aviation (biology) and when I realised I wanted to fly for a living I thought long and hard about giving it up to start training. In the end, I decided to apply myself fully to my studies and leave the flying for a couple of years. That proved to one of best decisions I ever made.
The university experience helped me get through my ATPL exams and flight training, and at the interviews I've had so far all the recruiters seemed impressed that I'd stuck at my course and come out with a good degree. You need something extra in this industry!
Hope that helps
Al
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Ah, I didn't realise you needed 150 hours to be allowed to do the CPL. So if I were to pay for the CPL, IR and MCC, I would first need 150 hours in my log book? Plus the night rating. I assume there aren't any minimum hours required to get the multi engline. Perhaps the school can arrange itit so the 150 hours is done before you move onto the CPL.
Theres another school offering the full JAA fATPL for £28,968 inc. accommodation. And the theory is about £4000? I guess I'd have to be very careful in deciding. My main problem is, I could go to university, end up with £20000 debts (or more). Then I need to to train for commercial flying which I either have to pay for. If I'm lucky enough to get a sponserhip it'll not be too bad though. If I were to simply get my CPL (and perhaps IR), what work could I expect to do?
Thanks,
JW.
Theres another school offering the full JAA fATPL for £28,968 inc. accommodation. And the theory is about £4000? I guess I'd have to be very careful in deciding. My main problem is, I could go to university, end up with £20000 debts (or more). Then I need to to train for commercial flying which I either have to pay for. If I'm lucky enough to get a sponserhip it'll not be too bad though. If I were to simply get my CPL (and perhaps IR), what work could I expect to do?
Thanks,
JW.
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If you are only going to complete a degree to...
A) look good an a CV and
B) become more attractive to an airline employer
...then don't bother. Start flying as soon as possible because you will need all the money you can get to repay all your forthcoming training bills.
It currently seems, (much to my despair,) that all you have to do is be rich enough to pay for a Type Rating after your CPL/IR?MCC...
It is becoming more and more irrelevant what you did in a previous life which is so so wrong IMHO.
A) look good an a CV and
B) become more attractive to an airline employer
...then don't bother. Start flying as soon as possible because you will need all the money you can get to repay all your forthcoming training bills.
It currently seems, (much to my despair,) that all you have to do is be rich enough to pay for a Type Rating after your CPL/IR?MCC...
It is becoming more and more irrelevant what you did in a previous life which is so so wrong IMHO.
Last edited by Craggenmore; 30th Jul 2005 at 16:10.
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to start your multi engine training you need to have 70 hours PIC. most people rack this kind of experience up at around 100-120 hour mark, so it could be used to help hour build. having said that, it is a big step up in power/performance/speed and don't expect it to be a doodle. personally, i think the multi rating should be attempted once you are familiar with complex singles (ie wobbly prop and dangly wheels).
all the prices you quoted are minimums. most people are not perfect and take more time than the bare minimum. factor in a contingency into your budget of about 20-30%. also, you have to also include the caa fees. believe me, these are quite steep. last time i looked, it was £607 to sit a cpl, £607 to sit an IR. plus to have you licence issued costs somewhere around about the 300 quid mark. the atpl exams cost £52 each, and there are 14 of them. in all you normally shell out over £2000 to the caa through your training.
working with just a plain cpl limits you to aerial work like photography, banner towing, parachute bombing. these jobs are like hens teeth so most people bite the bullet and get an flight instructors rating (circa £6000). this doesn't pay very well, but if you can live on baked beans then it is a very good way of building experience and getting into the industry.
i am not trying to put you off, but there are many pitfalls and hidden extras in this industry that people tend to overlook when deciding on a budget.
all the prices you quoted are minimums. most people are not perfect and take more time than the bare minimum. factor in a contingency into your budget of about 20-30%. also, you have to also include the caa fees. believe me, these are quite steep. last time i looked, it was £607 to sit a cpl, £607 to sit an IR. plus to have you licence issued costs somewhere around about the 300 quid mark. the atpl exams cost £52 each, and there are 14 of them. in all you normally shell out over £2000 to the caa through your training.
working with just a plain cpl limits you to aerial work like photography, banner towing, parachute bombing. these jobs are like hens teeth so most people bite the bullet and get an flight instructors rating (circa £6000). this doesn't pay very well, but if you can live on baked beans then it is a very good way of building experience and getting into the industry.
i am not trying to put you off, but there are many pitfalls and hidden extras in this industry that people tend to overlook when deciding on a budget.
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Sorry if my post was misunderstood - I wasn't suggesting that anyone should do a degree as well as a frozen ATPL just for CV brownie points!
What I was trying to say was that if the only thing stopping you from going to university is the thought that you can get an fATPL for the same money (and you definately can't) then you need to consider things more carefully.
University is a fantastic experience which opens up many doors and teaches you things which are useful in all walks of life. If you have the opportunity to go it's not something I would give up lightly. I did both, I'm now 22 with 620hrs and £55,000 of debt. Believe it or not, I don't feel that I've lost out in terms of time or money!
That's only my opinion though!
Al
What I was trying to say was that if the only thing stopping you from going to university is the thought that you can get an fATPL for the same money (and you definately can't) then you need to consider things more carefully.
University is a fantastic experience which opens up many doors and teaches you things which are useful in all walks of life. If you have the opportunity to go it's not something I would give up lightly. I did both, I'm now 22 with 620hrs and £55,000 of debt. Believe it or not, I don't feel that I've lost out in terms of time or money!
That's only my opinion though!
Al
Last edited by ATP_Al; 30th Jul 2005 at 17:21.
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Point taken regarding minimum costs. After a small amount of thought I've come to the early conclusion that it's out of reach, so my plan:
- Complete A-levels to the best of my ability.
- Enjoy my PPL training.
- Apply for my chosen university courses.
- Carry on enjoying whatever flying I can get my hands on.
- As well as applying to university, apply to CTC and any other sponserships going.
- Try for the RAF and navy (even though the asthma is likely to get me turned away straight away).
If I go the university route it's likely that I'll be taking a year out in the business (as part of the course), good opportunity to make money and network. Once I've finished I'll take it from there. Trying and trying until I get it! If need be get another job, and pay for training with money I save.
Of course if somehow I manage to get a sponsership, or into the RAF university will not be an option, and I will fly.
Thanks for all the information, it's been mst useful!
Cheers all,
JW.
Al - its likely I\'ll be in your position in 5 years. As long as I end up where I\'m hoping to, I\'ll be happy. The 55K will just mean I live a more basic life for a while!
JW.
- Complete A-levels to the best of my ability.
- Enjoy my PPL training.
- Apply for my chosen university courses.
- Carry on enjoying whatever flying I can get my hands on.
- As well as applying to university, apply to CTC and any other sponserships going.
- Try for the RAF and navy (even though the asthma is likely to get me turned away straight away).
If I go the university route it's likely that I'll be taking a year out in the business (as part of the course), good opportunity to make money and network. Once I've finished I'll take it from there. Trying and trying until I get it! If need be get another job, and pay for training with money I save.
Of course if somehow I manage to get a sponsership, or into the RAF university will not be an option, and I will fly.
Thanks for all the information, it's been mst useful!
Cheers all,
JW.
Al - its likely I\'ll be in your position in 5 years. As long as I end up where I\'m hoping to, I\'ll be happy. The 55K will just mean I live a more basic life for a while!
JW.
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Moan!
Just a little comment ... I'm at uni and I hate it, flying is the only thing that makes life bearable!! Personally I'd say stick to flying. If I could decide again I'd pursue a career in aviation post college. I can't wait to pursue my career!
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i`m about to enter my final year at Leeds and have enjoyed it immensely.
Ok there are a couple of dodgy modules but if you work hard should be ok!
Still not finished my PPL yet due to weather but i`m almost there!!
Any question pm me or leave me a message on here.
I know a couple of the other guys use pprune and will give you some advice also
Ok there are a couple of dodgy modules but if you work hard should be ok!
Still not finished my PPL yet due to weather but i`m almost there!!
Any question pm me or leave me a message on here.
I know a couple of the other guys use pprune and will give you some advice also
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As people have already stated you aren't gonna see a lot of change out of 50k whatever way you do your training.
Sponsorship is a great option but you must realise "sponsorship" is not what it once was. Every scheme i currently know about you have to find the money yourself. For CTC you need to get 60K, for Thompsonfly you need 62k to go to Jerez, same for BA CityExpress. Not forgetting our lovely friends at HSBC no longer lend more than 25k unless you do an APP at OAT. So you need to find 25k yourself.
Sponsorship is a great option but you must realise "sponsorship" is not what it once was. Every scheme i currently know about you have to find the money yourself. For CTC you need to get 60K, for Thompsonfly you need 62k to go to Jerez, same for BA CityExpress. Not forgetting our lovely friends at HSBC no longer lend more than 25k unless you do an APP at OAT. So you need to find 25k yourself.
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Two thoughts.
First, you can go to university any time in your life, so don't get locked into the mindset that you can only do it now. If you really want to fly for a living, and money is your problem then sort that out first. Graduates only earn about 10-20% more than non-graduates in the early years at most, so add that to the debt and you can see that it will take you much longer to accumulate capital via the university route. Realistically you're going to have to borrow if you're going to do this, so the sooner you can establish your borrowing credentials (ie job, salary, low debt), the better.
I don't want to appear anti-university though, and especially if you do an aviation related degree, I'm sure you may be able to get the best of both worlds. If you do go to university, don't forget about the wonderful University Air Squadrons. It's one of my great regrets in life that no-one ever told me about these.
Best of luck, whatever you decide to do.
First, you can go to university any time in your life, so don't get locked into the mindset that you can only do it now. If you really want to fly for a living, and money is your problem then sort that out first. Graduates only earn about 10-20% more than non-graduates in the early years at most, so add that to the debt and you can see that it will take you much longer to accumulate capital via the university route. Realistically you're going to have to borrow if you're going to do this, so the sooner you can establish your borrowing credentials (ie job, salary, low debt), the better.
I don't want to appear anti-university though, and especially if you do an aviation related degree, I'm sure you may be able to get the best of both worlds. If you do go to university, don't forget about the wonderful University Air Squadrons. It's one of my great regrets in life that no-one ever told me about these.
Best of luck, whatever you decide to do.
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I got my degree when I was 21, went into an industry totally unrelated to aviation - made my pennies, and now at 28 am pretty much ready for an aviation job... I reckon my training cost the bare minimum which was the fewest hours required, no fails, and modular. I reckon it was a smidge under £30k all in.
I guess my point is that I certainly don't regret my university years even though the degree wasn't much use after I left though it probably helped me a wee bit with my ATPL studies. Having some cash from another industry has also taken away a large chunk of the burden of aviation - the cost. At 28 I haven't exactly missed the boat either.
As for finding the funds... this is a much discussed topic round these parts and certainly not easy.
Good luck with whatever you decide and feel free to PM me if you want specifics!
METAR
(It's all about the now)
I guess my point is that I certainly don't regret my university years even though the degree wasn't much use after I left though it probably helped me a wee bit with my ATPL studies. Having some cash from another industry has also taken away a large chunk of the burden of aviation - the cost. At 28 I haven't exactly missed the boat either.
As for finding the funds... this is a much discussed topic round these parts and certainly not easy.
Good luck with whatever you decide and feel free to PM me if you want specifics!
METAR
(It's all about the now)
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Hi all,
Thanks for the posts and advice. It's likely that (unless I win the lottery soon) I'm going to go the university route. However, I'd apply for these 'sponserships' which is at least slightly safer than getting a loan yourself, and doing everything independantly. With university I hope to take the 'aviation technology and management studies' because it actually interests me! The reason for doing management part, rather than pilots studies is beacuse I'm doing the PPL myself anyway.
During this degree, I plan on taking one year in the industry, of paid work. A chance to save a little money, as well as hopefully make an impression and try for a ground based job after the degree. If so, raise some more money, save and save and then pay for all the training. It's going to be rather tough but it has to be done!
Thanks for all the comments and advice, much appreciated!
For anybody doing aviation technology, at Leeds - how much physics is involved? Just asking as physics (even though I did it at AS) isn't my strongest subject, and wouldn't like to think the course revolves around it!
Cheers,
JW.
Thanks for the posts and advice. It's likely that (unless I win the lottery soon) I'm going to go the university route. However, I'd apply for these 'sponserships' which is at least slightly safer than getting a loan yourself, and doing everything independantly. With university I hope to take the 'aviation technology and management studies' because it actually interests me! The reason for doing management part, rather than pilots studies is beacuse I'm doing the PPL myself anyway.
During this degree, I plan on taking one year in the industry, of paid work. A chance to save a little money, as well as hopefully make an impression and try for a ground based job after the degree. If so, raise some more money, save and save and then pay for all the training. It's going to be rather tough but it has to be done!
Thanks for all the comments and advice, much appreciated!
For anybody doing aviation technology, at Leeds - how much physics is involved? Just asking as physics (even though I did it at AS) isn't my strongest subject, and wouldn't like to think the course revolves around it!
Cheers,
JW.