Education: What A Levels and Degree (if any)?!(Apr '09)

[Peelay]

Originally Posted by Sagey

why not sign up with the University Air Squadron
S

just what i wish i had done.

[Lucifer]

Originally Posted by mgsucks

Hi, basically im 18, in was at uni doing a business management degree but it wasnt for me. Im not working taking a gap year and will be applying thru ucas very soon for a new degree. The problem is i have no ide what i want to do. I am interested in flying but i dont know if it will last forever.

So basically what degrees are good at university to get a foothold in the raf or sponsorship etc?

thanks

Don't bother going back and wasting your time if you can't stick out business management. If you have no idea what interests you, you won't have the staying power to get through anything else either, unless you are suddenly inspired.

Join the RAF now, without a degree, or get involved in the world of work.

It seems to me you have a fleeting interest in aviation - that is insufficient to succeed in a world with no sponsorships, and debt upwards of £100k for training in some cases.

[Vortex Thing]

Are you all mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOOOOooooo don't join the RAF or any service as an officer now as you will get paid up to £7k a year less than those with a degree doing exaclty the same job!!!!

Rubbish positively rubbish advice, you get promoted slower and get given worse jobs and before anyone thinks this is a chunter it isn't. I was a graduate entrant to the services but I did have to put up with plenty of whinging at RMAS and my pilots course from the BRNC and RAFC grads as to the fact that they were getting so little cash, bleat bleat bleat etc when they had had the chance to go to uni and didn't or were just past puberty and didn't have any debt to pay off anyway!!!

The services pay grads more to attract grads 95% RMAS intake are grads!! admittedly not as many at RAFC but that is not a reason not to go/stay

STAY AT UNI READ THE REST OF MY RANT PLEASE.

Just been sitting on the fence but I cannot anymore. I think that anyone who is not sure if they should go/continue/ leave etc wrt uni must be barking.

If you have the chance to go to university especially at the correct age. Then unless someone threatens you with death GO for gods sake. You do not know what will happen.

You don't know when the next Sep 11th will be you.
You don not know when the next SARS will be.
You only have one life and no reverse button.

Okay I am not saying that you need a PhD or an MBA to get a job as a pilot but in a country where getting a degree is pretty easy for anyone able to pass the ATPL exams then why would you not want to have one?

Don't give me rubbish about student debt. Graduates in this country earn considerably more than average compared to the rest of the country. So when you are in between flying, applying for flying, waiting for flying, temping, taking up alternative career, looking for something else due medical, money, giving up, etc then tell me it didn't help you out.

There are employers out there who say that they do not care about degrees and there are truthful ones. I will admit if you happy to be lucky enough to have a family business to go to or your rellies own a farm/cobblers/etc then yes having a degree will make little difference but for pretty much any job worth having OUTSIDE of aviation (and then only in some firms) NOT having a degree means hat if you do even get considered then it is always at a lower level, slower progression, lower pay grade, etc.

Don't believe me look at the application forms for Deloitte, PricewaterhouseCoopers, KPMG, Ernst Young, any legal job, any medical job, any teaching job, in fact any FTSE firm in the world of Industry and Commerce if we move away from the hard line professions and look at HR, Marketing, Sales, Retail. Tourism, Leisure, the list is endless find any large firm which does not have a graduate programme where you will earn more and get better promotion for having a degree then tell me again why if you could you wouldn't!!!!

A levels are pretty much far harder than most degrees in intensity (as they tend not be complementary in subject matter, are mostly non-modular and are designed to test a certain type of recall not necessary for university success [caveat unless you intend to do a hard line profession i.e. law, medicine, engineering, etc])

However you are not even competing with others who do have a degree in underwater basket weaving if you don't have one. The subject is pretty irrelevant unless you want a vocational backup. i.e. do a BEd if your plan B is to be a teacher, or do nursing so that at the least you have lots of bank work available whilst you look for flying jobs round the world, etc DO not be fooled into thinking that Aeronautical Eng or similar will look good unless you love it it is a very very tough course with little decent employment potential unless you bury yourself in the library for most of uni.

Do something nice and easy and enjoy your youth at parties, climbing mountains and visiting poor African nations whilst you can. You have the entire rest of your life to work! (44 years if you do a 3yr course and no gap year) Who do you know who dies and has an epitaph saying that they wished they'd worked for longer/harder/variations on the theme?

Yes it costs money, yes it takes time but it will give you unrepeatable & unforgettable experiences. Some bad, some good, some scary, some funny, some definitely not so but unless you make the GRAVE GRAVE mistake of thinking university is solely about education you will be far far more employable by anyone with your degree than without. Whatever it is you choose to subsequently do.

For those who mentioned UAS, an excellent way to keep close to aviation I found my time on a UAS of excellent use in my career to date for many reasons other than the flying strangely enough.

I know that I am going to get slated now and really don not care as this is what forums are for. I just think that it is criminal for people to be suggesting that it does not matter. It matters very much not to getting a job but to appreciating your life and the world you live in. I cannot wait for the day that educations (not necessarily school) is made compulsory until 18 in this country and we stop this ridiculous practice of sending children out to work who should be learning skills useful to the crown, the country, the economy and themselves. I think it may be the one thing that I envy Germany for (that and their car industry of course )

[FutureCaptain]

Degree

That could be good for me, as I am only fifteen years of age and plan to acquire a degree first!!

There is hope yet

[world]

I am 16, but i am studying aviation transport (at aviation high-school). What kind of degree do you plan to get?

[FutureCaptain]

Not sure

Not got a clue about the degree yet, just going to pick something that I can atleast fall back on

[DRP]

how important is a degree to become a commercial pilot

Hello there.

Im currently studying for my A levels and really feel that Uni just isn't for me. Im thinking of applying for a CTC Scholarship and want to get straight into a flying career as soon as possible, obviously once I have completed all the training. Can any of you guys give me some insight as to whether or not a degree is vital vs strengths such as age and results, scholarships etc to date...

Much appreciated.

DRP

[planecrazy.eu]

Hey, i try not to get caught up in this, as i am doing a degree...

From what i have read, from what i have been told, there is NO need to do a degree to get the right or even left hand seat.

So why get a degree? Its a fall back plan, if you are young, it gives you a few years more to mature, it teachers some good life lessons.

I am coming out of my degree this year and going integrated or maybe modular? not sure yet, i am going to pick it back up in a few years time, full time if i have no job, part time if i get a job.

I personally think i have learnt lessons from Uni, like i dont want to be here, like its not for eveyone (me).

I am willing to take the risk at the end of having no job offers, and i am willing to just get a normal 9-5 if it goes pear shaped and do my degree part time.

One tip, dont think about it to long, decide and stick to it or you'll just go round and round in circles asking yourself what to do, uni or flying.

Oh and as for Uni "life" its so over-rated, i had more of a social life before, now i have a less social life, less money and when i do go out a few days a week its so crap as i can afford just a few beers. Or i might just be a bitter student, and not managing my money right.

[NurseToPilot]

Originally Posted by FutureCaptain

Not got a clue about the degree yet, just going to pick something that I can atleast fall back on

Well any degree is worth while doing....

I've a Nursing Degree!!

[docash1983]

Taking aptitude tests for flight school whilst finishing off a degree?

Hi guys,
I am currently studying for my LLB law degree as a back up if it doesn’t work out as a pilot. However, my main question is that for some time now I have been planning to take my aptitude tests for either OAT or CTC in January of my final year. This is now fast approaching and I have year to go, is this good idea? If any qualified pilots or trainees have done this I would be very interested to know the pro's and con's of this approach, and whether it is advisable, to do it in your final year or wait until you have finished.
Thanks in advance
Docash

[jordanpolonijo]

What Degree Course?

Hello everyone this is my frist post so here goes.

having finally decided to pursue a career in commercial aviation I feel the best route for my own fulfilment is to undertake a aviation affiliated degree. I would like to study past A Level and would also like the added insurance and benefit of studyin to degree level.

What I wanted to know is which institutes are the strongest for aerospace engineering and aviation. I also wanted to know which courses and universities are respected within the industry and in particular the ATPL training schools like CTC and OET. I want to put myself in a very good position to apply for sponshorship and would feel that an industry specific degree would benefit me well.

My choices are as follow:

Loughborough uni - aerospace engineering

Leeds uni - aviation with pilot studies

Brunel uni - aeronautical engineering + aviation engineering with pilot studies

Kingston uni - aeronautical engineering + foundation degree for commercial atpl training with cab air ( modular )

UCL Queen Marys uni- aeronautical engineering + avionics

I am also soon to sit the GAPAN apptitude and psyometric test to see how i measure up.

Any advice or information would would be greatly appreciated here.

Thanks

[scroggs]

Had you read the READ THIS FIRST sticky at the top of the forum, you would have found the thread that your post is now attached to. You might also find this thread useful.

Whether English is your first language or not, you will need to improve it if you wish to do well either at university or in aviation.
Scroggs

[aircockroaches]

I didn't mention that, I got my PPL at 17 during my A-Level studies.

I agree with the comments being said that University might offer an advantage. But why should I study something that I don't want to be, or study something that I prefer, second to an airline pilot's one?

I have a lot of things they can argue about during the interview such as being in a sports national team, coach it, etc etc.

[rusty_y2k2]

In all honesty just go for it, what's the worst that happens? You get rejected, go to Uni for x years then reapply afterwards (assuming you aren't interested in persuing any other route into aviation)....

I personally found my Gap year and Uni experience combined was of great benefit to me in terms of growing up and gaining that all important "life experience", and most of all it was fun! By no means is everyone suited to it however; I know of a few people who really didn't get on with the uni life and would have been far better off being in the real world earning money rather than racking up debt (although not an issue in your case). That's why I'd never just automatically tell someone they should go to uni...

There are at least a couple of guys out here of the young persuasion without a degree, so if you are good enough you will get through - it's that simple.

[akindofmagic]

university

Reference "cumulus pajaritus's" post:

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at. You seem to be saying that there is no value in doing a degree if you want to be a pilot, unless I have misunderstood you. If that is the case, I couldn't disagree with you more. It is true that one does not require a degree to fly. However, it is irresponsible to suggest to people reading this thread that such a pursuit would be folly. As many others have stated, on this and other threads, a massive part of the university experience is just that; the life experience that you gain from living away from home, and the self discipline that you must acquire to be successful are at least as important to my mind as the qualification that you get at the end of the course. I completed a three year law degree before applying to CTC. Did this make me more likely to succeed at the selection? Who knows? However, I know that I had much more to talk about in terms of leadership and life skills at the interview than I would have done had I applied straight after school.
You suggest that people should go out and get a job related to aviation straight from school. This will work for some people. However, let us look at your scenario "B", the 18 year old who decides not to go to university and instead takes up various aviation related jobs to become the wannabe with "the perfect aviation background" or "an excellent pilot background". Certainly this guy or girl has some good life experience and may be a good candidate for an airline job. Let us suppose, however, that this person loses their class I medical category at the age of 25. Think about the position are they in compared to the person who has a good degree as a fall back option.
You belittle university students everywhere by suggesting that they somehow get a poorer quality of life experience than someone who works straight from school. I personally moved 300 miles from home to go to uni, living in halls of residence of flats with friends for three years. I certainly would not have even contemplated living with my parents! Nor did I study 365 days a year. I took long holidays and had plenty of opportunities to enjoy myself; some might say I even overdid that aspect! I had a great time (mainly) and would recommend the experience to anyone.
I am not saying that one way or the other is right or wrong; as people before me have said on this thread, there are plenty of people who become successful pilots who don't have degrees, and there are those who have degrees who will never make a good career as an airline however hard they try.
The approach that you took to answering the query about whether gaining a degree is a good idea is far too simplistic. I would suggest that any wannabe who is considering attending university should make the decision purely based on whether it is what they want to do; not what they think they should do.
akindofmagic

[dragonfly6]

Exactly, all you trumpets that seem to think it is your responsibility to tell other people what is best for them need a swift re-think.

Probably the same people who didnt think twice when the teacher handed them a ucas form and told them to sign it.

p.s there are many convoluted routes into becoming a pilot. Cabin crew is not one of them.

tea anyone?

[bjkeates]

Note: This was in response to a post above which has since been deleted so it might not make sense. Nevertheless I'll leave it here unless a moderator sees fit to delete it.

Oh dear oh dear. "CU PA", I'm not entirely sure where to start. Like akindofmagic says, your advice - which seems to be based on a far-fetched and wholly inaccurate impression of student life and its value - is completely misleading and, in a way, irresponsible. Not everybody goes to university with the intention of becoming a barrister or a doctor. Your post probably belongs in another thread about university as none of it seems much to do with CTC, however it's been posted in here in response to someone who asked a question and I speak as a CTC cadet who has been to university, as do a few on this board, so I feel a little qualified to respond.

Your idealistic "Guy B" obviously portrays what YOU think is the best way of getting into the right hand seat of an airliner, and no doubt is a route that many - particularly those who are unable (or don't want) to get into a programme such as Wings Cadets or something similar like Oxford's APP - would follow. You neglect to realise, however, that the whole point of programmes like Wings is to fast-track the best applicants into airline jobs without the need to become dispatchers, ramp workers, cabin crew and slowly build up a network of contacts getting themselves to a "it's who you know, not what you know" old-boys-club stage. For that reason, in the context of the programme we are discussing, your point about not going to university but instead following "Guy B"s route is completely irrelevant.

Moving on, I must take issue with your impression of what university life is all about. You say you are not a native speaker so I assume you are not from the UK, where CTC (being a British company) naturally takes the vast majority of its cadets from. On this basis, and from this part of your post:

guy A is 18 years old, he opted to go to UNI, 5 years going to class, plus 1 year extra (some failed exams, etc) at the age of 24 (still living either with mom n dad or under dad $houlders and not going out during weekends, not travelling too much nor taking holidays... basically 365 days in a year locked in your room forcing your mind to study something you reject to study)

...I also assume you have little knowledge of of how the university system in Britain works. Most degrees offered are only three or four years in length (a few, with intercalated years such as industrial placements or years abroad can be five, medical degrees are longer.) Very, very few people take an extra year due to failed exams; a small number may find they don't like their degree and start again, therefore adding on another year. The majority, however, are out of university by the time they are 21 or 22. The majority also live away from home in Halls of Residence at university or in rented houses they share with friends - I know this is different from some European countries where it is considered the norm to go to your local university and live at home, rather than one of your choice. This possibly explains your incorrect impression. I will be going WAY off topic if I start to explain why your view that everyone spends 365 days a year locked in a room studying is wrong but just take my word for it that if you really believe this is how things are at university, you're quite wrong. I'm not going to ramble on about my own background too much again but I'll say quickly - three year degree, away from home, plenty of social time, great friends, time of my life, wouldn't change a thing. And I'm now on the way to the career I've always dreamed about.

Also, returning to my earlier point, you said:

by looking for a job in order to save money for your career as a pilot, two to three years and then you save the money you need, you start to experience the WORLD of a wannabe pilot, 27 years old now, with a Frzn ATPL CPL IR ME MCC, then if you save good money, what? a TR maybe?... you start looking for a job...

Again, this is irrelevant when talking about CTC Wings. The whole point of the programme is that you achieve all these necessary components of your training and THEN move on to type rating and get placed with an airline. It's all part of a single package; the intention is that there is no need to spend hours in the "world of a wannabe pilot" firing off CVs and banging on airline managers' doors. The whole point of programmes like this, which attempt to place you with an airline directly after training, is that you bypass what you term the "wannabe world".

You seem to live in an ideal world where the single important thing when trying to get that sought-after RHS job is motivation and vocation. While I'd agree these are extremely important, there is much more to it than that. The airline job market is so competitive now that you need to make yourself stand out from the crowd. Becoming a ramper or cabin crew and building yourself a network of contacts is not enough - you need to do something to make yourself stand out from the crowd and prove to the airlines and the training organisations that you're the right stuff. You need to excel - anyone can show motivation and desire, but you need more. You need to show why you're better than the rest. For many, getting impressive exam results at A-level and university is the starting point for that, and gaining maturity and (I hate this phrase) "life experience" at uni, building up a bigger picture and gaining experience - which you can talk about in your interviews to demonstrate your qualities - follows on. The reason CTC's programme is so successful is because their selection process is so stringent - they can afford to pick and choose the best people, and much of the time this is the route those people will have taken. (Not always, I hasten to add - see my earlier post.) Airlines like it because they know they're getting the best candidates from a proven background, unlike they would be if they took on "Guy B" and the thousands of others like him who have done their training bit by bit and at various institutions of varying quality, consequently having a more complex track record during their training. Don't get me wrong, people have shown it's possible to make it following that route, but your suggestion that going to university and then on to an integrated FTO is completely wrong and that everyone should be out seeing the world as a hostie/hostess and getting into the industry that way is a little bit strange and also suggests you haven't really researched the different routes into training, particularly through integrated FTOs, at all.

plus you can make CONTACTS, you save good money while you see the WHOLE world while you are young and FREE (with your own money) plus not to mention parties, best good looking girls

That's lovely, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Not everyone who wants to be a pilot wants to spend four or five years of their life partying and pulling girls (or lads) and travelling around the world while they could be getting on with their training and getting another 5 years out of their career. If that's what you want to do, fair play - go and do it. There are airlines around the world crying out for cabin crew. But don't come on a forum which exists to discuss a particular FTO and make inaccurate and ill-informed remarks that, as akindofmagic said above, belittles those who have gone down that particular road.

Also, I have just one more problem with your "Guy B":

at the age of 25 you would have save money, enjoyed gooooooooood flying, learned good skills (better than those who goes for a TR with low hours and want to sit in the cockpit without even knowing how does the earth looks like from 2000 ft and above...)

How on earth can you possibly qualify that statement? Who says that getting a PPL first and then gradually building up multi hours bit by bit as and when one can afford it will give anyone better skills than someone who's been a full time student at a school with one of the best reputations in the world for flight training? Plus, you seem to assume full-time trainees walk into the training centre on day one and get straight in an A320. Perhaps you really haven't done your research properly, but I can assure you it isn't the case and the earth does indeed look beautiful from 2000ft. I also suggest you research how much jobs like crop spraying, banner towing, air advertising (isn't that the same thing?), glider towing and instructing pays. If you think you'll be able to pay the bills and have a nice life partying all over the world, you might be in for a surprise.

you need someone who has a vocation, a desire to study what he really loves to do

Indeed, but if you do a little bit of studying of the industry yourself - the "Archive Reference Threads" posted at the top of the Wannabes forum adjacent to this one is a good place to start - you might find you need a whole lot more than that.

"CU PA", this is probably my longest ever post and I apologise for rambling on so much. Best of luck with whichever route you decide to go down, and I hope the points I've attempted to make to you make some sense.

EDIT: Just one more thing. Why not go to university, get a degree which will stand you in good stead for your future employment prospects should you not make it in aviation, and THEN go and travel and see the world, doing your flying in your spare time? Then you get the best of both worlds! Nobody says you have to come out of school as a fresh-faced GCSE-finisher and become the next "Guy B" without doing a bit more useful study.

[SA242]

Bjkeates, You hit the nail on the head with your above post in every respect.

I live in South Africa, a country where you are more likely to find a crop spraying job, glider towing job or skydiver shoving job than most places in the world. These jobs even here are not easy to get hold of and to assume that you will have a 'wonderful life' building hours bit by bit is simply totally untrue. I have many friends who have slogged their guts out in African countries such as the DRC, Sudan etc in dangerous conditions and it is great for the first month but after that it is extremely tiring. This kind of lifeless flying can go on for years and years before a stable airline job comes along.

I agree with dragonfly6 that it is the individuals decision to make up their minds whether they want to go to uni or not. I do think that people who have the opportunity to go to uni should consider the reasons why they want to go to uni and not just go for the sake of it. The advantages of a degree cannot be understated however. The consideration of licence loss due to medical problems is a real threat as well as the fact that a relevant degree can certainly give some juice to a CV and help the individual if he/she wants to pursue a job on the side of flying.

[cumulus pajaritus]

Continue with the CTC topics

Appologies if i took this forum to another topic, I realised that I moved the line of conversation and it is not fair for the others, first of all appologies and 2nd lets go back to the original topic... CTC CADETS.

Regarding my opinion of the UNI, the moderator can open a new forum or just delete my previous msg, it could be that either I do not have the right info or I am talking about something different to the main topic.

Please do not take me disrespectfull nor offensive towards those who got a degree... someone said it right, I do not know why I/we start giving advices when nobody asked me/us for help...

My other thing was lack of information, if in UK you can get a degree in three years only, different story then, will be ok for a back up plan... (where I come from, takes 5 +years with low jobs perspectives).

And last but not least... never never be unrespectfull (making fun of) towards a CABIN CREW they are part of your team, they will be your colleagues behind your cockpitdoor, you might need to coordinate (hope none) emergencies with them... if you are going to think that they are just for pouring tea... you are having problems with CRM mate... CTC should be aware of you... (dragonfly6) teamwork it is one of the most important words in aviation. (i am willing to pm with you to talk about it, I had to mention it because you wrote before in this forum, but please do not follow this topic in the CTC forum, I am willing to pm with you if you like about CC).

FOR THOSE WHO ARE PLANNING TO GO FOR CTC PROGRAMME, WELL DONE, A DEGREE IT IS ALWAYS A PLUS... (my previous post was off-topic).

Good luck...

CU PA.

[dragonfly6]

RELAX,

my mum is cabin crew.

I was just making a light hearted point how far removed the route to becoming a first officer is with working as cabin crew, which you suggested was the best route to becoming a pilot. Although you seem to have deleted your post....?

...i have CRM coming out my ears, i am a P+G+, synergetic, anti-risky-shift, liveware wonder boy. Having grown up with a captain as a father and chief stewardess as a mother i know and fully respect the crucial role they both play and i take my hat off to them both. I am not being derogative when i mention tea... just a little cheeky.