Education: What A Levels and Degree (if any)?!(Apr '09)
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Interesting debate in places this - I think it says a lot about the society we are living in.
If I was put on the spot, I'm afraid I'd have to say that the maths/physics knowledge req'd to take the groundschool is at or around GCSE level. A-Level ('pure') Maths then begins to concentrate on calculus and not much else. Mechanics 1 is mildly relevant, and may help for M&B. Other A-Level Maths modules, stats/discrete maths have no bearing at all.
In terms of the Physics, some ideas presented about things such as resultant forces, magnetism etc. may be of use but are dealt with in more detail than is really necessary. Here's the key difference between what is required of a pilot and a physicist: The pilot needs to know 1) What will affect him directly and 2) Roughly when and why this will occur. The physicist needs to know 1) A concept 2) The maths behind the concept 3) What experimental conditions are being used 4) To what extent his maths will be skewed by exterior factors 5)... the list goes on. As an example, a pilot may need to be aware that as water condenses, latent heat of condensation is released, and this will raise the airmass temperature. Physics A-Level will more than likely tell you the mass of the water vapour, its specific heat constant, its specific latent heat and asks you to calculate the energy 'loss' as it cools between two temperatures. Clearly this won't be necessary knowledge for the pilot. And so, in terms of pure academic requirements, GCSEs are fine, A-Levels unnecessary.
Where is this going? Well, despite this, I can't advise skipping A-Levels. Unfortunately we have had it imprinted into our heads that MORE people need A-Levels, MORE people need degrees. Without checking the exact figure, the government want ~70% of people coming through the education system to go to university. It's ridiculous. That must imply that 70% of jobs out there require a degree! And if you go to an interview for ANYTHING, odds are the guy sitting next to you has one. While airlines aren't necessaily focussing on your educational background, if it all falls through and you decide to go and get a job elsewhere, you'll regret not having a decent qualification to back it all up.
Another angle might be to say that having completed years of study of some very dry subjects demonstrates a committment and determination (and an intelligence?) that might be valuable qualities in a potential employee.
In terms of WHAT qualifications to go for...I'd give this advice. If being a pilot wasn't an option, what else would you do, and what quals would you need for that? Do you enjoy the subject? If not, is there not a possibility that you'll also not enjoy the career of choice?
One final word is on A-Level Maths. Whilst this is not necessarily relevant to an awful lot of careers, it is unfortunate that a lot of the content does prove very useful in many (and some unexpected) university courses!
Just my two penneth
A38
If I was put on the spot, I'm afraid I'd have to say that the maths/physics knowledge req'd to take the groundschool is at or around GCSE level. A-Level ('pure') Maths then begins to concentrate on calculus and not much else. Mechanics 1 is mildly relevant, and may help for M&B. Other A-Level Maths modules, stats/discrete maths have no bearing at all.
In terms of the Physics, some ideas presented about things such as resultant forces, magnetism etc. may be of use but are dealt with in more detail than is really necessary. Here's the key difference between what is required of a pilot and a physicist: The pilot needs to know 1) What will affect him directly and 2) Roughly when and why this will occur. The physicist needs to know 1) A concept 2) The maths behind the concept 3) What experimental conditions are being used 4) To what extent his maths will be skewed by exterior factors 5)... the list goes on. As an example, a pilot may need to be aware that as water condenses, latent heat of condensation is released, and this will raise the airmass temperature. Physics A-Level will more than likely tell you the mass of the water vapour, its specific heat constant, its specific latent heat and asks you to calculate the energy 'loss' as it cools between two temperatures. Clearly this won't be necessary knowledge for the pilot. And so, in terms of pure academic requirements, GCSEs are fine, A-Levels unnecessary.
Where is this going? Well, despite this, I can't advise skipping A-Levels. Unfortunately we have had it imprinted into our heads that MORE people need A-Levels, MORE people need degrees. Without checking the exact figure, the government want ~70% of people coming through the education system to go to university. It's ridiculous. That must imply that 70% of jobs out there require a degree! And if you go to an interview for ANYTHING, odds are the guy sitting next to you has one. While airlines aren't necessaily focussing on your educational background, if it all falls through and you decide to go and get a job elsewhere, you'll regret not having a decent qualification to back it all up.
Another angle might be to say that having completed years of study of some very dry subjects demonstrates a committment and determination (and an intelligence?) that might be valuable qualities in a potential employee.
In terms of WHAT qualifications to go for...I'd give this advice. If being a pilot wasn't an option, what else would you do, and what quals would you need for that? Do you enjoy the subject? If not, is there not a possibility that you'll also not enjoy the career of choice?
One final word is on A-Level Maths. Whilst this is not necessarily relevant to an awful lot of careers, it is unfortunate that a lot of the content does prove very useful in many (and some unexpected) university courses!
Just my two penneth
A38
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It is not just about the knowledge and content of the courses. A-Levels and degrees in these subjects will significantly develop your level of thinking. I have not just learnt things from my a-levels and degree, it has drastically improved my arithmetic and logic.
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FS
Having scraped a bare pass at Maths 'O' level and failed Physics I really cannot understand just how I am still flying thirty years later - oh well !
Perhaps a good standard of general education would be quite sufficient - hell, for some of the low-cost carriers you barely have to speak English !
Perhaps a good standard of general education would be quite sufficient - hell, for some of the low-cost carriers you barely have to speak English !
Professional Student
Felix,
With you now. I was going to suggest that, in order to finance an ATPL on job earnings alone, it'd probably only be doable if you had the earning power of A-levels & a well-paid degree job, IMHO. (not quite in that situation myself - is anyone, and if so is it doable?)
Plus if you had Maths/Physics A-level (regardless of whether or not they're absoultely essential) that extra knowledge would help.
With you now. I was going to suggest that, in order to finance an ATPL on job earnings alone, it'd probably only be doable if you had the earning power of A-levels & a well-paid degree job, IMHO. (not quite in that situation myself - is anyone, and if so is it doable?)
Plus if you had Maths/Physics A-level (regardless of whether or not they're absoultely essential) that extra knowledge would help.
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Why do I need to quote evidence? If the ground school exams have a significant maths and physics content then obviously further education in these subjects would give you an advantage over people that don't.
If you get bad marks in your atpl exams because you struggled with the maths and physics elements it will be quite costly for you. If you are just finishing school, doing a-levels are free. If they help you pass your atpl exams even by just a fraction, then in my opinion they are a must.
If you get bad marks in your atpl exams because you struggled with the maths and physics elements it will be quite costly for you. If you are just finishing school, doing a-levels are free. If they help you pass your atpl exams even by just a fraction, then in my opinion they are a must.
However.
When it came to the exams our marks were pretty identical, and I actually beat him in Principles of Flight, which is as physics based as you get in the ATPL course. Point is a decent education is always beneficial to getting the career you want, but maths and physics at A-level simply aren't needed to become a pilot and their effect on your ability to pass the groundschool is minimal. As Scroggs said, thousands of us managed just fine without!
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I would strongly advise any of you who are in any doubt about what subjects you take to go back and read this entire thread, not just the last page or two.
I can assure you all that the standard of maths and physics required for the ATPLs is easily within the capabilities of anyone who has decent results at GCSEs. For those who really struggle with Maths and Physics, even at GCSE level, the major ground schools operate refresher courses to bring your knowledge up to the standard required.
No wannabe should feel pressured into taking Maths and Physics at A-Level. With the exception of, if I recall correctly, one sponsoring employer in the relatively recent past, these subjects are not required to secure employment (though they are often required at GCSE level). Neither are they necessary for successful completion of the ATPL ground exams. By all means, if you find Maths and Physics interesting, go and do them at A-Level - but don't expect to find yourself challenged by the standard required by the ATPLs! If your preference is for French and History, go and do these subjects. An employer will be far more impressed by good passes in subjects you enjoy than by a scraped pass - or, worse, a fail - in subjects you detest.
Because of their somewhat peculiar format, the ATPL ground examinations are a hoop to be jumped through, nothing more. They are heavy going, but not particularly difficult. They should not influence or determine your academic choices.
Scroggs
I can assure you all that the standard of maths and physics required for the ATPLs is easily within the capabilities of anyone who has decent results at GCSEs. For those who really struggle with Maths and Physics, even at GCSE level, the major ground schools operate refresher courses to bring your knowledge up to the standard required.
No wannabe should feel pressured into taking Maths and Physics at A-Level. With the exception of, if I recall correctly, one sponsoring employer in the relatively recent past, these subjects are not required to secure employment (though they are often required at GCSE level). Neither are they necessary for successful completion of the ATPL ground exams. By all means, if you find Maths and Physics interesting, go and do them at A-Level - but don't expect to find yourself challenged by the standard required by the ATPLs! If your preference is for French and History, go and do these subjects. An employer will be far more impressed by good passes in subjects you enjoy than by a scraped pass - or, worse, a fail - in subjects you detest.
Because of their somewhat peculiar format, the ATPL ground examinations are a hoop to be jumped through, nothing more. They are heavy going, but not particularly difficult. They should not influence or determine your academic choices.
Scroggs
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Felix,
With you now. I was going to suggest that, in order to finance an ATPL on job earnings alone, it'd probably only be doable if you had the earning power of A-levels & a well-paid degree job, IMHO. (not quite in that situation myself - is anyone, and if so is it doable?)
Plus if you had Maths/Physics A-level (regardless of whether or not they're absoultely essential) that extra knowledge would help.
With you now. I was going to suggest that, in order to finance an ATPL on job earnings alone, it'd probably only be doable if you had the earning power of A-levels & a well-paid degree job, IMHO. (not quite in that situation myself - is anyone, and if so is it doable?)
Plus if you had Maths/Physics A-level (regardless of whether or not they're absoultely essential) that extra knowledge would help.
Professional Student
Blimey! All the better then.
But still, as a general point, I'm not sure if somebody ditching A-levels in favour of a job would be better off in the long run – surely the earning power gained from the qualifications would exceed the money gained during the 2 years of extra employment.
As an aside – have you considered investing in a share in a group aircraft to get a better hourly rate during your CPL hourbuilding? (Not an ad/etc, it’s just I’m considering doing the same thing for my hourbuilding & it’s got potential to be cheaper than block hire rates, especially as you could sell your share on afterwards).
But still, as a general point, I'm not sure if somebody ditching A-levels in favour of a job would be better off in the long run – surely the earning power gained from the qualifications would exceed the money gained during the 2 years of extra employment.
As an aside – have you considered investing in a share in a group aircraft to get a better hourly rate during your CPL hourbuilding? (Not an ad/etc, it’s just I’m considering doing the same thing for my hourbuilding & it’s got potential to be cheaper than block hire rates, especially as you could sell your share on afterwards).
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Go for the long-term investment in education if you are academically able. If not, work hardest in what earns you the most money. Don't get a chip on your shoulder whatever route is taken, since as Scroggs rightly points out, you don't need to be a genius to learn to fly.
Don't allow comments to become "blind leading the blind"...!
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First of all i would like to clarify that i am currently doing A levels having previously achieved 3 A's at As in physics, maths and chemistry so i have no intention of leaving college to chase a career as a bin man with no qualifications. I was asking the question to see if that route is possible. Secondly, i wouldnt be buying a mansion in the middle of london, i would probably put a deposit down on a cheapish house up here in Newcastle and rent it out to people so that the mortgage could be paid. Thus making money whilst still at school!
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Attracting an income from rental properties has been popular over the last few years, but I understand that forthcoming changes to property tax laws may make that market somewhat less attractive. Have a long and in-depth chat with a tax advisor before you commit any cash.
Scroggs
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ATPL Pilot selection Requirements
Hi everyone i'm new to this thing.
I Am currently on a PPL Course in john lennon airport and have successfully completed my air law and Meteorology.
I am also Studying A2 Pure Mathematics alongside Pure Physics and Geography.
I am in the middle of filling out UCAS Form For University but need some advice on the correct course to choose for best chance of being accepted by an airline.
I have saw.
1. Avionics alongised Pilot Studies.
2. Aerospace Engineeing alongside PILOT studies.
or 3 i could just do a maths and physics Honours degree.
If anyone has any sugesstions or Has succesfully completed their course. could they please advise me ASAP as time in running thin.
Thank you.
Phil.
I Am currently on a PPL Course in john lennon airport and have successfully completed my air law and Meteorology.
I am also Studying A2 Pure Mathematics alongside Pure Physics and Geography.
I am in the middle of filling out UCAS Form For University but need some advice on the correct course to choose for best chance of being accepted by an airline.
I have saw.
1. Avionics alongised Pilot Studies.
2. Aerospace Engineeing alongside PILOT studies.
or 3 i could just do a maths and physics Honours degree.
If anyone has any sugesstions or Has succesfully completed their course. could they please advise me ASAP as time in running thin.
Thank you.
Phil.
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And may I suggest that you spend time improving your written English, no matter which career path you intend to persue.
Last edited by Piltdown Man; 29th Nov 2006 at 08:44.
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Advice for a uni student...
Hello,
Sorry if this is posted in the wrong place, this is my first time posting!
I'm a second year Physics degree student who is seriously looking into flying as a career after uni. My father is a commercial pilot and I flew with him in the cockpit my entire childhood all over the world so from a young age I have seen all sides of the job often doing trips back and forth with him without getting off the plane or waking up at 3am/night shifts/uncertain employment at times..and so on..this is what I've wanted to do for a long time and now is the time I have to build up my CV to make sure I get a place on a sponsorship. I am writing to ask 2 questions.
1.I have A Levels in Psychology (A), Maths (C) and Physics (D), and AS Levels in Sociology (A) and Critical Thinking (A). The "D" for Physics resulted in having to sit a Foundation Year at Uni which I achieved a "first" for and I achieved a first for my first year (last year). I'm sure everyone has these excuses but everyone in my A level Physics class ended up doing a foundation year with very similar grades (my D was the highest!!!) and we found out afterwards that everyone in the year before also did foundation years due to Physics grades..what I'm trying to say is that I'm good at Physics!!(As shown by my firsts so far..) but my college/teacher were awful for it!! But I'm sure an application form/interviewer is not interested in such a long story. I see myself getting a First (or at least a high 2.1) for my Physics BSc and I was wondering if this would "cancel out" the Physics A level grade..? I'm considering changing from Physics BSc to Physics MPhys (an extra year which would give me a Masters instead) as I feel this would help my application to a sponsorship program. However this would make it more difficult to achieve a high grade overall! (And I am near enough sick of uni) Any thoughts on this?
2.What sort of work experience could I get and is it even useful? I'm planning to book myself onto some trial flight lessons soon. The physics department are very keen to find us placements over the summer and there is a two month long placement with a company that develop flying simulators for training pilots There is another which deals with jet engines. (I don't know anything more than that at the moment). Would this be helpful to my application?
Any advice would be appreciated
Sorry if this is posted in the wrong place, this is my first time posting!
I'm a second year Physics degree student who is seriously looking into flying as a career after uni. My father is a commercial pilot and I flew with him in the cockpit my entire childhood all over the world so from a young age I have seen all sides of the job often doing trips back and forth with him without getting off the plane or waking up at 3am/night shifts/uncertain employment at times..and so on..this is what I've wanted to do for a long time and now is the time I have to build up my CV to make sure I get a place on a sponsorship. I am writing to ask 2 questions.
1.I have A Levels in Psychology (A), Maths (C) and Physics (D), and AS Levels in Sociology (A) and Critical Thinking (A). The "D" for Physics resulted in having to sit a Foundation Year at Uni which I achieved a "first" for and I achieved a first for my first year (last year). I'm sure everyone has these excuses but everyone in my A level Physics class ended up doing a foundation year with very similar grades (my D was the highest!!!) and we found out afterwards that everyone in the year before also did foundation years due to Physics grades..what I'm trying to say is that I'm good at Physics!!(As shown by my firsts so far..) but my college/teacher were awful for it!! But I'm sure an application form/interviewer is not interested in such a long story. I see myself getting a First (or at least a high 2.1) for my Physics BSc and I was wondering if this would "cancel out" the Physics A level grade..? I'm considering changing from Physics BSc to Physics MPhys (an extra year which would give me a Masters instead) as I feel this would help my application to a sponsorship program. However this would make it more difficult to achieve a high grade overall! (And I am near enough sick of uni) Any thoughts on this?
2.What sort of work experience could I get and is it even useful? I'm planning to book myself onto some trial flight lessons soon. The physics department are very keen to find us placements over the summer and there is a two month long placement with a company that develop flying simulators for training pilots There is another which deals with jet engines. (I don't know anything more than that at the moment). Would this be helpful to my application?
Any advice would be appreciated
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Hi while your studies sound extremely impressive, I have to say that it's all about flying experience i.e. quality time in the cockpit. What you need to do if possible is join you uni air squadron if they have one and obtain a ppl. Once you have that you can try to get a placement with a company, working on their ops desk and flying as a safety pilot would give you an insite into how the commercial world operates. Again if you could get some quality time on a twin turboprop, this would also look extremely impressive on your cv.
As for sponsership, there are very few companys that do this anymore, whats more likely is that you would be invited to take part in a self sponsered type rating scheme (SSTR) The price of this can vary depending on who does your training. Finally you could take the intergrated route with a well known FTO and pay in excess of £60k with a hope of an airline placement at the end. I hope this helps.
R18
As for sponsership, there are very few companys that do this anymore, whats more likely is that you would be invited to take part in a self sponsered type rating scheme (SSTR) The price of this can vary depending on who does your training. Finally you could take the intergrated route with a well known FTO and pay in excess of £60k with a hope of an airline placement at the end. I hope this helps.
R18
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Try and get work placements in Airline Ops departments, especially ones that offer sponsorship. This may get you introduced to the right people.
Other than that.....unfortunately join the que.
Other than that.....unfortunately join the que.
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I need advice about what degree to do
Hi, basically im 18, in was at uni doing a business management degree but it wasnt for me. Im not working taking a gap year and will be applying thru ucas very soon for a new degree. The problem is i have no ide what i want to do. I am interested in flying but i dont know if it will last forever.
So basically what degrees are good at university to get a foothold in the raf or sponsorship etc?
thanks
So basically what degrees are good at university to get a foothold in the raf or sponsorship etc?
thanks
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Choose a degree in a subject that you enjoy. Do not make a golden mistake of selecting something that you think will impress on an application form and then hate it/struggle with it for 3 or 4 years.
A degree demonstrates that you can successfully complete a longish period of study and you will also gain some valuable life experiences. If you are interested in flying/RAF, why not sign up with the University Air Squadron once you have enrolled in a course that you feel you will enjoy and have the potential to do well in.
S
A degree demonstrates that you can successfully complete a longish period of study and you will also gain some valuable life experiences. If you are interested in flying/RAF, why not sign up with the University Air Squadron once you have enrolled in a course that you feel you will enjoy and have the potential to do well in.
S