Which MCC???
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Whatever your allegations of my motives, you are still posting very inaccurate information and I am posting accurate information. Notice I left this for a long time until you were really getting out of hand. Since you are posting material that is clearly wrong either you don't know what you are talking about or you are deliberately trying to misinform people. What are your motives?
It is interesting that instead of defending your posts you attack the people who point out the errors. Surely you should either say why you think you are right or thank us for correcting you!
Several of us do work for course providers, that is how we actually know what we are talking about. Of course we then defend our companies when you post lies about them!
That is not an excuse for being confrontational and posting complete garbage that can only misinform. Why not make a reasonable post that is accurate or leave it to people who know what they are talking about?
It is interesting that instead of defending your posts you attack the people who point out the errors. Surely you should either say why you think you are right or thank us for correcting you!
Several of us do work for course providers, that is how we actually know what we are talking about. Of course we then defend our companies when you post lies about them!
Elsewise Wannabes gets as dull as ditchwater and you don't get a multi-page thread about the ins and outs of MCC courses whereby you lot get to put the case for the course and its merits and its cost
Join Date: Aug 2004
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WWW - leaving aside the insults for a while, would you care to discuss any of the MCC/FNPT2 related points I made in my last post?
Or shall we just take avoidance of the issue as indicative of an admission of defeat when faced with the facts of the matter?
By the way, is WWW following the lead of this Captain?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=158692
That might explain some of the comments he makes!
Or shall we just take avoidance of the issue as indicative of an admission of defeat when faced with the facts of the matter?
By the way, is WWW following the lead of this Captain?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=158692
That might explain some of the comments he makes!
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www.
On page 3 of this long thread you said:
“My words are not handed down in tablets of stone. What Joe Wannabe reads on this thread is a lively passionate argument about the broad merits of MCC courses.”
Yet on page 4 you go on to say:
“Surely the point of the wannabes forum is to offer accurate, balanced advice - not "exciting discussion"? Or have a I missed a point here?”
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
On page 3 of this long thread you said:
“My words are not handed down in tablets of stone. What Joe Wannabe reads on this thread is a lively passionate argument about the broad merits of MCC courses.”
Yet on page 4 you go on to say:
“Surely the point of the wannabes forum is to offer accurate, balanced advice - not "exciting discussion"? Or have a I missed a point here?”
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Actually that was a quote from another post... hence it was in italics.
I stand by MY comments of:
"My words are not handed down in tablets of stone. What Joe Wannabe reads on this thread is a lively passionate argument about the broad merits of MCC courses."
------
bob-morris, (someone who is paid by an MCC selling school) look mate, you may be an old codger or a whippersnapper. I don't know or care. Your Sim may be the best thing since sliced bread as well. BUT, there are plenty of FNPT2 sims out there that cost £100,000 and are fairly rubbish as simulators.
-------
Send Clowns (someone who is paid by an MCC selling school) - I am not writing any lies not misinforming nor being particularly confrontational. Trust me if we take the gloves off I could be a lot worse.
What I AM doing is telling Wannabes that MCC is a waste of money and nobody CARES where or how or with whom you gained your A4 printed bubblejet certificate.
What YOU and others don't like is me doing so.
What I DON'T care about is anybody selling MCC courses and what I DO care about is broke indebted Wannabes needing to save expenditure. Those are my motives - thanks for asking me what they were.
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The learning objectives of the MCC course could be achieved on two upturned orange crates. They could be taught by anyone with a couple of hundred multi crew hours on ANY aircraft. Your fancy sims and your 78 years as a Type Rating Instructor on a Mc Boeing Megabus are ALL a device for justifying a £3000+ course fee.
Thats the truth as I see it.
Its the truth from someone who has worked in the current civilian flight training world.
Its the truth from someone with no interest in how who or why MCCs are provided.
Its the truth from someone who doesn't honestly care wether you believe him or not or whether you like me, hate me or think I am jesus or lucifer.
Do The Cheapest MCC You Can Find -
anyone care to tell me why you should spend more?!?
Cheers
WWW
I stand by MY comments of:
"My words are not handed down in tablets of stone. What Joe Wannabe reads on this thread is a lively passionate argument about the broad merits of MCC courses."
------
bob-morris, (someone who is paid by an MCC selling school) look mate, you may be an old codger or a whippersnapper. I don't know or care. Your Sim may be the best thing since sliced bread as well. BUT, there are plenty of FNPT2 sims out there that cost £100,000 and are fairly rubbish as simulators.
-------
Send Clowns (someone who is paid by an MCC selling school) - I am not writing any lies not misinforming nor being particularly confrontational. Trust me if we take the gloves off I could be a lot worse.
What I AM doing is telling Wannabes that MCC is a waste of money and nobody CARES where or how or with whom you gained your A4 printed bubblejet certificate.
What YOU and others don't like is me doing so.
What I DON'T care about is anybody selling MCC courses and what I DO care about is broke indebted Wannabes needing to save expenditure. Those are my motives - thanks for asking me what they were.
--------
The learning objectives of the MCC course could be achieved on two upturned orange crates. They could be taught by anyone with a couple of hundred multi crew hours on ANY aircraft. Your fancy sims and your 78 years as a Type Rating Instructor on a Mc Boeing Megabus are ALL a device for justifying a £3000+ course fee.
Thats the truth as I see it.
Its the truth from someone who has worked in the current civilian flight training world.
Its the truth from someone with no interest in how who or why MCCs are provided.
Its the truth from someone who doesn't honestly care wether you believe him or not or whether you like me, hate me or think I am jesus or lucifer.
Do The Cheapest MCC You Can Find -
anyone care to tell me why you should spend more?!?
Cheers
WWW
Jet Blast Rat
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WWW
I don't care about MCCs. It is nothing to do with me, and the main people who gain are the company who own the sim. My employers lease one from an airline, as do all the companies here who offer the course. What I do care about is the people who visit here having accurate information, the best information available to help them get a career in aviation - that is why I don't like you saying the things you do, because what you are saying is untrue.
As an aside I then corrected a few unimportant mistakes you made, and inaccurate impressions you have given.
On the latter I will correct one you repeat in ammended form here. I recently looked for an MCC. I only found one at more than £3000. The truth as you see it does not seem to coincide with the available information. Many at well below that figure were offered on a full-flight simulator. I selected one of those, and appreciated the quality, not for the purposes of achieving the MCC objectives but for reasons I have posted earlier in the thread. I mentioned those reasons to give the people reading all the information I can, and I do not appreciate you questioning my motives for doing so, and to accuse us of telling lies while piously claiming to be the only authority for truth is not going to help wannabes. Saying that the course could be done on an orange crate, which is unlikely to be approved, suggests (a) that your course was not very good, as I could not have learnt the crew co-operation lessons I did without a decent, representative training device and (b) you are not trying to help wannabes, just moan about JARs.
Right, that's out of the way.
What I can agree with is that some of the advertising of MCC courses is misleading. Take this from a certain famous training provider's website
It is just not true that you need MCC for a CPL/IR, nor is it relevant to the people likely to read the page that you need one for an ATPL as you also need at least 500 hours multi-crew experience.
This sort of material, and other exageration in advertising does the image of the business no good. However most of the more modest training establishments make no such claims, in my experience. The advertising I saw when looking for a course was strictly fair, accurate and unsensational, describing the course and the relevant JARs.
[edited to make my contribution less conforontational]
I don't care about MCCs. It is nothing to do with me, and the main people who gain are the company who own the sim. My employers lease one from an airline, as do all the companies here who offer the course. What I do care about is the people who visit here having accurate information, the best information available to help them get a career in aviation - that is why I don't like you saying the things you do, because what you are saying is untrue.
As an aside I then corrected a few unimportant mistakes you made, and inaccurate impressions you have given.
On the latter I will correct one you repeat in ammended form here. I recently looked for an MCC. I only found one at more than £3000. The truth as you see it does not seem to coincide with the available information. Many at well below that figure were offered on a full-flight simulator. I selected one of those, and appreciated the quality, not for the purposes of achieving the MCC objectives but for reasons I have posted earlier in the thread. I mentioned those reasons to give the people reading all the information I can, and I do not appreciate you questioning my motives for doing so, and to accuse us of telling lies while piously claiming to be the only authority for truth is not going to help wannabes. Saying that the course could be done on an orange crate, which is unlikely to be approved, suggests (a) that your course was not very good, as I could not have learnt the crew co-operation lessons I did without a decent, representative training device and (b) you are not trying to help wannabes, just moan about JARs.
Right, that's out of the way.
What I can agree with is that some of the advertising of MCC courses is misleading. Take this from a certain famous training provider's website
In order to qialify [sic] for an ATPL (or CPL/IR) you will have to complete a Multi-Crew Co-operation Course after your instrument rating
This sort of material, and other exageration in advertising does the image of the business no good. However most of the more modest training establishments make no such claims, in my experience. The advertising I saw when looking for a course was strictly fair, accurate and unsensational, describing the course and the relevant JARs.
[edited to make my contribution less conforontational]
Last edited by Send Clowns; 20th Jan 2005 at 10:04.
I had resolved to bow out of this argument after it degenerated into a fiction versus fact slanging match but I must take issue with Weasley's statement -
If repeating an untrue statement, knowing it to be untrue, is not lying could you explain to me what is?
I am not writing any lies not misinforming nor being particularly confrontational.
Join Date: Apr 2003
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My, my! The ongoing MCC debate is one that is sure to raise blood pressure on this forum every time!
The bottom line is, I have never met a student that did not thoroughly enjoy the MCC course, no matter where he/she did it.
TP or jet is more a matter of personal choice, I have experience of both and they are probably equally good in the non-type specific MCC course. It's mainly about learning, as the name says, MULTI-CREW procedures.
The quality of instructing is probably more important than the sim itself. A number of us feel that we have to (or can) splash out on a jet/EFIS MCC at the end of a frozen ATPL.
Not sure what the influence of that is on a recruiting airline (unless they fly the very same type of a/c on which you did your MCC - admittedly a fairly remote possibility).
Also, distance (i.e., accommodation costs for the duration of the course) and overall price are to be taken into account.
WWW: I agree it's "a tick in the box" and it wil have to be done all over again at type-rating level, but VERY few arlines would nowadays consider an applicant that hasn't gone through an MCC atfter his/her IR.
Cheers,
The bottom line is, I have never met a student that did not thoroughly enjoy the MCC course, no matter where he/she did it.
TP or jet is more a matter of personal choice, I have experience of both and they are probably equally good in the non-type specific MCC course. It's mainly about learning, as the name says, MULTI-CREW procedures.
The quality of instructing is probably more important than the sim itself. A number of us feel that we have to (or can) splash out on a jet/EFIS MCC at the end of a frozen ATPL.
Not sure what the influence of that is on a recruiting airline (unless they fly the very same type of a/c on which you did your MCC - admittedly a fairly remote possibility).
Also, distance (i.e., accommodation costs for the duration of the course) and overall price are to be taken into account.
WWW: I agree it's "a tick in the box" and it wil have to be done all over again at type-rating level, but VERY few arlines would nowadays consider an applicant that hasn't gone through an MCC atfter his/her IR.
Cheers,
