Which MCC???

[rapg1000]

Hi,

Ive just completed my CPL MEIR and I'm looking for an MCC, but there seems to be so much conflicting advise!

From what I can gather the quality of instruction is very important but it doesnt seem to matter what sim its on.

So basically I think I need the cheapest course available with a fantastic instructor.

Ideas?

Thanks.


Any views on London Met?

[Mosspigs]

It depends where you live, but I hear Wolverhampton (Halfpenny Green) is very good.

[African Drunk]

Try CTC or Parc.

[flighttime2.0]

Hi rap

I spoke to a guy who works on the interview board for an airline I wont mention right now but he told me im better holding off on the mcc till I approach an airline because they prefere you use an mcc facility that they recommend. Not sure what your feeling is on that , just telling you what he said !!!!

flightime !

[buzzc152]

..... but airlines won't look at yuo until you have the MCC ??

I'm in a similar position. Recently completed CPL and MEIR at Stapleford and now thinking about MCC. I think I'd quote like to have some jet sim hours on my CV, but really it's probably not that important.

I'm doing my FIC in the next few months so may wait until I've built some hours and starting to get some bites from the airlines before MCCing

[rapg1000]

Thanks for your posts guys,

Ok now I'm more confused because someone else said its best to get some jet sim time at the MCC stage because when (if?!) I get a sim check at interview it will probably be on a jet sim....

But the jet sim courses are £500-800 more expensive. Is it worth it just for the 'tick in the box'?

decisions decisions...!

[Capt BK]

Unfortunately you are not going to get a clear cut answer. I've been watching MCC threads for seemingly years now and every one is the same - Jet v Turbo. It's exactly the same as Integrated v Modular or Groundschool v Distance Learning.

All I can suggest is to get as much information from each course and make a desicion as to which one YOU would prefer to do. From what I gather there is no right or wrong in this industry. Some airlines like ex instructors but some dont. Some like MCC jet sims but some dont care. What some like, others dont so I feel it is impossible to keep everybody happy, the only person you can is yourself.

I was working on a tight budget so I considered cost, accomodation and availability and in the end chose a King Air sim at AFT. Wether this was the right or wrong desicion only time will tell but I thoroughly enjoyed my course so I'm happy. I have friends that have done their MCC on a jet sim and enjoyed theirs too.

As the MCC only has to be done once there are few people that have done the course on both types of sim and therefore it is very difficult to find any comparison.

Some advice I can give is to find out during what hours the sim is used on each course. I understand some courses (Jet and Turbo) utilise the sim during the night which is certainly not ideal, a point which should be made clear in the groundschool element!!

Which ever course you choose, it will be a bigger aircraft and it's great fun playing with it - enjoy yourself

CBK

P.S. Regarding Sim checks, I've been told by three training captains that all they are looking for in the sim ride is basic general handling skills and an improvement over a couple of flights. They know you can't fly a 757, they are trying to get an overall feel as to wether they think you could complete the course and they will of course take your past experience into account. If you have some jet time you may impress and improve quickly, if you don't you may not but the instructor may not look for the same level of competance. Again it's horses for courses

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

rapg,

Agree with Capt BK, I don't think you will be at any advantage or disadvantage whether you do the course on a Jet or a Turbo-prop Sim. I have also been told by a number of different sources that when being assessed on a sim check, they are looking for your basic handling skills, and your ability to improve throughout your flight details.

From my own personal experience, I chose to do my MCC on a full motion B757 sim. For me it was a nice way to finish after doing the IRT purely from the amount of fun I had, as well as learning an awful lot about CRM, and what it is actually like to fly a heavy medium sized jet.

Good luck with what you decide.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Cheapest is best.

Spend the difference on a sharp suit, sharp haircut and fancy shoeshining machine - much more likely to impress a prospective interviewer.

FTO's with expensive jet style sims tell you they are worth it because they need to pay their bills and make a profit.

You can learn Multi Crew Coordination skills on two upturned orange crates in an office broom cupboard in a Slough retail park with a torch by teaching yourself from a book. Pleezzzzeee don't go spending £3,500 on it!

Its only learning how to say "check" a lot and making sure you don't do anything without saying so before or afterwards. Challenge and Response checklists aren't exactly rocketscience... Neither is calling "V1" or "Set Thrust" or "Retune Radios for Missed Approach". Its money for old rope - therefore cheapest is bestest.

Cheers

WWW

[BillieBob]

What a complete load of bollox!

You won't find many TRIs or SFIs who would support www's point of view. It's immediately obvious whether a candidate for a first multi-pilot type rating has received good or bad MCC training, and those that have received good training find the type rating course streets easier. It matters not one jot whether you do the MCC on a jet or turboprop, it's only the quality of instruction that matters. However, I lean toward the school of thought that says you find it less of a culture shock transferring from piston to turboprop and can concentrate more on the job in hand, but then I never had to do a MCC course so what do I know?

Having experienced the output of most UK MCC providers, I'd say you'd be hard pushed to beat Jetlinx - who just happen to use BA's sims at Cranebank (although I'm sure their product would be just as good if they used a FNPT II but not, perhaps, two upturned orange crates.)

[Send Clowns]

I think BillieBob has hit it, that you want good training because of what you can learn and because crew co-operation is important (though I would add that it increases your probability of surviving to buy that small island with your huge Captain's pension). I was pleased to have used a jet (L1011 Tristar - awesome ) because it gave me confidance that I can cope with a sim ride at jet speeds.

[GASH !]

The Flight Centre at Wolverhampton was the cheapest by far when I did mine.

However, if you enjoy wasting money (as many people on here do) then choose anywhere else!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

MCC courses are the biggest profit centres for FTOs - they make a mint out of them.

Stick 8 people at £2,500 each into a classroom for less than a week. Let them play on 'Simulator' that may or may not handle like the real thing, and, which may or may not be fully serviceable. Work through some generic exercises that anyone with 50hours on the line has mastered anyway.

Hire some instructor who has <suck air through teeth> thousands of hours of "commercial" experience, possibly even having been, in some form, one of those mystical creatures - a Training Captain. Who now has lost his medical years ago and who largely just plays golf inbetween reading the Daily Mail and moaning about his council tax.

Let him (and it always is) generously pass down his pearls of flying wisdom of how they did it on Tristars (when Bloggs is going onto Airbus next week) in the 1980's with nothing but an NDB crosscut to get you to Bombay (as he still calls it) and back.

So its £250 for the classroom for the week, £1,500 to get Nigel to put down his clubs, £250 in materials, £500 for advertising and admin, £2,500 to cover the 'sim' machine and BINGO - £20k in for £5k out. Nice one.

And just think - up until 4 years ago every airline pilot in the country was let loose on the line WITHOUT have attended ANY Multi Crew Cooperation course! Heavens! How did they manage!

Go for the cheapest.

WWW

[African Drunk]

I would advise people to look at some of the MCC providers who have links to airlines and a have a good chance of getting you a job(if you perform well). CTC has links with the likes of easyjet and parc with EU jet. I do to an extent agree with WWW but if I was to do my MCC again I would probably pay the extra if there was a chance of getting a job from it.

[moggiee]

WWW - thanks for the glowing and "balanced" assessment!!

The majority of MCC providers do a good job of trying to impart a great deal of knowledge to trainees in a ridiculously short period of time (20 hours is too little).

The majority of MCCIs are experienced pilots who have a good understanding of the skills required to function as an effective crew member, as well as a thorough knowledge of industry practice. Our MCCIs (some of whom are in current flying practice) come from both civil and miltary backgrounds, with jet and turbprop experience and are well able to pass on their knowledge to the customers.

Airlines who currently employ some of our ex-trainees profess them to be very pleased with the standards to which the pilots in question were trained on the MCC - and when an airline requests us to do it, we can teach their specific SOP on the MCC, further enhancing the learning value.

Having taught MCC on both Jet and Turboprop FNPT2s (both of which VERY faithfully replicate the handling and performance of the aeroplanes upon which they are based), I can honestly say that the jet vs TP arguement is irrelevant - it is all about working as part of a team, not how fast you go (although below 10,000' you can pretty much fly our TP sim at jet speeds if you so desire).

What matters most is the quality of training received - and by and large that is pretty good.

You should try it some day - practice what you preach and pass on your knowledge.

[BillieBob]

It would seem that Weasley has fallen into the familiar trap of taking the example of his own, clearly poor, choice of MCC provider and assuming that all others are as bad. As has been explained many times before on these forums, it is not possible for someone who has experience of only one training provider to make a valid judgement on any other and Weasley's opinion is, therefore, of limited value. There is no doubt that a good quality MCC course makes a significant difference to the transition from single-pilot to multi-pilot operations and has a positive effect on the ability and awareness of a new F/O and, therefore, on flight safety.

The contention that the statement "up until 4 years ago every airline pilot in the country was let loose on the line WITHOUT have attended ANY Multi Crew Cooperation course!" has any relevance to a discussion on the value of such a course is intellectually flawed. The increased ease of transition and quality of product, not to mention the reduction in training time in some cases, following the introduction of the mandatory MCC course is unarguable, as any TRI with both pre and post-MCC experience on a multi-pilot type rating programme will tell you.

I repeat, having dealt with the output of most UK MCC courses, it is not the training device that makes the difference, it is the quality of the instructors - the one point on which I will agree with Weasley is that you should avoid, like the plague, the superannuated BOAC Training Captain and go for a course where the instructors are current airline pilots.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Billiebob - My MCC was done by my first airline. Many wannabes find that this happens anyway and that therefore their MCC 'investment' was wasted money. Luckily I never fell for that trap.

I've seen plenty of MCC courses and have many many friends, colleagues and ex-students who have been on them from dozens of providers. Therefore my opinion is of more than limited value. Whereas yours and Moggies are tainted somewhat by fact of you earning a living from MCC course provision. Caveat Emptor - people.

MCC courses are a waste of time and were never intended by the CAA to be courses paid for by students prior to airline interview.

Everything taught on them is covered anyway during the type conversion course and the subsequent line training within the airline.

YES all training has some benefit. But your average MCC course is a waste and suplication of money. Often run at great profit by FTOs employing instructors who frankly can't get work doing anything else.

Sure there are some great instructors running MCC courses that are as good as can be. But that isn't the average persons experience and you know as well as I that there are some pretty shoddy courses out there.

Its not that the MCC stuff is totally useless and irrelevant - it isn't. BUT mostly its all covered in the airline course and on the line. By which time the MCC course is usually half forgotten and used different SOPs and certainly didn't add thousands of pounds worth of training value.

If money is no object then go on the biggest shiniest MCC course you can - in fact hire a Boeing and go and do it in realtime. But in reality go for the cheapest, use the money saved for IR renewals, for interview expenses, for a decent suit, for an interview coaching course.... all these and more are going to give you a better shot at that first job.

People on these forums extolling the merit of MCC courses are very usually connected to providing them in some way. Bear that in mind.

Cheers

WWW

[Crashlanding]

I might as well add my two cents worth.

I did my MCC with Air Atlantic on the Beech 200.

Course took 2 weeks.

All the instructors both for the sim and the course where very good. I think the turbo prop was a good option as I had slightly more time to do things rather than going some 100+ knots faster and rushing.

Most importantly is to have fun and enjoy the training, consider this as the first time in your training to relaxe, your not going to kill anyone if it goes wrong, your going to learn a lot about communication and standard practices/phrases. And more importantly its not like doing your Inital IR, you will more than likely be flying most of the time using the autopilot.

Have fun

Neil

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well thats nice. But thousands of pounds nice? Really?!

There are far distant rumours that the MCC requirement will dissapear in coming years through a process of harmonisation. Do you really think our Southern continental cousins - wou are JAA compliant - really make their young aviators spend 3,000 Euro on a certificate.....?

Cheers

WWW

[BillieBob]

My MCC was done by my first airline.

Ah, so you don't actually have first hand knowledge of any modular MCC provider

....have many many friends, colleagues and ex-students who have been on them from dozens of providers.

Dozens? That's pretty neat trick considering there are only 13 modular MCC providers approved by the UK CAA. How about 'One or two'?

Whereas yours and Moggies are tainted somewhat by fact of you earning a living from MCC course provision.

Not true - whilst Moggie is, by his own admission, an MCCI, I have never taught on an MCC course. I do, however, have first hand experience, as a TRI both before and after the introduction of the MCC course, of the benefit it has brought to the first MPA type rating.

MCC courses are a waste of time

You are entitled to your opinion, albeit formed with no first hand knowledge.

People on these forums extolling the merit of MCC courses are very usually connected to providing them in some way.

But not in this case. However, we mustn't let the facts get in the way of a bit of good old fashioned blind prejudice, must we?

Keep truckin'