What are newbees supposed to do?
it does not make marketable sense to be as disinterested as some airlines are.
You are nothing more than an irritant to the staff of the airlines you are speculatively applying to. You have to realise that. Just as much as I would be an irritant to BA staff were I to apply, unsolicited, to them for a job.
By all means seek advice on these forums. That is what they are for. But so far your major contributions have been to bitch about your instructors not liking you and to bitch about airlines not being polite enough...
Try to stop thinking about airlines and start thinking about becoming a flying instructor or an Ops gofor or a baggage handler. I was just speaking to someone who has got 350hrs on a bizjet after working on their ops desk for 13 months, after being a flying instructor on the same airfield for a 6 months. Despite qualifying just at the wrong time he has taken a succession of crappy jobs, lived in some very dodgy digs and earned his 800hrs. He starts in a week or so on a slightly bigger bizjet earning OK money. His career is now taking off and his job needs a replacement...
It would perhaps be better for you to pursue this line of attack rather than targetting disinterested airlines.
Clue: the airfield is 5 mins from my house.
Good luck,
WWW
You are nothing more than an irritant to the staff of the airlines you are speculatively applying to. You have to realise that. Just as much as I would be an irritant to BA staff were I to apply, unsolicited, to them for a job.
By all means seek advice on these forums. That is what they are for. But so far your major contributions have been to bitch about your instructors not liking you and to bitch about airlines not being polite enough...
Try to stop thinking about airlines and start thinking about becoming a flying instructor or an Ops gofor or a baggage handler. I was just speaking to someone who has got 350hrs on a bizjet after working on their ops desk for 13 months, after being a flying instructor on the same airfield for a 6 months. Despite qualifying just at the wrong time he has taken a succession of crappy jobs, lived in some very dodgy digs and earned his 800hrs. He starts in a week or so on a slightly bigger bizjet earning OK money. His career is now taking off and his job needs a replacement...
It would perhaps be better for you to pursue this line of attack rather than targetting disinterested airlines.
Clue: the airfield is 5 mins from my house.
Good luck,
WWW
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HWD
I think you will find that the oscillations are more as a consequence of general economic 'boom and bust'. The aviation industry is a very close barometer for the general economic climate; In the good times businesses tend to be happier to fund business travel and holidaymakers more likely to book up for their two weeks of sun, perhaps more than once a year. As soon as the economy contracts the aviation industry starts to suffer. Businesses tighten the belt and the average punter has to cut back on the non-essentials.
I think you should be lobbying your politicians to avoid the boom and bust and provide stability, which would benefit most industries, aviation included. I'm no great fan of the present UK government, but one thing they realized was the the last governments policies induced boom and bust in the economy and they had to get away from that.
I think the evidence is to the contrary; there are too many people trying to get into this industry as pilots and plenty with the required qualities. I don't see the training establishments going bust left, right and centre even after the downturn caused by Sept 11th.
I can't see it in the near future. Who knows what the market and the economy will be like in 5 years even? The long term theory is for increased demand in air transport but there will still be hiccups along the way.
PP
These airline induced oscilations that have been evident for the last 20-30 years are partly down to how difficult it is to respond to the need for pilots when the demand is there and how remote such a career seems when there is no demand.
I think you should be lobbying your politicians to avoid the boom and bust and provide stability, which would benefit most industries, aviation included. I'm no great fan of the present UK government, but one thing they realized was the the last governments policies induced boom and bust in the economy and they had to get away from that.
I am of the firm belief that there are fewer people trying to get into aviation because it is so indifferent to trainees. This will surely result in another skills vacuum in the not too distant future.
This will surely result in another skills vacuum in the not too distant future. Some might think that is good for their prospects, it will be, for about three to ten years before you face redunancy.
PP
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This forum is visited by many very experienced pilots and other aviation professionals who are either very thorough in their reading of PPRuNe, or more likely have an interest in the questions or problems posed by wannabee contributors.
To those (few) of you who believe that such folk only come here to respond with "put downs" or "nasty comments", I really don't think anybody reads the posts with that intention.
It is a difficult career for many people to enter. Nevertheless many manage to do it. I am always interested to hear of my fellow work colleagues how they managed it. Never heard one yet who got where they are by complaining to the world at large.
Perhaps you are right and we should be sympathetic to your difficulties in which case I apologise and of course the airlines should be nice to you, and everyone already employed should tell you how unfair everything is. It is outrageous how much money you have had to spend when we all got here because of our daddies money or beacuse we are "ponses" whatever that may mean ? Of course there is an arguement that giving a short response that is a simple reality check borne out of real world experience might be worth your consideration as well.
Personally speaking I understand the frustration that some may feel and I sympathise. However all the sympathy in the world won't help you if you don't have the motivation luck and attitude that is necessary to suceed. The first two are hard to judge from a post but the latter is glaringly lacking from some contributors to these threads. For those that do persevere and knuckle down and hopefully get a little good luck along the way you have my best wishes and you deserve the opportunity. For those that wallow in their own grief or drop out for whatever reason then good luck in what ever you do. That is as close as your going to get to a hug !
To those (few) of you who believe that such folk only come here to respond with "put downs" or "nasty comments", I really don't think anybody reads the posts with that intention.
It is a difficult career for many people to enter. Nevertheless many manage to do it. I am always interested to hear of my fellow work colleagues how they managed it. Never heard one yet who got where they are by complaining to the world at large.
Perhaps you are right and we should be sympathetic to your difficulties in which case I apologise and of course the airlines should be nice to you, and everyone already employed should tell you how unfair everything is. It is outrageous how much money you have had to spend when we all got here because of our daddies money or beacuse we are "ponses" whatever that may mean ? Of course there is an arguement that giving a short response that is a simple reality check borne out of real world experience might be worth your consideration as well.
Personally speaking I understand the frustration that some may feel and I sympathise. However all the sympathy in the world won't help you if you don't have the motivation luck and attitude that is necessary to suceed. The first two are hard to judge from a post but the latter is glaringly lacking from some contributors to these threads. For those that do persevere and knuckle down and hopefully get a little good luck along the way you have my best wishes and you deserve the opportunity. For those that wallow in their own grief or drop out for whatever reason then good luck in what ever you do. That is as close as your going to get to a hug !
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PP,
I take on board everything you say, I simply cannot disagree. I guess what I am trying to say is that the airlines don't seem to help their cause much (not ours). My hypothesis is that if they did more to level out the inevitable rough economic patches everybody involved would be better off. Just taking us poor trainees into consideration is the tail wagging the dog - no doubt about that. I am certain being able to respond to demand, on demand, is part of the solution. The five "P" acronym springs to mind
However, I can only hypothesise, as I don't actually know!
BTW, I very much enjoyed your story. It is invaluable to get a first hand account of just what is involved, and the hiccups
I take on board everything you say, I simply cannot disagree. I guess what I am trying to say is that the airlines don't seem to help their cause much (not ours). My hypothesis is that if they did more to level out the inevitable rough economic patches everybody involved would be better off. Just taking us poor trainees into consideration is the tail wagging the dog - no doubt about that. I am certain being able to respond to demand, on demand, is part of the solution. The five "P" acronym springs to mind
However, I can only hypothesise, as I don't actually know!
BTW, I very much enjoyed your story. It is invaluable to get a first hand account of just what is involved, and the hiccups
Last edited by High Wing Drifter; 16th Sep 2003 at 22:37.
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FFF- agree , I did post that about seeking a position, it was not for me, I did it to help a youngster, he was not registered with Pprune.
To the other comments --Well taken. I do realize the implications most of you mention, maybe I am an idealist, maybe I wanted to see if there were any others who would take up cudgles on behalf of these wouldbees. If I had the means and the capacity I would have rounded up a few like-minded--Any takers yet?
Guys , I am aware that economics, and the way things are today its a shot in the dark, but quite a few good things have been achieved in the past when ideas, thoughts were penned & shared.
If some have found my post naive, maybe it is--
My post has generated many view points, yes I did ask for them and it is fine as long as it stays within limits.
I am still optimistic that soon someone will think real hard and come up with a solution---
I know many of these wannabees , they are all aware that it was not going to be easy when they opted for flying as a career, they just need that 'foot in the door' opening.
BTW there is a school ( mentioned in the Regional Airline World issue ofJuly / August 2003 Vol. 20) main 'feature----Pilot training programmes Where training is more than Academic---- that train pilots to build hours, this gives me hope that many more will come up soon.
Thanks for your time to read my post.
To the other comments --Well taken. I do realize the implications most of you mention, maybe I am an idealist, maybe I wanted to see if there were any others who would take up cudgles on behalf of these wouldbees. If I had the means and the capacity I would have rounded up a few like-minded--Any takers yet?
Guys , I am aware that economics, and the way things are today its a shot in the dark, but quite a few good things have been achieved in the past when ideas, thoughts were penned & shared.
If some have found my post naive, maybe it is--
My post has generated many view points, yes I did ask for them and it is fine as long as it stays within limits.
I am still optimistic that soon someone will think real hard and come up with a solution---
I know many of these wannabees , they are all aware that it was not going to be easy when they opted for flying as a career, they just need that 'foot in the door' opening.
BTW there is a school ( mentioned in the Regional Airline World issue ofJuly / August 2003 Vol. 20) main 'feature----Pilot training programmes Where training is more than Academic---- that train pilots to build hours, this gives me hope that many more will come up soon.
Thanks for your time to read my post.
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There are still lots of entry level jobs out there. You just have to be willing to make the sacrifice, Moving and low pay. But the jobs are out there. There are at least 5 companies that I know of in Alaska that have right seat programs for low time pilots. Of course it is not in the right seat of some Jet going all over the world, but in Caravans, Casas, Metroliners, and Twin Otters. I am sure these kinds of jobs are all over the world if you are willing to find them.
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Nothing's going to be handed to you on a platter, especially in this industry.
As what has been made clear in all previous posts, everyone else has done/is doing the work to get to the flying job they want, so quit your whinging, take a number, get in the queue and join the club!
As what has been made clear in all previous posts, everyone else has done/is doing the work to get to the flying job they want, so quit your whinging, take a number, get in the queue and join the club!
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Cycles
I sympathise with the predicament of anyone who has invested so much time and money into training for a career and hasn't secured a flying job. I can't think of any other career choice which demands so much effort and yet offers so little guaranteed reward. Even in Football you only give your time and usually little money to train but aviation is not like that.
It isn't the fault of the airlines however that they suffer this dreadful boom bust cycle every ten years, I am certain if they could they'd love to find a way out of it - it is a crisis of monumental proportions in American, Aer Lingus, BA, Midland, Virgin etc. Sadly, if you want to look for reasons why the industry suffers these oscillations you have to point the finger at the middle East problem more often than not eg. the oil crisis of 1974, first Gulf War in 1991, the twin towers in 2001, the Gulf War in 2003 have shaken the industry to the core.
On the up-side more and more people want to travel and the airlines are leaner and fitter than ever. Couple that with the fact that there are hardly any sponsored cadets in the system and you've got the potential for a huge surge in self-sponsored pilot demand as recovery gathers pace.
Humanity has an increasing passion to travel and explore the world. Lets hope that all of us become the pilots who fly them.
Hang in there buddy,
Desk-pilot
It isn't the fault of the airlines however that they suffer this dreadful boom bust cycle every ten years, I am certain if they could they'd love to find a way out of it - it is a crisis of monumental proportions in American, Aer Lingus, BA, Midland, Virgin etc. Sadly, if you want to look for reasons why the industry suffers these oscillations you have to point the finger at the middle East problem more often than not eg. the oil crisis of 1974, first Gulf War in 1991, the twin towers in 2001, the Gulf War in 2003 have shaken the industry to the core.
On the up-side more and more people want to travel and the airlines are leaner and fitter than ever. Couple that with the fact that there are hardly any sponsored cadets in the system and you've got the potential for a huge surge in self-sponsored pilot demand as recovery gathers pace.
Humanity has an increasing passion to travel and explore the world. Lets hope that all of us become the pilots who fly them.
Hang in there buddy,
Desk-pilot
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I think it depends on demand and supply like someone said, when the pilot market picks up and there is a strong demand for pilots, the surely low hour pilots will get considered too!
The key i reckon to gettting your foot in the door are what i call the 3 " P's ".........Persistence, Persistence, Persistence!!!
Most games are won with persistence, and not just pilot employment!
Just keep sending your CV every month on a revolving basis to all the airlines, but a lot of low hour pilots dont normally start off with the major airlines anyway do they ie; with the likes of Airtours, Easyjet, BA etc, i think its best to get on the first rung of the ladder byt targeting smaller 30-50 seat passenger carrying arilines suck as Manx, brymon, erm ...Jersey European etc, or cargo flying airlines like Emerald. If i had a CPL/IR frozen ATPL id be targeting these guys with CV's fone calls and personal visits etc etc until they got sick of me!
then, although not the most glamourous jobs/destinations for pilots, ie Isle of man routes etc, you are building hours (about 400 per year) if you are lucky to get a job!
be Persistent!
bounjour
xx
Also forgot to mention, theres a lot of talk in the wannabes forums about newly qualified pilots/ wannabes seeking jobs straight away with the big airlines, and when they are not successful with selection/ interviews etc they become dis-illusioned as to why this is.
What not a lot of people mention though, is that its better to start lower down, build hours etc, then step up later.
bonjour
The key i reckon to gettting your foot in the door are what i call the 3 " P's ".........Persistence, Persistence, Persistence!!!
Most games are won with persistence, and not just pilot employment!
Just keep sending your CV every month on a revolving basis to all the airlines, but a lot of low hour pilots dont normally start off with the major airlines anyway do they ie; with the likes of Airtours, Easyjet, BA etc, i think its best to get on the first rung of the ladder byt targeting smaller 30-50 seat passenger carrying arilines suck as Manx, brymon, erm ...Jersey European etc, or cargo flying airlines like Emerald. If i had a CPL/IR frozen ATPL id be targeting these guys with CV's fone calls and personal visits etc etc until they got sick of me!
then, although not the most glamourous jobs/destinations for pilots, ie Isle of man routes etc, you are building hours (about 400 per year) if you are lucky to get a job!
be Persistent!
bounjour
xx
Also forgot to mention, theres a lot of talk in the wannabes forums about newly qualified pilots/ wannabes seeking jobs straight away with the big airlines, and when they are not successful with selection/ interviews etc they become dis-illusioned as to why this is.
What not a lot of people mention though, is that its better to start lower down, build hours etc, then step up later.
bonjour
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I think it is best to not restrict yourself when you have low hours. You need to be applying to any airline where you stand a chance of getting a job. If that includes 'big' airlines then don't not consider them. If you get lucky then great.
Do not, however just keep blasting CVs and making a pain of yourself
as that is a sure fire way to get no further when the recruitment door eventually opens with that airline.
PP
Do not, however just keep blasting CVs and making a pain of yourself
until they got sick of me!
PP
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"Strafer"
"Is it me or is every other thread on Wannabees now "Boo, hoo airlines won't give me a job", "Sob, sob I spent loads of money", "Blah, blah is it worth it?" etcetera, etbloodycetara"
That one made me laugh! So true!
"Is it me or is every other thread on Wannabees now "Boo, hoo airlines won't give me a job", "Sob, sob I spent loads of money", "Blah, blah is it worth it?" etcetera, etbloodycetara"
That one made me laugh! So true!
