The Dreaded Hi-viz vest
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withdoctor
I don't think they are protesting about wearing them, I certainly am not. The objection seems to be more about the arbitrary imposition of rules which are out of proportion to the perceived risk and cause inconvenience to users.
These same "idiots", having undergone a syllabus of training and having passed their examinations, are considered by the CAA fit persons to command an aircraft and make decisions on the safe conduct of flight.
If they put a great big fence around the airside at Popham with a security gate, restricted access, and made everyone be escorted to and from aircraft it would be totally out of proportion to the actual risk. Doing the same at Southampton by contrast is sensible.
Well of course if we banned flying altogether it would eliminate the risk of aircraft accidents.
Could we try to elevate the standard of this debate? Name-calling is never likely to win an argument.
Mike
idiots protesting loudly against the wearing of hi viz vests
These same "idiots", having undergone a syllabus of training and having passed their examinations, are considered by the CAA fit persons to command an aircraft and make decisions on the safe conduct of flight.
If they put a great big fence around the airside at Popham with a security gate, restricted access, and made everyone be escorted to and from aircraft it would be totally out of proportion to the actual risk. Doing the same at Southampton by contrast is sensible.
Personally, I reckon the single biggest safety improvement possible is to ban turkeys like you from airfields altogether, hi viz jackets or not.
Could we try to elevate the standard of this debate? Name-calling is never likely to win an argument.
Mike
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Apparently, the CAA recently recommended that all personnel airside should wear hi-viz vests and so it's been implemented - much to the disgust of all concerned - especially the students, who've all had to fork out and buy one.
They don't have to buy one. If you had checked with the flying school, you will have noticed there are some people can use. Mind you I can see your point - having to "fork out" all of £4 must break the bank for students who can afford £95/hr for a lesson.
So, does that mean that every trial lesson punter that comes along has to buy a hi-viz vest?
Again check your facts. There are around 15 high vis jackets for trial lessons (and their families if they would like to be escorted airside to take pics etc)
What constitutes Hi-viz? If I wear a yellow or orange t-shirt, in ordinary daytime conditions I'm every bit as conspicuous as the next hi-viz person.
So you wear Luminous shirts do you? Nice fashion sense. Its probably easier to impose rules to wear these jackets than to argue these inane petty points with people.
And in 35 years of airside aviation activities, i've never been hit by a taxiing aircraft. And neither has anyone else at Barton.
No, doesnt mean it wont ever happen though does it? My house hasn’t burnt down, not any of my neighbours, so lets get rid of our local fire service shall we?
This isn't going to stop me walking into a moving propeller though is it (though I suppose it will make my bits more visible to pick up off the apron)?
Please don't let it STOP you, will you?
The world has gone stark staring, cover-its-a**e, insurance company-driven, politically correct, jobsworth, Barking Mad.
Its a claim culture. I bet you've claimed whip lash in an accident or something like that, giving rise to these stupid rules in the first place because the insurance companies are paying out so much money, this is their way or clawing some back.
How long before I have to buy one for my dog?
Only when on the apron please.
Why can't a respectable, comfortable hi-viz vest be made? One that could possibly double for a fashion item?
For a man that already seems to own a Luminous shirt, fashion sense isn’t really a problem. They are comfortable, I wore one yesterday for 4hrs without issue.
GGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Impression of your dog being killed by a propeller whilst not wearing a high vis vest?
They don't have to buy one. If you had checked with the flying school, you will have noticed there are some people can use. Mind you I can see your point - having to "fork out" all of £4 must break the bank for students who can afford £95/hr for a lesson.
So, does that mean that every trial lesson punter that comes along has to buy a hi-viz vest?
Again check your facts. There are around 15 high vis jackets for trial lessons (and their families if they would like to be escorted airside to take pics etc)
What constitutes Hi-viz? If I wear a yellow or orange t-shirt, in ordinary daytime conditions I'm every bit as conspicuous as the next hi-viz person.
So you wear Luminous shirts do you? Nice fashion sense. Its probably easier to impose rules to wear these jackets than to argue these inane petty points with people.
And in 35 years of airside aviation activities, i've never been hit by a taxiing aircraft. And neither has anyone else at Barton.
No, doesnt mean it wont ever happen though does it? My house hasn’t burnt down, not any of my neighbours, so lets get rid of our local fire service shall we?
This isn't going to stop me walking into a moving propeller though is it (though I suppose it will make my bits more visible to pick up off the apron)?
Please don't let it STOP you, will you?
The world has gone stark staring, cover-its-a**e, insurance company-driven, politically correct, jobsworth, Barking Mad.
Its a claim culture. I bet you've claimed whip lash in an accident or something like that, giving rise to these stupid rules in the first place because the insurance companies are paying out so much money, this is their way or clawing some back.
How long before I have to buy one for my dog?
Only when on the apron please.
Why can't a respectable, comfortable hi-viz vest be made? One that could possibly double for a fashion item?
For a man that already seems to own a Luminous shirt, fashion sense isn’t really a problem. They are comfortable, I wore one yesterday for 4hrs without issue.
GGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Impression of your dog being killed by a propeller whilst not wearing a high vis vest?
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I venture some comments with trepidation, since people seem to have very strong views on this subject!
Yes, that's probably why "Britain stood alone" during the Second World War! Surely, Bodie, you are not suggesting that people should unquestioningly accept whatever "the authorities" tell them to do?
Not a very pleasant or constructive suggestion, I'm afraid. Perhaps a brief review of some Dale Carnagie principles might be in order:
P.S. For whatever it may be worth, I have never seen anyone wearing any high visibility clothing at small airports here in North America, and we don't seem to have any problems.
Some people just moan about everything. Our great British tradition.
Just wear the bl00dy hi vis and shut up.
#2: Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say "You're wrong".
#4 Begin in a friendly way.
#8 Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
#9 Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
#4 Begin in a friendly way.
#8 Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
#9 Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
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Anyone know how many attended the PFA Rally at Kemble? More people and aircraft than at any other airfield in the UK bar none, and all with airside access.
Some of them weren't even aircrew!
Was it dangerous without high-vis vests?
Just a thought......
Mike
Some of them weren't even aircrew!
Was it dangerous without high-vis vests?
Just a thought......
Mike
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Bodie, I pity you. Take your personal frustrations out on me if it really helps. Otherwise go and get some help (& don't forget your luminous jacket).
Ridiculing me for exposing a ridiculous culture shows you up, not me.
No, I've NEVER made a claim up. Because I'm quite a safe person, I've never had a crunch in a car, therefore have never had to claim or manufacture a claim for insurance. From the sound of it, Bodie seems to think that we all go round claiming for everything. If that's the case, maybe he has, therefore maybe has contributed to this culture.
Points about the USA are very well made. Claim culture is rife there, they invented it. Yet at GA airfields you do not have to wear a HVV.
I repeat the general observation - the over-regulation culture is becoming ever more pervasive.
If it's not fought against, then the grip slowly tightens and we get to the point where we meekly accept every petty rule that tells us when to breathe in and when to breathe out - just because some erk behind a desk in Whitehall, Kingsway or Brussels has had to think of a new rule today.
I am all for safety but I'm all against loss of personal responsibility and personal freedom.
Ridiculing me for exposing a ridiculous culture shows you up, not me.
No, I've NEVER made a claim up. Because I'm quite a safe person, I've never had a crunch in a car, therefore have never had to claim or manufacture a claim for insurance. From the sound of it, Bodie seems to think that we all go round claiming for everything. If that's the case, maybe he has, therefore maybe has contributed to this culture.
Points about the USA are very well made. Claim culture is rife there, they invented it. Yet at GA airfields you do not have to wear a HVV.
I repeat the general observation - the over-regulation culture is becoming ever more pervasive.
If it's not fought against, then the grip slowly tightens and we get to the point where we meekly accept every petty rule that tells us when to breathe in and when to breathe out - just because some erk behind a desk in Whitehall, Kingsway or Brussels has had to think of a new rule today.
I am all for safety but I'm all against loss of personal responsibility and personal freedom.
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Canadian Luscombe
I'll take your comments tongue and cheek manner as my posts so obviously are. Even PoetPilot can see I'm ridiculing him. Mind you, my American friends tell me that Canadians don't have a sense of humour.
I'll take your comments tongue and cheek manner as my posts so obviously are. Even PoetPilot can see I'm ridiculing him. Mind you, my American friends tell me that Canadians don't have a sense of humour.
To wear or not to wear - is a contraversial question
Hmmmmmmmmm ............ certainly provoked some suprisingly dogmatic responses.
I work in the construction industry where hi-viz (as defined by a particular British Standard for reflectivity and so on) is mandated by most sizeable employers and recommended by the HSE, just like hard hats and toe-tectors and goggles and gloves and other things.
Hi-viz started in construction about 20 years ago and provoked much the same reaction as some of those less willing have displayed here. After a while it became accepted and now putting on a high viz vest is as unconscious a reaction as scratching your nuts.
I flew at Barton for a few years (not in the last three or so) and I wholly sympathise with the difficulties where so many aeroplanes, businesses and vehicles .... as well as people just getting to non-aviation business .... are co-mingled. However if I were to the runway side of the tower I would probably wear high viz because it's now become part of my flying culture too. I am delighted that ther have been no accidents and I hope it stays that way forever.
(My recollection is that the last aircraft/person accident report I read was at Manchester (??) with a marshaller who was wearing Hi-Viz - the accident was unrelated to his visibility but a misinterpreted hand signal).
I worked airside at Luton for a couple of years where the biggest hazard was likely to be the shuttle buses and baggage carts but high viz is certainly mandatory and second nature and I wouldn't have been without it. (Downside is that in the terminal the SLF ask you silly questions)
I now have to wear hi-viz at Fairoaks (which in all honesty isn't a bad thing as our aeroplanes are outside the clubhouse but on the opposite side of the taxiway) and because I keep the waistcoat on in the aeroplane also wore it at Sandown the other day (where I did feel rather conspicuous !!!) where with a total lack of other traffic it was certainly un-necessary.
What the British Safety Council/ HSE / CAA can prove about the improvement in statistics in any industry with the use of HV I don't know - but I'll ask my safety man and perhaps report back.
From my point of view - any unnecessary risk eliminated is the better and I will always wear my vest - even changing a tyre or cutting my hedge on a pavement-less road is bloody dangerous sometimes.
What I think I can say with certainty is ... Stand On Me - in 5 years time, you won't even be able to tramp round your own grass strip without wearing a hi-viz vest.
The possibility that it might save you some day makes it worth it in my book and the downside (other than wounded dignities decrying their lack of personal choice) seems so marginal as hardly to be worth worrying about.
Am I becoming over sensitive or are these forums becoming less polite than before ?? .... I don't think such vilification of a poor defenceless Poet is justified .... I am with Dale Carnegie and Canadian Luscombe - it didn't read tongue in cheek to me - still its PPRuNe not a literary society.
DGG
I work in the construction industry where hi-viz (as defined by a particular British Standard for reflectivity and so on) is mandated by most sizeable employers and recommended by the HSE, just like hard hats and toe-tectors and goggles and gloves and other things.
Hi-viz started in construction about 20 years ago and provoked much the same reaction as some of those less willing have displayed here. After a while it became accepted and now putting on a high viz vest is as unconscious a reaction as scratching your nuts.
I flew at Barton for a few years (not in the last three or so) and I wholly sympathise with the difficulties where so many aeroplanes, businesses and vehicles .... as well as people just getting to non-aviation business .... are co-mingled. However if I were to the runway side of the tower I would probably wear high viz because it's now become part of my flying culture too. I am delighted that ther have been no accidents and I hope it stays that way forever.
(My recollection is that the last aircraft/person accident report I read was at Manchester (??) with a marshaller who was wearing Hi-Viz - the accident was unrelated to his visibility but a misinterpreted hand signal).
I worked airside at Luton for a couple of years where the biggest hazard was likely to be the shuttle buses and baggage carts but high viz is certainly mandatory and second nature and I wouldn't have been without it. (Downside is that in the terminal the SLF ask you silly questions)
I now have to wear hi-viz at Fairoaks (which in all honesty isn't a bad thing as our aeroplanes are outside the clubhouse but on the opposite side of the taxiway) and because I keep the waistcoat on in the aeroplane also wore it at Sandown the other day (where I did feel rather conspicuous !!!) where with a total lack of other traffic it was certainly un-necessary.
What the British Safety Council/ HSE / CAA can prove about the improvement in statistics in any industry with the use of HV I don't know - but I'll ask my safety man and perhaps report back.
From my point of view - any unnecessary risk eliminated is the better and I will always wear my vest - even changing a tyre or cutting my hedge on a pavement-less road is bloody dangerous sometimes.
What I think I can say with certainty is ... Stand On Me - in 5 years time, you won't even be able to tramp round your own grass strip without wearing a hi-viz vest.
The possibility that it might save you some day makes it worth it in my book and the downside (other than wounded dignities decrying their lack of personal choice) seems so marginal as hardly to be worth worrying about.
Am I becoming over sensitive or are these forums becoming less polite than before ?? .... I don't think such vilification of a poor defenceless Poet is justified .... I am with Dale Carnegie and Canadian Luscombe - it didn't read tongue in cheek to me - still its PPRuNe not a literary society.
DGG
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It seems that no one is allowed an opinion , it just ends up one big argument, not a discussion. For what it's worth, I gather the makers of these hi viz contraptions assume women don't need to wear them, just try to buy one that fastens on the other side. I have one in my bag, If a particular airfield insists it's worn, so be it, who cares what it looks like. Bet if they made them with Pilot written on the back, everyone would wear them to go out in. 
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Bodie
If you intended to write humorous sarcasm, it did not come across as intended. It looks as though you took an arrogant pill before typing. Hi-viz jackets have their place; I always wear one on the ramp. Lots of trucks and baggage carts out to get you. Not many run over by aircraft. Although seems more common for people to walk/drive into the aircraft. (Paint all a/c Day-Glo!).
On my grass airfield their worth is greatly over valued. If the CAA stated all pilots to wear bone domes I would take the edict more seriously. Just look at how many pilots have died through head injuries. Perhaps the empasis is not placed in the correct direction. Even though I wear a bone dome myself (Yak 52/Chippy), it is personal choice. The decision to wear should be left to the idividuals own risk assesment.
Regards
Wide
If you intended to write humorous sarcasm, it did not come across as intended. It looks as though you took an arrogant pill before typing. Hi-viz jackets have their place; I always wear one on the ramp. Lots of trucks and baggage carts out to get you. Not many run over by aircraft. Although seems more common for people to walk/drive into the aircraft. (Paint all a/c Day-Glo!).
On my grass airfield their worth is greatly over valued. If the CAA stated all pilots to wear bone domes I would take the edict more seriously. Just look at how many pilots have died through head injuries. Perhaps the empasis is not placed in the correct direction. Even though I wear a bone dome myself (Yak 52/Chippy), it is personal choice. The decision to wear should be left to the idividuals own risk assesment.
Regards
Wide
Last edited by Wide-Body; 23rd Jul 2003 at 22:47.
Or is it about status ??????
Maggie... you are most likely right.
When I had an airside badge at Luton ("..must be worn at chest height and with name, photograph and job title clearly visible ...") I'd have killed to get one of the nice stripey ones with AIRCREW on, instead of my construction one.
DGG
When I had an airside badge at Luton ("..must be worn at chest height and with name, photograph and job title clearly visible ...") I'd have killed to get one of the nice stripey ones with AIRCREW on, instead of my construction one.
DGG
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Dave G, no sweat - I've had far worse insults than Bodie's in my time! And it IS pprune, that's the nature of the beast, and the beasties that inhabit it . 
The fun way to protest would seem to be to introduce humour & individualism onto the <spit> vests (I claim no credit whatsoever for this idea, it's come up elsewhere on a List in a galaxy far, far away...).
Does anyone know who the manufacturers of high viz fabrics are? Note: NOT the ugly garments, the fabrics.
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Wide Body has a damn good point.
Bodie, hopefully you DO wear your NATO safety bonedome in your spamcan?
Seriously, there is very good evidence in AAIB reports to suggest that lives can be saved if occupants of ALL light aircraft wear a safety helmet.
Just running into a hedge at touchdown speed, or a flip over on landing, can cause serious head injuries. Just because a bonedome in a 152 looks stupid, doesn't mean to say we shouldnt be wearing one. The RAF do/did in their basic trainers.
On this basis,the CAA could be saving lives and doing a proper job by focussing on where the real dangers lie, as evidenced by accident statistics.
The fun way to protest would seem to be to introduce humour & individualism onto the <spit> vests (I claim no credit whatsoever for this idea, it's come up elsewhere on a List in a galaxy far, far away...).
Does anyone know who the manufacturers of high viz fabrics are? Note: NOT the ugly garments, the fabrics.
**********************************
Wide Body has a damn good point.
Bodie, hopefully you DO wear your NATO safety bonedome in your spamcan?
Seriously, there is very good evidence in AAIB reports to suggest that lives can be saved if occupants of ALL light aircraft wear a safety helmet.
Just running into a hedge at touchdown speed, or a flip over on landing, can cause serious head injuries. Just because a bonedome in a 152 looks stupid, doesn't mean to say we shouldnt be wearing one. The RAF do/did in their basic trainers.
On this basis,the CAA could be saving lives and doing a proper job by focussing on where the real dangers lie, as evidenced by accident statistics.
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Helmets
Oh no, I hope that we don't go down the route of requiring government-certified helmets!
Personally, I have a hard-shell aviation helmet that I wear occasionally (whenever it seems prudent), but I would hate to have Big Brother step in and tell me that I MUST wear it all the time. Especially since they would no doubt require extensive (i.e., expensive) certification tests that would increase the already high prices; and the standards would almost certainly be constantly revised, thus forcing you to periodically buy a new helmet. I can afford to buy a high-vis vest (unnecessary though they are), but I really can't shell out for a helmet every three years or so.
Personally, I have a hard-shell aviation helmet that I wear occasionally (whenever it seems prudent), but I would hate to have Big Brother step in and tell me that I MUST wear it all the time. Especially since they would no doubt require extensive (i.e., expensive) certification tests that would increase the already high prices; and the standards would almost certainly be constantly revised, thus forcing you to periodically buy a new helmet. I can afford to buy a high-vis vest (unnecessary though they are), but I really can't shell out for a helmet every three years or so.
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When skid lids were made compulsary for mopeds, it was considered they looked stupid, now they have been accepted and are the norm and no one thinks anything of them. Maybe one day, bone domes might be introduced for flying light aircraft, then you can all have a gripe about that. Maybe we are all too concerned about our street cred. Poet, don't know the manufactures name of dayglo fabrics, but there's plenty of it in the shops. Are you going to have a hi-viz made to measure? 
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Maggie, no not for me, I would kill any idea of fashion no matter what I was wearing. 
But as an opportunist I shall explore the commercial possibilities of high-viz garments ! I may moan, but I don't look opportunities in the face and turn away 
Why not get your sewing machine out and we could miwwionaires this time next year Wodney...
But as an opportunist I shall explore the commercial possibilities of high-viz garments ! I may moan, but I don't look opportunities in the face and turn away Why not get your sewing machine out and we could miwwionaires this time next year Wodney...
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I seem to remember that the CAA recommendation came about after a pilot was killed during his walkround by a drunken airside vehicle driver (Manchester or Liverpool?).
Personally, I echo the sentiments of some above; have one and use some common sense as to where and when to wear it.
Personally, I echo the sentiments of some above; have one and use some common sense as to where and when to wear it.