The Dreaded Hi-viz vest
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Witchy witchy...!
Come on guys - you've caused Witchy to 'fly off the handle' (boom boom!!).
He feels passionate about it so thats that. Can I please ask anybody who knows Witchy Woo to give us the low down on him.
Does he really really wear one always? Is there any dirt on him? Does he always set his transponder?
I think you've made a 'rod for your own back' (boom boom again!)
now Witchy because you simply daren't be seen ever, without one.
We are watching! The spies are out there!
I have some pretty loud hats and shirts but no high viz vest I'm afraid....
Do aerodromes enforce this vest thing these days?
My personal view ithat they will be of some benefit during the dark or in poor weather. However, I have never, in 27 years held a night rating. If the weather is cr@ppola, I'm in the Rub a Dub.
HP
He feels passionate about it so thats that. Can I please ask anybody who knows Witchy Woo to give us the low down on him.
Does he really really wear one always? Is there any dirt on him? Does he always set his transponder?
I think you've made a 'rod for your own back' (boom boom again!)
now Witchy because you simply daren't be seen ever, without one.
We are watching! The spies are out there!
I have some pretty loud hats and shirts but no high viz vest I'm afraid....
Do aerodromes enforce this vest thing these days?
My personal view ithat they will be of some benefit during the dark or in poor weather. However, I have never, in 27 years held a night rating. If the weather is cr@ppola, I'm in the Rub a Dub.
HP
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This contentious issue seems very easy to resolve to me. I don't have strong opinions either way. The only reason I wouldn't wear one is because I am lazy. So here are my arguments:
If the use of HV jackets gives any potential safety improvement or not, then their low cost pretty much makes the entire issue a no-brainer.
On the other hand, it is quite possible that their use DECREASES safety. If it promotes complacency, then even if they do avoid some accidents due to increased visibility, they could increase the occurance of accidents due to people not taking due care.
It seems a bit like seatbelts in cars to me: IIRC, when they were introduced, the number of deaths in car accidents decreased. But the number of accidents actually increased. The idea of attaching a large metal spike to the steering wheel may well actually have the exact opposite effect...
If the use of HV jackets gives any potential safety improvement or not, then their low cost pretty much makes the entire issue a no-brainer.
On the other hand, it is quite possible that their use DECREASES safety. If it promotes complacency, then even if they do avoid some accidents due to increased visibility, they could increase the occurance of accidents due to people not taking due care.
It seems a bit like seatbelts in cars to me: IIRC, when they were introduced, the number of deaths in car accidents decreased. But the number of accidents actually increased. The idea of attaching a large metal spike to the steering wheel may well actually have the exact opposite effect...
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I've had some what of an epiphany over HI Vis vests after seeing a lass cycling into work wearing Very short shorts a mesh Hi Vis and not a lot else. As for safety, I certainly noticed her! But nearly crashed the car because I had noticed her
A vison of delight, she certainly perked me up this morning
A vison of delight, she certainly perked me up this morning
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Rwy in Sight commented:
I think the point most people are making is that by forcing people to wear a HiViz in all circumstances, you might actually make the situation less safe and cause the death. How? Well, just because it's called HiViz doesn't automatically mean you're highly visible. That requires contrast. Consider wearing a yellow/green HiViz on a grass airfield in front of a yellow plane. Where is the contrast between green, green/yellow and yellow? There isn't any - so you are NOT visible, even though you're wearing a HiViz.
There is a second, even more invidious way a HiViz might cause a death. Joe Pilot is walking about the airfield wearing his HiViz thinking everything is alright, he's visible so no-one will hit him as he walks into a propellor or steps out in front of a car. That's the problem with all enforced safety measures - it makes people think they're invincible, so their own (in)actions make them less safe because they're not thinking about safety.
Don't get me wrong, I think HiViz jackets are a very useful aid to safety in appropriate circumstances. At night they are good, although as they rely on reflecting light, an aircraft taxying without a landing/taxi light won't see you. As a result I always use a torch as well as wearing a HiViz when airside at night. On a bright sunny day against tarmac, HiViz are of questionable use - very good at identifying the legitimate people from the intruders, but not much use at making you visible. On a bright sunny day at a grass airfield I maintain that HiViz are dangerous.
Interesting little anecdote: I refuse to wear a HiViz on sunny days at my home (grass) airfield despite the "rules" that ATC have imposed. Sometimes I get shouted at by ATC for this "transgression" - but only on the days when I'm wearing a black shirt which contrasts nicely with the white aeroplane and the green grass. They ALWAYS ignore me on the days when I'm wearing a white shirt - perhaps they haven't seen me. ATC also usually ignore the people who take the short-cut across the (active) runway wearing a HiViz, but get very animated about the ones wearing street-clothes. Perhaps they haven't seen the ones wearing HiViz jackets
Safety isn't wearing a HiViz, it's about thinking and acting appropriately. Sometimes that means wearing a HiViz, sometimes it means not wearing one.
MD.
I fail to see why people don't like to wear a HI-VIZ vest. The cost is minimal and even just a life is saved it offsets the cost of thousands of vests.
There is a second, even more invidious way a HiViz might cause a death. Joe Pilot is walking about the airfield wearing his HiViz thinking everything is alright, he's visible so no-one will hit him as he walks into a propellor or steps out in front of a car. That's the problem with all enforced safety measures - it makes people think they're invincible, so their own (in)actions make them less safe because they're not thinking about safety.
Don't get me wrong, I think HiViz jackets are a very useful aid to safety in appropriate circumstances. At night they are good, although as they rely on reflecting light, an aircraft taxying without a landing/taxi light won't see you. As a result I always use a torch as well as wearing a HiViz when airside at night. On a bright sunny day against tarmac, HiViz are of questionable use - very good at identifying the legitimate people from the intruders, but not much use at making you visible. On a bright sunny day at a grass airfield I maintain that HiViz are dangerous.
Interesting little anecdote: I refuse to wear a HiViz on sunny days at my home (grass) airfield despite the "rules" that ATC have imposed. Sometimes I get shouted at by ATC for this "transgression" - but only on the days when I'm wearing a black shirt which contrasts nicely with the white aeroplane and the green grass. They ALWAYS ignore me on the days when I'm wearing a white shirt - perhaps they haven't seen me. ATC also usually ignore the people who take the short-cut across the (active) runway wearing a HiViz, but get very animated about the ones wearing street-clothes. Perhaps they haven't seen the ones wearing HiViz jackets
Safety isn't wearing a HiViz, it's about thinking and acting appropriately. Sometimes that means wearing a HiViz, sometimes it means not wearing one.
MD.
MD with you entirely on
I work in the oil industry which is one of the most safety concious buisinesses around. Although hardharts, steel toecapped boots and safety glasses are a requirement pretty much everywhere you go outside the office, there is a lot of time and money spent educating people into THINKING about safety in all their actions.
Forcing people to wear hiviz vests in the average GA environment is a ridiculous step which is being justified by completely spurious "safety" arguments. Strangely enough, when people are manouvering an expensive (usually) aircraft around they pay a damn sight more attention to what's around them than they do whilst driving a car. People wandering around airfields who have just flown in there either know aeroplanes really hurt or they are with somebody (the pilot) who does and should have told them so.
Safety isn't wearing a HiViz, it's about thinking and acting appropriately. Sometimes that means wearing a HiViz, sometimes it means not wearing one.
Forcing people to wear hiviz vests in the average GA environment is a ridiculous step which is being justified by completely spurious "safety" arguments. Strangely enough, when people are manouvering an expensive (usually) aircraft around they pay a damn sight more attention to what's around them than they do whilst driving a car. People wandering around airfields who have just flown in there either know aeroplanes really hurt or they are with somebody (the pilot) who does and should have told them so.
Suave yet Shallow
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I saw somewhere that one airfield had a £10 landing fee if you didn't wear one....and a £5 one if you did wear one...that's the best incentive you can give most pilots.
Tell them they'll save a fiver by wearing one on the walk from the a/c to the cafe....or rather....it'll cost them a fiver NOT to wear one...I imagine a lot of folks would start wearing them then.
(but I agree...getting folks to pay attention & think would be better)
Tell them they'll save a fiver by wearing one on the walk from the a/c to the cafe....or rather....it'll cost them a fiver NOT to wear one...I imagine a lot of folks would start wearing them then.
(but I agree...getting folks to pay attention & think would be better)
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......So there I was, airside at my local airfield prepping my aeroplane, sans dreaded Hi-Viz......350m from nearest taxiway, on grass, and near the fence. Club house window is hurled open, and red ravaged face of club manager pokes out.....
"Oi, Skyyacht.......telephone"
I curtail prepping activities, and enter clubhouse.....pick up the phone....
Me: "Hello"
Voice: (In vexed tone) "Is that the Pilot preflighting November X-Ray?"
Me: "Yes, why?"
Voice: "You're not wearing your high viz jacket!"
Me: "Who is this?"
Voice: "The Tower"
Me: "How do you know I'm not wearing a high viz jacket?"
Voice: (now starting to rant) "I can bloody well see you man!"
Me: "If you can see me from the tower, (800+ metres way) why should I need to wear it?"
Voice: "Expletive deleted.....!)
Me: Smiling, walks back to the aeroplane!
True? a Joke? Could this have happened?
Make your own minds up!
Blue skies!
"Oi, Skyyacht.......telephone"
I curtail prepping activities, and enter clubhouse.....pick up the phone....
Me: "Hello"
Voice: (In vexed tone) "Is that the Pilot preflighting November X-Ray?"
Me: "Yes, why?"
Voice: "You're not wearing your high viz jacket!"
Me: "Who is this?"
Voice: "The Tower"
Me: "How do you know I'm not wearing a high viz jacket?"
Voice: (now starting to rant) "I can bloody well see you man!"
Me: "If you can see me from the tower, (800+ metres way) why should I need to wear it?"
Voice: "Expletive deleted.....!)
Me: Smiling, walks back to the aeroplane!
True? a Joke? Could this have happened?
Make your own minds up!
Blue skies!
Thread Starter
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Wonderful.
Perhaps someone should also explain to him (the Air Traffic Man) that a flapping ungainly hi-viz vest is a danger to life and limb whilst clambering around an aeroplane. Can get caught on all sorts of things.
I wonder if there's a case for sueing the airport/CAA should a calamitous injury arise (far more likely IMHO than being clouted by a light aeroplane).
Though, as an old CFI once told me, "no aeroplane is light if it hits you".
Perhaps someone should also explain to him (the Air Traffic Man) that a flapping ungainly hi-viz vest is a danger to life and limb whilst clambering around an aeroplane. Can get caught on all sorts of things.
I wonder if there's a case for sueing the airport/CAA should a calamitous injury arise (far more likely IMHO than being clouted by a light aeroplane).
Though, as an old CFI once told me, "no aeroplane is light if it hits you".
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Strake has decided that Strake can no longer ignore HI-VIZ requirement at SND.
However, Strake is damned if Strake will wear vest. Strake will wear HI-VIZ belt a la motorcycle......
However, Strake is damned if Strake will wear vest. Strake will wear HI-VIZ belt a la motorcycle......
As I mentioned on a previous thread about these damned vests, I think I'll take to wearing my offshore nomex overalls in eye searing orange (easier to spot if you fall in the oggin) and see if anybody asks me to wear a hiviz vest then.
SKYYACHT it does sound awfully believable.....
topcat450 if the fiver differential was explained to me whilst at the fuel pumps say, before strolling to the clubhouse, I would be VERY tempted to get back into the old aeroplane and disappear into the wild blue yonder and let the airfield look up my address on G-INFO and send me an invoice.
I've managed to work in some extremely hostile environments over the 30 years I've spent in gainful employment without the need for nannying and I deeply resent having silly rules imposed upon me by unthinking numpties. Rant mode OFF.
PS Having a flapping vest on while hand starting an aeroplane is a REALLY smart thing to do
SKYYACHT it does sound awfully believable.....
topcat450 if the fiver differential was explained to me whilst at the fuel pumps say, before strolling to the clubhouse, I would be VERY tempted to get back into the old aeroplane and disappear into the wild blue yonder and let the airfield look up my address on G-INFO and send me an invoice.
I've managed to work in some extremely hostile environments over the 30 years I've spent in gainful employment without the need for nannying and I deeply resent having silly rules imposed upon me by unthinking numpties. Rant mode OFF.
PS Having a flapping vest on while hand starting an aeroplane is a REALLY smart thing to do
Pity the poor air2000 cabin crew...
our girls and boys have recently been issued with a shocking new pink uniform.
They still have to wear hi-viz vests, even though it reduces their conspicuity!!
our girls and boys have recently been issued with a shocking new pink uniform.
They still have to wear hi-viz vests, even though it reduces their conspicuity!!
Last edited by BRL; 17th Aug 2003 at 22:54.
I am not against the use of high vis vests but to insist of having to do so at somewhere like Barton seems to be bureacracy gone mad.
Contrast this with the situation at a Midlands GA airfield several years ago where planning permission was given to build a new housing estate just off the end of the runway on the climbout requiring a climbing turn at about 100 ft agl now!! This despite a public enquiry and objections raised by the aerodrome operator.
Why do the authorities go overboard on high vis vests and yet are quite happy to ignore other factors which carry a much greater potential risk to the safety of pilots and the public?
Contrast this with the situation at a Midlands GA airfield several years ago where planning permission was given to build a new housing estate just off the end of the runway on the climbout requiring a climbing turn at about 100 ft agl now!! This despite a public enquiry and objections raised by the aerodrome operator.
Why do the authorities go overboard on high vis vests and yet are quite happy to ignore other factors which carry a much greater potential risk to the safety of pilots and the public?
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Why do the authorities go overboard on high vis vests and yet are quite happy to ignore other factors which carry a much greater potential risk to the safety of pilots and the public?
I'm not sure it was 'The Authorities' (ie CAA or HSE) that insisted on bin-man's jackets at Barton. That daft missive might have come from elsewhere (please let me know if you know different).
There are some folks with very odd ideas about. The problems arise when they get into a postion of power foist their silly ideas onto other people.
SSD
I'm not sure it was 'The Authorities' (ie CAA or HSE) that insisted on bin-man's jackets at Barton. That daft missive might have come from elsewhere (please let me know if you know different).
There are some folks with very odd ideas about. The problems arise when they get into a postion of power foist their silly ideas onto other people.
SSD