Women in Aviation
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Who cares? ;-)
Age: 74
Posts: 676
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Women in Aviation
no, flying is not just for men, just as it's not just " for the birds"! 
Picking up on a discussion in the thread "Pink Headsets" (if you haven't read it yet, your missing something!) I've decided to start a new thread about women in aviation. We are still much in the minority and there are many reasons for it. Questions that arise are:
why don't more women fly?
do men really think women shouldn't be flying, that it's only a man's world? (and don't come to me with the expression, if God meant for women to fly, he would have made the skies pink! ääääh, sorry Pink Aviator, no pun intended!
)
what kind of problems did you as a woman experience in your training?
do you have the feeling, that you had no, or very little, support from your fellow flight instructors and/or buddies?
what got you started in flying?
how do you manage family and flying?
does Hubby fly too?
oh, there are many more questions, but these may give a good start for a discussion.
I, too, will add my experiences, but I want to get this thread started. So ladies, get out your keyboards and type away!!!
Westy
Picking up on a discussion in the thread "Pink Headsets" (if you haven't read it yet, your missing something!) I've decided to start a new thread about women in aviation. We are still much in the minority and there are many reasons for it. Questions that arise are:
why don't more women fly?
do men really think women shouldn't be flying, that it's only a man's world? (and don't come to me with the expression, if God meant for women to fly, he would have made the skies pink! ääääh, sorry Pink Aviator, no pun intended!
)what kind of problems did you as a woman experience in your training?
do you have the feeling, that you had no, or very little, support from your fellow flight instructors and/or buddies?
what got you started in flying?
how do you manage family and flying?
does Hubby fly too?
oh, there are many more questions, but these may give a good start for a discussion.
I, too, will add my experiences, but I want to get this thread started. So ladies, get out your keyboards and type away!!!
Westy
Simplicate and Add Lightness
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: EGSG, mainly
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK - As you asked for men's comments too - I'll take the bait
I don't agree that many of the 'issues' Pinky have encountered are anything to do with being a 'woman in aviation'. And I feel it could be argued that you are being sexist by equating the burden of single parenthood with womanhood...
At both of the flying schools I went to there were a fair smattering of female instructors, and one of the senior ones at Stapleford is a woman. So there are plenty of good role models around, and have been since Ms Earhart did her stuff 60-odd years ago.
Taking your specific questions:
Why don't more people fly?
I hope you're not seriously asking that.
Were they any different to the blokes?
Ha! You should some of the laddish instructors fighting to help out any female students at most UK flying schools 
Good question, how on earth do I juggle all these expectations and demands everyone places on my time?
OK - I don't think I'm being at all sexist here - what I'm trying to say is that we all have problems with the committment involved in getting that yucky brown licence. Everyone has their own issues, and it's over-simplifying things to claim that women have one set of problems and men and have another.
I'm sure that women face a bigger challenge than men in professional flying - but that discussion doesn't belong in this forum.
Yours in equality,
IA.
I don't agree that many of the 'issues' Pinky have encountered are anything to do with being a 'woman in aviation'. And I feel it could be argued that you are being sexist by equating the burden of single parenthood with womanhood...
At both of the flying schools I went to there were a fair smattering of female instructors, and one of the senior ones at Stapleford is a woman. So there are plenty of good role models around, and have been since Ms Earhart did her stuff 60-odd years ago.
Taking your specific questions:
why don't more women fly?
do men really think women shouldn't be flying, that it's only a man's world?
what kind of problems did you as a woman experience in your training?
do you have the feeling, that you had no, or very little, support from your fellow flight instructors and/or buddies?
how do you manage family and flying?
does Hubby fly too?
OK - I don't think I'm being at all sexist here - what I'm trying to say is that we all have problems with the committment involved in getting that yucky brown licence. Everyone has their own issues, and it's over-simplifying things to claim that women have one set of problems and men and have another.
I'm sure that women face a bigger challenge than men in professional flying - but that discussion doesn't belong in this forum.
Yours in equality,
IA.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't fly , not through a desire not to but because I have a mortgage and a distinct lack of time however I am very much a women in aviation
My experiences are very different from those experienced by Whirlybird. I am an Air traffic Control Officer (ATCO) and can sincerely say I have never experienced any discrimination because of my gender, we undergo the same selection process, training and have the same opportunities to rise up the promotion ladder if that is what we choose to do. Our salary scales are exactly the same , and I have never ever in the workplace had any form of discrimination against me because of my gender. At my current unit there are only 4 ladies, 2 of which are ATCOs 1 an ATSA and 1 an engineer, i would reckon they would also say exactly the same as myself. We are unusually light in Female staff at my unit but other units it is very different with a much higher percentage of Ladies.
I have never had any problems from any male pilots either, or at my local flying club where I am always made to feel very welcome.
Have I simply been lucky, I don't think so . I have in the past experienced discrimination in my army days, the discrimination came from those of an older generation. Perhaps that is where the problem has been. Certainly the men who are of the same age group as myself have never even uttered anything which I could vaguely describe as against women in aviation.
Why arn't there more women , I don't really know, Aircraft simply do not appeal to a large section of the population. I have no interest in motorbikes for example I find then dull.
What can we do to make it more appealing, it is up to those of us already in it to show that its a great place to be, and bemoaning that we suffer discrimination certainly wouldn't attract many more into it would it.
My experiences are very different from those experienced by Whirlybird. I am an Air traffic Control Officer (ATCO) and can sincerely say I have never experienced any discrimination because of my gender, we undergo the same selection process, training and have the same opportunities to rise up the promotion ladder if that is what we choose to do. Our salary scales are exactly the same , and I have never ever in the workplace had any form of discrimination against me because of my gender. At my current unit there are only 4 ladies, 2 of which are ATCOs 1 an ATSA and 1 an engineer, i would reckon they would also say exactly the same as myself. We are unusually light in Female staff at my unit but other units it is very different with a much higher percentage of Ladies.
I have never had any problems from any male pilots either, or at my local flying club where I am always made to feel very welcome.
Have I simply been lucky, I don't think so . I have in the past experienced discrimination in my army days, the discrimination came from those of an older generation. Perhaps that is where the problem has been. Certainly the men who are of the same age group as myself have never even uttered anything which I could vaguely describe as against women in aviation.
Why arn't there more women , I don't really know, Aircraft simply do not appeal to a large section of the population. I have no interest in motorbikes for example I find then dull.
What can we do to make it more appealing, it is up to those of us already in it to show that its a great place to be, and bemoaning that we suffer discrimination certainly wouldn't attract many more into it would it.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why don't you join the British Women Pilots Association?
Check out their website on http://www.bwpa.demon.co.uk/
Check out their website on http://www.bwpa.demon.co.uk/
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Westwind,
Full marks for starting this! However, in several years as a PPRuNer, every thread I've seen on this subject has degenerated into prejudice and flaming. So let's hope this one can prove the exception.
I've written about this at some length on pink aviator's thread; I'm not going to repeat myself here. But to answer a few points which have come up....
In Altissiumus,
No, there are NOT "plenty of good role models around"; there are exceedingly few. 6% of PPLs are female, and under 3% of commercial pilots. These numbers have been about the same for years; check the CAA website's statistics if you want details...I'm not making it up. While you can't get it from the official stats, I gather I'm one of about A DOZEN female helicopter instructors in the UK! Bizarre, I call that. I barely met any women PPLs while I was training, and no instructors. It depends where you live, with numbers like that. I know of one flying school owned and run by a woman, where the f/w and rotary CFIs are both female, and there's one other part time female instructor too. They have around 50% of female students, and I can honestly say it's the only flying school where I've felt completely at home and am treated normally. That says something in itself, don't you think?
Yes, some men DO think women shouldn't be flying; do a search for old threads on this subject on PPRuNe, if the topics are still possible to get at. And to answer a later comment of yours, the prejudice, or sheer disbelief, gets LESS as you go further, and appears to be virtually non-existent in commercial aviation, in my albeit limited experience. It's at PPL level and among the general public that you get most of it.
Yes, women DO tend to have different problems to the blokes, as I discovered when I joined the BWPA, and found I was normal, not unique. A lot of it seems to come down to women tending (not always) to lack confidence...comes of having been told they can't do things from an early age. Young male instructors, used to often over-confident men, can put them down further, with often catastrophic results. As with all generalisations, there are exceptions, but I've experienced it, seen it, and heard about it... all quite a lot.
Of course everyone finds it hard to get a PPL. It isn't easy. But women do tend to have different problems. Equality is great, but it doesn't mean hiding your head in the sand.
And once when I brought this up on this forum some years ago, another woman was dead against what I was saying, and it appeared to be because she didn't want to upset the men on the forum!!! Nothing new in that; women have been tentatively accepted in areas that are predominantly male for years, but only by "being one of the lads", and keeping quiet about that nasty and uncool subject - prejudice. But you see, I don't do that. I say it how I see it. And if I'm not liked for it, tough. And often I'm not, by either men, who don't want these things pointed out, or by women, who fear a male backlash.
Full marks for starting this! However, in several years as a PPRuNer, every thread I've seen on this subject has degenerated into prejudice and flaming. So let's hope this one can prove the exception.
I've written about this at some length on pink aviator's thread; I'm not going to repeat myself here. But to answer a few points which have come up....
In Altissiumus,
No, there are NOT "plenty of good role models around"; there are exceedingly few. 6% of PPLs are female, and under 3% of commercial pilots. These numbers have been about the same for years; check the CAA website's statistics if you want details...I'm not making it up. While you can't get it from the official stats, I gather I'm one of about A DOZEN female helicopter instructors in the UK! Bizarre, I call that. I barely met any women PPLs while I was training, and no instructors. It depends where you live, with numbers like that. I know of one flying school owned and run by a woman, where the f/w and rotary CFIs are both female, and there's one other part time female instructor too. They have around 50% of female students, and I can honestly say it's the only flying school where I've felt completely at home and am treated normally. That says something in itself, don't you think?
Yes, some men DO think women shouldn't be flying; do a search for old threads on this subject on PPRuNe, if the topics are still possible to get at. And to answer a later comment of yours, the prejudice, or sheer disbelief, gets LESS as you go further, and appears to be virtually non-existent in commercial aviation, in my albeit limited experience. It's at PPL level and among the general public that you get most of it.
Yes, women DO tend to have different problems to the blokes, as I discovered when I joined the BWPA, and found I was normal, not unique. A lot of it seems to come down to women tending (not always) to lack confidence...comes of having been told they can't do things from an early age. Young male instructors, used to often over-confident men, can put them down further, with often catastrophic results. As with all generalisations, there are exceptions, but I've experienced it, seen it, and heard about it... all quite a lot.
Of course everyone finds it hard to get a PPL. It isn't easy. But women do tend to have different problems. Equality is great, but it doesn't mean hiding your head in the sand.
And once when I brought this up on this forum some years ago, another woman was dead against what I was saying, and it appeared to be because she didn't want to upset the men on the forum!!! Nothing new in that; women have been tentatively accepted in areas that are predominantly male for years, but only by "being one of the lads", and keeping quiet about that nasty and uncool subject - prejudice. But you see, I don't do that. I say it how I see it. And if I'm not liked for it, tough. And often I'm not, by either men, who don't want these things pointed out, or by women, who fear a male backlash.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Down South
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All,
Great idea for a post - intresting topic.
Just wanted to say, that when I was learning, I had a female insturctor and she was one of the best I had..... and now is off flying large aircraft that go further and faster than you or I.... so it can be done.
Also, my gf flies, and got into around the same time as me. However, when she was learnig, on an RAF Flying Scholarship - she was one of only two girls on the cource. Now, we regually argue about who is the best, and on the record it is of cource, me, but, if you promise not to tell her - I do think her aerobatics are a lot slicker than mine!
EKKL I presume your comments are in jest - it that sort of attitude which puts off the fair sex from joining the club..... if you are good enough, safe enough, and have the desire - then do it.
Best.
FW
P.S. Mile high club - lets be honest, guys just want to go to sleep after - someone has to fly us home!
Great idea for a post - intresting topic.
Just wanted to say, that when I was learning, I had a female insturctor and she was one of the best I had..... and now is off flying large aircraft that go further and faster than you or I.... so it can be done.
Also, my gf flies, and got into around the same time as me. However, when she was learnig, on an RAF Flying Scholarship - she was one of only two girls on the cource. Now, we regually argue about who is the best, and on the record it is of cource, me, but, if you promise not to tell her - I do think her aerobatics are a lot slicker than mine!
EKKL I presume your comments are in jest - it that sort of attitude which puts off the fair sex from joining the club..... if you are good enough, safe enough, and have the desire - then do it.
Best.
FW
P.S. Mile high club - lets be honest, guys just want to go to sleep after - someone has to fly us home!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Who cares? ;-)
Age: 74
Posts: 676
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hallo Whirlybird,
hardly has this thread been started and those "smart" type of comments you mentioned start up.
What's with it you guys? I, too, hope some of those comments weren't meant serious....
@EKKL
does your girlfriend/wife know how you feel about women?
@ t'ant natural
thanks for the tip but I'm already a member of the German women pilots organisation. When I first joined it was comforting to find that the problems I had encountered were not just ME.
One example out of my experience... I used to belong to a flying club that had many women, well..let's say they had a higher percentage then most. Women were generally accepted. I did glider flying as well as single engine and used to tow the gliders there with a PA 18 (great fun!). It came the time I went for instructor training. After passing all the exams and check ride, I wanted our head instructor to take me on for my observation time. Weeks went by, I heard nothing from him. Months went by, still nothing. In the meantime I had started training at a different school. After a year and a half I finally had the chance to confront him about it... he hesitated in answering then stated: " I don't sign up women instructors!" and he was serious! I couldn't believe it and told our clubs vice president, who promised to talk to him. Nothing happened! They ignored the whole thing! needless to say I left that club and I do my flying now elsewhere. Since then I have my CPL and I was head instructor for 2 years at my present club (I only quit that job because of time-pressure in my normal job and I was lucky to find someone to take it over).
I know many women who fly and ALL of them have similar stories to tell. I ask you all, why is that? After all, we women don't discriminate against you guys!
Westy
hardly has this thread been started and those "smart" type of comments you mentioned start up.
What's with it you guys? I, too, hope some of those comments weren't meant serious....
@EKKL
does your girlfriend/wife know how you feel about women?
@ t'ant natural
thanks for the tip but I'm already a member of the German women pilots organisation. When I first joined it was comforting to find that the problems I had encountered were not just ME.
One example out of my experience... I used to belong to a flying club that had many women, well..let's say they had a higher percentage then most. Women were generally accepted. I did glider flying as well as single engine and used to tow the gliders there with a PA 18 (great fun!). It came the time I went for instructor training. After passing all the exams and check ride, I wanted our head instructor to take me on for my observation time. Weeks went by, I heard nothing from him. Months went by, still nothing. In the meantime I had started training at a different school. After a year and a half I finally had the chance to confront him about it... he hesitated in answering then stated: " I don't sign up women instructors!" and he was serious! I couldn't believe it and told our clubs vice president, who promised to talk to him. Nothing happened! They ignored the whole thing! needless to say I left that club and I do my flying now elsewhere. Since then I have my CPL and I was head instructor for 2 years at my present club (I only quit that job because of time-pressure in my normal job and I was lucky to find someone to take it over).
I know many women who fly and ALL of them have similar stories to tell. I ask you all, why is that? After all, we women don't discriminate against you guys!
Westy
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Io
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Women in aviation
Whirlybird said,
What percentage of women are interested in aviation compared to men? How many build models, photograph aircraft, wear anoraks?
Yes there are inequalities between the sexes, but harping on about it simply irritates and strengthens existing prejudices.
I received tuition from a female instructor during my PPL training, the school I learnt from is part owned and run by a woman (pilot). I have never heard anyone make reference to their ability based upon their gender, had I done so I would have complained accordingly.
As for hiding one's head in the sand; My wife is a full time accountant, we have children and two horses. We manage to cope wthout any additional burdens being placed on either of us. I understand that there are men out there who will not accept women as equals, but they are a dying breed.
Let's start looking forward and refrain from reinforcing streotypes that have no place in the 21st Century.
As I always tell people, "I wear the trousers in my marriage - when my wife tells me I can".
6% of PPLs are female, and under 3% of commercial pilots
Yes there are inequalities between the sexes, but harping on about it simply irritates and strengthens existing prejudices.
I received tuition from a female instructor during my PPL training, the school I learnt from is part owned and run by a woman (pilot). I have never heard anyone make reference to their ability based upon their gender, had I done so I would have complained accordingly.
As for hiding one's head in the sand; My wife is a full time accountant, we have children and two horses. We manage to cope wthout any additional burdens being placed on either of us. I understand that there are men out there who will not accept women as equals, but they are a dying breed.
Let's start looking forward and refrain from reinforcing streotypes that have no place in the 21st Century.
As I always tell people, "I wear the trousers in my marriage - when my wife tells me I can".
Resident Brewer
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: .
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WestWind - thanks for the thread, and for the tip about the pink headsets one. Just spent 2 hours reading through it !
EKKL - EVEN if it was in jest, that reflects on you, not women. There are no words that can express my contempt.
In Altissimus - it's my experience that we only notice prejudice if it is directed against us. We tend not to notice if we are not the victims. As a woman who has recently gained a PPL, I can tell you I've experienced plenty of discrimination from the men around me.
I'm a scientist with more degrees than the whole of the flying staff put together, and no shortage of confidence or assertive attitude, and there are still blokes who treat me like a child. Only once though.
Some examples - I've been standing at the desk reading NOTAMS when one of the dinosaours rushes in and tells me the most appaling sexist joke making fun of violence against women, and then rushes out again. He made a special trip into the clubhouse to tell the joke, just because he saw me. Did it make him feel more like a man? And what of the males around me who looked embarrassedly at their feet but didn't protest? Then there was the instructor who criticised my radio call (which was correct procedure) to all and sundry as "women's logic", and the very next lesson proceeded to make the same call himself. Or how about the umpteen times I've been asked if my husband is a pilot (No - I, ME, I'm the one who decided to learn to fly. So I would only learn if my husband told me to - give me a break!). Or the times I've got out of the left hand seat and the refuellers have approached my husband, who got out of the right hand seat, and asked HIM how much fuel HE wanted. Don't they know which seat a C172 is flown from? I could go on, but you get the picture.
And that's the stuff that's directed against a woman who decided to learn to fly, and didn't give a stuff about who she upset to achieve it. How many more are put off before they get that far?
And finally - if one more patronising
tells me "I must be brave" to learn to fly, I'll scream. They never seem to say that to the blokes.
/Rant over.
EKKL - EVEN if it was in jest, that reflects on you, not women. There are no words that can express my contempt.
In Altissimus - it's my experience that we only notice prejudice if it is directed against us. We tend not to notice if we are not the victims. As a woman who has recently gained a PPL, I can tell you I've experienced plenty of discrimination from the men around me.
I'm a scientist with more degrees than the whole of the flying staff put together, and no shortage of confidence or assertive attitude, and there are still blokes who treat me like a child. Only once though.
Some examples - I've been standing at the desk reading NOTAMS when one of the dinosaours rushes in and tells me the most appaling sexist joke making fun of violence against women, and then rushes out again. He made a special trip into the clubhouse to tell the joke, just because he saw me. Did it make him feel more like a man? And what of the males around me who looked embarrassedly at their feet but didn't protest? Then there was the instructor who criticised my radio call (which was correct procedure) to all and sundry as "women's logic", and the very next lesson proceeded to make the same call himself. Or how about the umpteen times I've been asked if my husband is a pilot (No - I, ME, I'm the one who decided to learn to fly. So I would only learn if my husband told me to - give me a break!). Or the times I've got out of the left hand seat and the refuellers have approached my husband, who got out of the right hand seat, and asked HIM how much fuel HE wanted. Don't they know which seat a C172 is flown from? I could go on, but you get the picture.
And that's the stuff that's directed against a woman who decided to learn to fly, and didn't give a stuff about who she upset to achieve it. How many more are put off before they get that far?
And finally - if one more patronising
tells me "I must be brave" to learn to fly, I'll scream. They never seem to say that to the blokes./Rant over.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 1,294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<preparing to be dive-bombed>
Could it be the lack of understanding of the male of the species sene of humour that make some suspect they are being discriminated against. Having always worked in male dominated occupations I find that often an affectionate joke to them may be seen by some women as insulting where there was never meant to be an insult.
As for not seeing discrimination simply because you don't get it , I disagree . I would immediately see if someone was being sexist , or racist etc.
Can I ask if those figures for women commercial pilots are world-wide as there seem to be a lot more in the cockpit than just 3%.
I am sure we will see more and more coming through , girls in schools now realise that nothing can stop them if they want something.
If we stop doing something as well because we can't take the heat of banter at a flying club then we have ourselves to blame. I always find joining in makes it so much more fun.
Ok i'm a fairly confident person so maybe that is easier for me to do than others but I think if you were to ask any man they probably get something similar happen to them when they first join the flying club.
Could it be the lack of understanding of the male of the species sene of humour that make some suspect they are being discriminated against. Having always worked in male dominated occupations I find that often an affectionate joke to them may be seen by some women as insulting where there was never meant to be an insult.
As for not seeing discrimination simply because you don't get it , I disagree . I would immediately see if someone was being sexist , or racist etc.
Can I ask if those figures for women commercial pilots are world-wide as there seem to be a lot more in the cockpit than just 3%.
I am sure we will see more and more coming through , girls in schools now realise that nothing can stop them if they want something.
If we stop doing something as well because we can't take the heat of banter at a flying club then we have ourselves to blame. I always find joining in makes it so much more fun.
Ok i'm a fairly confident person so maybe that is easier for me to do than others but I think if you were to ask any man they probably get something similar happen to them when they first join the flying club.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Livin de island life
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Getting very interesting.....
Because there are so few of us in aviation, and I don't think we flaunt ourselves much, these things rarely get said.
I have never suffered gender discrimination (is that PC enough?) in aviation - but I didn't in engineering, motorcycling or computer programming either. I think it's all down to attitude; if you are in there, doing it, you generally get the respect. I also agree with Flower - if you don't take the comments seriously they go away.
Whirlybird has it right on the money - the more experience a male aviator has, the more he is used to female company in the cockpit.
Mr FF does fly; in fact, that's how we met (no, he wasn't my instructor). Makes life much easier IMHO - no quarrelling about spending time or money on flying toys....
I can't ever remember a put-down or prejudice with respect to flying. Even in South Africa (that hotbed of MCPiggery) I was treated as "one of the boys" and not left behind with the wives. Non-pilots often ask me if I am a flight attendant (when I say that I met Mr FF at flight school) but I don't take offence.
The confidence thing strikes a chord. I know I have a confidence problem; it makes me a very conservative pilot. Realistically I know I can do it but the doubts still linger. You rarely meet a male pilot who doubts himself! Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing.....
All that said I must admit to not participating in the flying club scene - maybe that is the problem area?
The fact that not many women learn to fly is probably just down to proximity - if you aren't introduced to little aeroplanes, you rarely understand that you could fly them. Male pilots take their mates flying and let them "have a go" while the wives, if invited at all, sit in the back. I have only ever taken one woman flying who didn't enjoy it - she had a sinus problem and couldn't do altitude. Mostly they are fascinated and thrilled to try it.
Think about computers - not so long ago they were toys for boys, technical things. Now they are common tools and no-one is surprised if a woman has one!
I have never suffered gender discrimination (is that PC enough?) in aviation - but I didn't in engineering, motorcycling or computer programming either. I think it's all down to attitude; if you are in there, doing it, you generally get the respect. I also agree with Flower - if you don't take the comments seriously they go away.
Whirlybird has it right on the money - the more experience a male aviator has, the more he is used to female company in the cockpit.
Mr FF does fly; in fact, that's how we met (no, he wasn't my instructor). Makes life much easier IMHO - no quarrelling about spending time or money on flying toys....
I can't ever remember a put-down or prejudice with respect to flying. Even in South Africa (that hotbed of MCPiggery) I was treated as "one of the boys" and not left behind with the wives. Non-pilots often ask me if I am a flight attendant (when I say that I met Mr FF at flight school) but I don't take offence.
The confidence thing strikes a chord. I know I have a confidence problem; it makes me a very conservative pilot. Realistically I know I can do it but the doubts still linger. You rarely meet a male pilot who doubts himself! Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing.....
All that said I must admit to not participating in the flying club scene - maybe that is the problem area?
The fact that not many women learn to fly is probably just down to proximity - if you aren't introduced to little aeroplanes, you rarely understand that you could fly them. Male pilots take their mates flying and let them "have a go" while the wives, if invited at all, sit in the back. I have only ever taken one woman flying who didn't enjoy it - she had a sinus problem and couldn't do altitude. Mostly they are fascinated and thrilled to try it.
Think about computers - not so long ago they were toys for boys, technical things. Now they are common tools and no-one is surprised if a woman has one!
Simplicate and Add Lightness
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: EGSG, mainly
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I didn't really want to contribute again so soon - but here goes...
Whirly,
I take your point entirely about the quantity (not quality) of role models - maybe I've been 'over-exposed'! Strangely - or not - I looked around my City office while reading your post, and only about 5% of my colleagues are women. Which leads me to wonder...
Maybe one of the underlying reasons that there are so few women in GA is that it is a stupidly expensive hobby to get into and, in our society, women are undoubtedly still discriminated against financially.
PFLsAgain,
Like Flower, I disagree about the perception of discrimination; what makes you think I have not been trained in such matters? Besides, nowhere in my post did I deny that gender discrimination exists in GA; you are choosing to interpret it that way though.
I'm not at all surprised by your real world example, but please don't imagine that just because I'm a white male I am incapable of being discriminated against.
By the way - that bit about the bravery - I think we all get that
Flyingfemme,
I agree with nearly everything you said, except about male pilots expressing self doubt. I think the truth is that some kinds of male pilot would never do that in front of a woman, I assure you they do to each other!
Whirly,
I take your point entirely about the quantity (not quality) of role models - maybe I've been 'over-exposed'! Strangely - or not - I looked around my City office while reading your post, and only about 5% of my colleagues are women. Which leads me to wonder...
Maybe one of the underlying reasons that there are so few women in GA is that it is a stupidly expensive hobby to get into and, in our society, women are undoubtedly still discriminated against financially.
PFLsAgain,
Like Flower, I disagree about the perception of discrimination; what makes you think I have not been trained in such matters? Besides, nowhere in my post did I deny that gender discrimination exists in GA; you are choosing to interpret it that way though.
I'm not at all surprised by your real world example, but please don't imagine that just because I'm a white male I am incapable of being discriminated against.
By the way - that bit about the bravery - I think we all get that
Flyingfemme,
I agree with nearly everything you said, except about male pilots expressing self doubt. I think the truth is that some kinds of male pilot would never do that in front of a woman, I assure you they do to each other!
PINKS WORLD THROUGH ROSE COLOURED SPECS
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Happy and content again back in the house on the beach ,baking on the AGA and flying around my highland home . emmmmmmmm
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
West wind,,a great start,and some provocative comments.
I personaly ,hav't met with any predudice,but i have only been flying since easter.
I must be odd but i do not actually mind being in a minority,in a male dominated field.
I am not competing with them ,to be better,to try and get higher exam marks or even superior plane handleing skills.
I just want to prove to myself that i can achieve ,the seemingly difficult operations, that have to be aquired and remembered inorder to be a safe and consistent piolt.
I do how ever get a buzz if i answer a question right ,before a man, a secret smug feeling ,that girls are great to.
I am actually a whole load of contradictions about what i want men to be and women to be, but as time goes on and i have had to do "male " things, i realise that I can do them and men shouldn't have always been puton a pedastool,by me .
I'LL stop and think for a while as i'm not very good at putting together constructive aurgument,and am likley to say something contrevertial.
I just wanted to add my support for your thread WEST WING,
and thought WHIRLYBIRD, made some good points.
I've just remembered,I heard one man had said about me (behind my back ofcourse)
That i was not suitably dressed for flying,
ummp, well i dress as i feel comfortable,it is different sometimes and excentric,but thats me ,and i do not need to pretend i'm something i'm not.
PINK-AVIATOR
I personaly ,hav't met with any predudice,but i have only been flying since easter.
I must be odd but i do not actually mind being in a minority,in a male dominated field.
I am not competing with them ,to be better,to try and get higher exam marks or even superior plane handleing skills.
I just want to prove to myself that i can achieve ,the seemingly difficult operations, that have to be aquired and remembered inorder to be a safe and consistent piolt.
I do how ever get a buzz if i answer a question right ,before a man, a secret smug feeling ,that girls are great to.
I am actually a whole load of contradictions about what i want men to be and women to be, but as time goes on and i have had to do "male " things, i realise that I can do them and men shouldn't have always been puton a pedastool,by me .
I'LL stop and think for a while as i'm not very good at putting together constructive aurgument,and am likley to say something contrevertial.
I just wanted to add my support for your thread WEST WING,
and thought WHIRLYBIRD, made some good points.
I've just remembered,I heard one man had said about me (behind my back ofcourse)
That i was not suitably dressed for flying,
ummp, well i dress as i feel comfortable,it is different sometimes and excentric,but thats me ,and i do not need to pretend i'm something i'm not.
PINK-AVIATOR
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: England
Posts: 510
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does anyone have a definitive reference to the percentage of female pilots before the second world war? I ask because I remember reading somewhere that it was a much higher percentage than now.
My mother, now in her 80's, still bemoans the fact that her brother was taken to see Alan Cobham's Flying Circus but despite all her begging, her father wouldn't take her along too. She and her brother were fascinated by flying and the exploits of Amy Johnson et al. She would have loved to learn to fly but never felt she had the opportunity. Her brother did learn, paid for by the RAF, but unfortunately his Lancaster was shot down in 1944.
Unusually, my mother enjoys flying in really rough weather; the worse the turbulence and the weather, the more she enjoys it. She is very frail now, but still wants to go flying.
My mother, now in her 80's, still bemoans the fact that her brother was taken to see Alan Cobham's Flying Circus but despite all her begging, her father wouldn't take her along too. She and her brother were fascinated by flying and the exploits of Amy Johnson et al. She would have loved to learn to fly but never felt she had the opportunity. Her brother did learn, paid for by the RAF, but unfortunately his Lancaster was shot down in 1944.
Unusually, my mother enjoys flying in really rough weather; the worse the turbulence and the weather, the more she enjoys it. She is very frail now, but still wants to go flying.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Not wishing to up end the apple cart so to speak but you guys don't know what it is like to be a female and learning to fly.
I had one instructor who told me "if i did the next engine failurs correctly we could land and he would reward me under the trees at the end of the paddock'. I changed schools.
We not asking for anyhing extra just to be given the same chance as you guys. I now operate my own school and employ instructors,
One other thing be careful what you say to your students, I employed the instructor that sent me solo for 6 months
I had one instructor who told me "if i did the next engine failurs correctly we could land and he would reward me under the trees at the end of the paddock'. I changed schools.
We not asking for anyhing extra just to be given the same chance as you guys. I now operate my own school and employ instructors,
One other thing be careful what you say to your students, I employed the instructor that sent me solo for 6 months
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well done Westy....
...for starting what is proving to be an extremely interesting discussion!
Ah yes, the don't-talk-about-it-cos-the-guys-don't-like-it attitude. I know, talking about it makes some people feel uncomfortable, doesn't it? Now, I wonder why. 
And I refuse to shut up just because people don't like it; these are important issues which need to be aired.
There are two issues here (at least!) There is whether one experiences prejudice, and how you react to it if you do. A woman working in a male orientated industry (can't remember if it was cars or engineering) said to me once that you have to be one of the lads, but be careful not to lose your femininity. My first reaction was to panic and wonder how I achieved that balancing act; followed almost instantly by the thought: "Why the hell should I?" Now, I suspect some women do this naturally, and probably therefore get accepted and liked. Others decide to do it, and there's nothing wrong with that. But some of us either can't or won't. Why should we? What's wrong with being ourselves? Why should we have to worry all the time about what the guys think? Yet...this is what many women do, all the time. But no-one should have to change the way they are, aside from a modicum of consideration for other people and society's conventions. And that applies equally to men in female orientated fields...I suspect male ballet dancers have a hard time until they become professional...just like women in aviation.
As for the male sense of humour, banter etc...ah, the if-you-can't-take-the-heat-get-out-of-the-kitchen argument. Yes, some of it is meant jokingly. Do people realise how often we've heard about the sky not being pink etc? Ignoring it or going along with it may be best. But that doesn't alter the fact that IT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN!
And some of the prejudice is so nebulous even I don't recognise it, until...
There I was one day in a local flying club, with a male co-pilot, and someone comes in and starts chatting, and they ask him what he flies, and he names this huge variety of types and the fact he works with aeroplanes too, and they express general interest and ask him questions, and I'm sure everyone here recognises this as a typical flying school discussion.
But what happens to me? I get asked: "Are you learning to fly?" How come it's always "are you learning", not "do you fly" or "what do you fly". After all, it's a flying club, don't you assume people are pilots? Or at the PFA Rally a couple of days ago: "Do you fly or does your husband?" Now, I don't care any more, because I can launch into this lengthy monologue about being a CPL(H) and instructor, and also having a PPL(A) but being a bit rusty, and having tried to fly flexwing microlights too...by that point they're horribly embarrassed and being a kindhearted soul I let them off the hook. But seriously, it shouldn't happen!!!!! And it does, so so so SO often.
I have a dream...
...that one day I will be able to walk into a flying club, any flying club, and just be another pilot, that being a woman will be no big deal. That people won't ask my passenger how much fuel he wants, or complement him on the landing. That they won't ask me if I fly because my husband or father did. That the BWPA will cease to exist as it'll be no longer needed...I always say its raison d'etre is because minorities need to stick together, and women in aviation are definitely a minority.
It may happen...my next door neighbour's daughter joined the ATC, went solo at the age of just 16, and wants to join the RAF, and neither she nor anyone else thinks it's a big deal. Eventually, being the ternal optimist, I'm sure it WILL happen. But at the rate things are changing...I suspect that it won't be in my lifetime.
Yes there are inequalities between the sexes, but harping on about it simply irritates and strengthens existing prejudice
And I refuse to shut up just because people don't like it; these are important issues which need to be aired.There are two issues here (at least!) There is whether one experiences prejudice, and how you react to it if you do. A woman working in a male orientated industry (can't remember if it was cars or engineering) said to me once that you have to be one of the lads, but be careful not to lose your femininity. My first reaction was to panic and wonder how I achieved that balancing act; followed almost instantly by the thought: "Why the hell should I?" Now, I suspect some women do this naturally, and probably therefore get accepted and liked. Others decide to do it, and there's nothing wrong with that. But some of us either can't or won't. Why should we? What's wrong with being ourselves? Why should we have to worry all the time about what the guys think? Yet...this is what many women do, all the time. But no-one should have to change the way they are, aside from a modicum of consideration for other people and society's conventions. And that applies equally to men in female orientated fields...I suspect male ballet dancers have a hard time until they become professional...just like women in aviation.
As for the male sense of humour, banter etc...ah, the if-you-can't-take-the-heat-get-out-of-the-kitchen argument. Yes, some of it is meant jokingly. Do people realise how often we've heard about the sky not being pink etc? Ignoring it or going along with it may be best. But that doesn't alter the fact that IT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN!
And some of the prejudice is so nebulous even I don't recognise it, until...
There I was one day in a local flying club, with a male co-pilot, and someone comes in and starts chatting, and they ask him what he flies, and he names this huge variety of types and the fact he works with aeroplanes too, and they express general interest and ask him questions, and I'm sure everyone here recognises this as a typical flying school discussion.
But what happens to me? I get asked: "Are you learning to fly?" How come it's always "are you learning", not "do you fly" or "what do you fly". After all, it's a flying club, don't you assume people are pilots? Or at the PFA Rally a couple of days ago: "Do you fly or does your husband?" Now, I don't care any more, because I can launch into this lengthy monologue about being a CPL(H) and instructor, and also having a PPL(A) but being a bit rusty, and having tried to fly flexwing microlights too...by that point they're horribly embarrassed and being a kindhearted soul I let them off the hook.
But seriously, it shouldn't happen!!!!! And it does, so so so SO often.I have a dream...
...that one day I will be able to walk into a flying club, any flying club, and just be another pilot, that being a woman will be no big deal. That people won't ask my passenger how much fuel he wants, or complement him on the landing. That they won't ask me if I fly because my husband or father did. That the BWPA will cease to exist as it'll be no longer needed...I always say its raison d'etre is because minorities need to stick together, and women in aviation are definitely a minority.
It may happen...my next door neighbour's daughter joined the ATC, went solo at the age of just 16, and wants to join the RAF, and neither she nor anyone else thinks it's a big deal. Eventually, being the ternal optimist, I'm sure it WILL happen. But at the rate things are changing...I suspect that it won't be in my lifetime.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: europe
Posts: 546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought flying was dominated by female aviators.
My first instructor was a very competent woman who became a ferry pilot. Also at the airfield, now run by a female commercial pilot, was another female instructor who became an airline pilot.
When I and some colleagues went to buy a Commanchee we found ourselves negotiating with the long distance record breaker Shiela Scott.
One of the more memorable conversations I have had was with Jean Batten who was most encouraging to a mere schoolboy.
My last rating revalidation was carried out by a female instructor.
I have flown with a few male pilots, and found them to be equally good, perhaps the male attitudes Whirly has encountered are from pilots who have not had the good fortune to meet the people I have.
My first instructor was a very competent woman who became a ferry pilot. Also at the airfield, now run by a female commercial pilot, was another female instructor who became an airline pilot.
When I and some colleagues went to buy a Commanchee we found ourselves negotiating with the long distance record breaker Shiela Scott.
One of the more memorable conversations I have had was with Jean Batten who was most encouraging to a mere schoolboy.
My last rating revalidation was carried out by a female instructor.
I have flown with a few male pilots, and found them to be equally good, perhaps the male attitudes Whirly has encountered are from pilots who have not had the good fortune to meet the people I have.