Flat landings/PPL examiners
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Flat landings/PPL examiners
I would appreciate any tips you may have to finally sort out my landings!..... and I also have a question about examiners.
I have a tendency to land slightly flat and I think this is because in my early stages I did balloon quite a lot and this makes me very cautious in bringing the column back. I always land on the back wheels but I don't always achieve the correct pitch up.
I flare in the right place and right height and can hold off but when can I confidently bring the column back and acheive the right pitch without fear that the plane will climb.
Please let me know what your technique is?
When I eventually get this cracked and the rest of the course(!)
I will take the GFT. Who will the examiner be. The CFI at my Flying school is an examiner, will she do it? Are all CFI's examiners?
Fairly basic stuff I am afraid, but your comments would be very welcome.
I have a tendency to land slightly flat and I think this is because in my early stages I did balloon quite a lot and this makes me very cautious in bringing the column back. I always land on the back wheels but I don't always achieve the correct pitch up.
I flare in the right place and right height and can hold off but when can I confidently bring the column back and acheive the right pitch without fear that the plane will climb.
Please let me know what your technique is?
When I eventually get this cracked and the rest of the course(!)
I will take the GFT. Who will the examiner be. The CFI at my Flying school is an examiner, will she do it? Are all CFI's examiners?
Fairly basic stuff I am afraid, but your comments would be very welcome.
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What aircraft are you learning in? And are you leaving some power on for the landing?
If your CFI hasn't flown with you in the last ... is it 10 hours? ... then she will do the test with you. Don't think all CFIs are examiners. Seems I raised more questions than I answered :o
If your CFI hasn't flown with you in the last ... is it 10 hours? ... then she will do the test with you. Don't think all CFIs are examiners. Seems I raised more questions than I answered :o
Last edited by AerBabe; 31st Aug 2002 at 19:45.
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Not all instructors are examiners, in fact very few are. There are totally different requirements for the two.
Sounds like you are doing fine with your landings, practice makes perfect. Nail your approach speed and keep your eyes on the far end of the runway.
Sounds like you are doing fine with your landings, practice makes perfect. Nail your approach speed and keep your eyes on the far end of the runway.
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Flat landings are usually the result of an approach that is either too flat, too fast or a combination of the two. Sometimes, using less than land flap may be too blame. You should really get this sorted with an instructor as a matter of urgency. Flat landings lead to landing accidents!
You may take your test with any examiner you wish; usually clubs have their own examiner(s) that they like to use but, you are not compelled to use them. There are no specific qualifications for a CFI, its just a title, some are examiners, many are not.
You may take your test with any examiner you wish; usually clubs have their own examiner(s) that they like to use but, you are not compelled to use them. There are no specific qualifications for a CFI, its just a title, some are examiners, many are not.
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I still land a little flat in the PA28 but this is possibly due to the fact it is a heavyish aircraft for me, I do however get the odd landing that isnt that flat so i know i can do it. I was landing flat initially in the PA38 as well but with work I started flareing though as it is a lighter aircraft I have a tendancy to balloon.
I am begining to wonder if I will ever get solo in the PA28.
As for examiners not all CFI's are examiners and whether you will be examined by yours depends on how much flying you have done with them and how recently. Dont worry about examiners they are human and those I have come in contact with are very nice.
I am begining to wonder if I will ever get solo in the PA28.
As for examiners not all CFI's are examiners and whether you will be examined by yours depends on how much flying you have done with them and how recently. Dont worry about examiners they are human and those I have come in contact with are very nice.
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Thank you all for your comments, these have been very helpful and exactly what I was after.
I fly a PA28 and I find it just wants to keep on going, it seems quite happy to float along the runway for what seems an eternity!
I guess I might be trying to touchdown too soon.
My next lesson is this Monday and what I have picked up from these postings is to continue the holdoff as long as possible and pitch up when I detect the 'second' sink.
Bleeding the speed off takes much longer than I originally thought even with 75knts and power off over the numbers.
And if a slight balloon occurs, would you add a little power to rectify the situation and flare again? or abort and go around. Depends on runway length most likely.
As for Examiners, I am surprised that an examining CFI can test students from his/her own school, although from the students point of view this must be good I would have thought!
I fly a PA28 and I find it just wants to keep on going, it seems quite happy to float along the runway for what seems an eternity!
I guess I might be trying to touchdown too soon.
My next lesson is this Monday and what I have picked up from these postings is to continue the holdoff as long as possible and pitch up when I detect the 'second' sink.
Bleeding the speed off takes much longer than I originally thought even with 75knts and power off over the numbers.
And if a slight balloon occurs, would you add a little power to rectify the situation and flare again? or abort and go around. Depends on runway length most likely.
As for Examiners, I am surprised that an examining CFI can test students from his/her own school, although from the students point of view this must be good I would have thought!
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PA28s will float until you get them down to the right speed! It's all a matter of practice (repeat ad lib) until you know the right power settings, speeds, etc. If you approach fast, you WILL float for a long time.
Get the speed right for the version you're flying, and you can grease it on, nose high, with no bother, at the place on the runway YOU choose. My instructor would tell me which runway stripe to land on - and expect me to do that, every time. In the end, I learned to do that.
If it balloons, and until you're comfortable with the aircraft, go around and sort it out next time. The alternative could prove expensive.
Get the speed right for the version you're flying, and you can grease it on, nose high, with no bother, at the place on the runway YOU choose. My instructor would tell me which runway stripe to land on - and expect me to do that, every time. In the end, I learned to do that.
If it balloons, and until you're comfortable with the aircraft, go around and sort it out next time. The alternative could prove expensive.
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Lots of good advice already as far as I am concerned but to add to it get the trim spot on. In my opinion it can be quite hard to get balls on perfect but my guess is your best landings are when you could technicaly fly your final aproach hands off. The height judgement comes down to experience but flaring from a well trimmed approach is easy, it's the inital stage is the hard bit.
But in any case a flat landing beats bouncing down the runway or floating to the point where the runway gets unnervingly short.
But in any case a flat landing beats bouncing down the runway or floating to the point where the runway gets unnervingly short.
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Couple of figures have been thrown out for approach speed in a Warrior. I think they are still too high, though if that's what you want to do then go for it.
In the perfect warrior landing, you stall a few inches above the ground. Therefore, the speed you should be crossing the threshold is a factor of stall speed in the configuration you are in. So a flapless landing is going to be faster than a full flap landing. Likewise, if you are heavy you will need to be faster over the threshold than if you are light.
You can calculate the speed when crossing the threshold using a simple rule, I use 1.3 times stall speed in that configuration. So find out Vs1 and Vs0, and work it out yourself. Comes in a lot less than even 70 knots.
Fix your fast approach, you will find it so much easier to fix your float.
thumpango
Here you go, this explains it far better than I ever could.
Landing
Landing a plane is one of the few (IMO) totally unintuitive things in flying you have to master. You need to get the physics right first, then practice repeatedly until you get your sight picture worked out. It will come - but really make sure you nail your approach speed.
In the perfect warrior landing, you stall a few inches above the ground. Therefore, the speed you should be crossing the threshold is a factor of stall speed in the configuration you are in. So a flapless landing is going to be faster than a full flap landing. Likewise, if you are heavy you will need to be faster over the threshold than if you are light.
You can calculate the speed when crossing the threshold using a simple rule, I use 1.3 times stall speed in that configuration. So find out Vs1 and Vs0, and work it out yourself. Comes in a lot less than even 70 knots.
Fix your fast approach, you will find it so much easier to fix your float.
thumpango
Here you go, this explains it far better than I ever could.
Landing
Landing a plane is one of the few (IMO) totally unintuitive things in flying you have to master. You need to get the physics right first, then practice repeatedly until you get your sight picture worked out. It will come - but really make sure you nail your approach speed.
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Thumpango
In calm air I use 65kias/full flap short final on a PA28-181 (Archer) at gross - the "book" says 63, but the ASI ain't calibrated that finely! Gusting day or tricky x-wind I'll add 5kias, but no more.
The "warrior" wing is relatively efficient and will trade energy (i.e. airspeed) into distance, thus floating halfway down the runway.
Also, you are in ground effect from about 15 feet up (half the wingspan which is 35ft on a Warrior), so this aids and abets the floating.
Are you using full flap or flap 25 for landing? My flight school used 25 as standard doctrine, but I have always found full flaps to make for easier landings - less float, less apparent flare required due to the pitch down effect of full flaps and more drag ... although PA28 flaps are not as effective as say Cessna 15x/17x in this respect.
When I was s student going through the same feeligns that you are now, an experienced pilot told me to try not to land, i.e. keep the aeroplane flying in the flare as long as poss - this always helped me.
Obviously you need to be at the right height above the runway - 2-3 feet and then the a/c will gently sink on when ready.
Also, don't forget to transfer your focus to the end of the runway no later than just before crossing the threshold.
As other posters have said, just keep going everythign will be fine.
There used to be a lovely sign in a flying club ...... Learn to fly £100, learn to land £3500!
In calm air I use 65kias/full flap short final on a PA28-181 (Archer) at gross - the "book" says 63, but the ASI ain't calibrated that finely! Gusting day or tricky x-wind I'll add 5kias, but no more.
The "warrior" wing is relatively efficient and will trade energy (i.e. airspeed) into distance, thus floating halfway down the runway.
Also, you are in ground effect from about 15 feet up (half the wingspan which is 35ft on a Warrior), so this aids and abets the floating.
Are you using full flap or flap 25 for landing? My flight school used 25 as standard doctrine, but I have always found full flaps to make for easier landings - less float, less apparent flare required due to the pitch down effect of full flaps and more drag ... although PA28 flaps are not as effective as say Cessna 15x/17x in this respect.
When I was s student going through the same feeligns that you are now, an experienced pilot told me to try not to land, i.e. keep the aeroplane flying in the flare as long as poss - this always helped me.
Obviously you need to be at the right height above the runway - 2-3 feet and then the a/c will gently sink on when ready.
Also, don't forget to transfer your focus to the end of the runway no later than just before crossing the threshold.
As other posters have said, just keep going everythign will be fine.
There used to be a lovely sign in a flying club ...... Learn to fly £100, learn to land £3500!
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In my limited flying experience, it's definitely approach and over the hedge speed which dictates the quality or otherwise of the landing. Carrying just a bit too much speed increases the float exponentially. Conversely, you need to be very ready with a good dollop of power if coming in slow with full flaps and you hit a bit of sink or get a bit low.
Overall, I'd say one is more likely to crack up in the long-term by tending to carry more airspeed ('for safety's sake') than practicing coming in a bit slower. You may well find it is approach speed which is the problem.
QDM
Overall, I'd say one is more likely to crack up in the long-term by tending to carry more airspeed ('for safety's sake') than practicing coming in a bit slower. You may well find it is approach speed which is the problem.
QDM
After a couple of expensive wheelbarrow incidents, we did a thorough review of approach and landing techniques in the PA28 Cherokee and Warrior II.
First the normal powered approach technique. After rolling out of the fianl turn, select FULL flap, adjust the pitch attitude and TRIM to the approach speed. Then aim precisely at the touchdown spot and 'point-and-power' all the way to the flare.
Now the speeds:
Cherokee 140C: Normal 70 mph, Flapless 75 mph, Glide 85 mph reducing to not less than 75 mph once full flap has been selected.
Warrior II: Normal 65 kts, Flapless 70 kts, Glide 75 kts reducing to not less than 70 kts once full flap has been selected.
These are MAX AUW APPROACH speeds derived from the POH, not 'Threshold' speeds. They are maintained all the way down to the flare, whereupon you stop looking at the IAS and concentrate on the landing. DO NOT add 5 kts for 3 people or more or add anything extra for strong winds, otherwise the ac will float - which you do NOT want to happen in a stiff crosswind.
Since adopting these new, lower speeds we have had no more landing problems. The guidance used to be to use the speeds as threshold speeds and to fly 10 kts/mph higher on the approach. It had also been recommended to add 1/3 of the wind above 15 kts and another 5 kts/mph if there were 3 or more on board. This just led to people trying to flare at 80-85, ballooning, bouncing and trying to contain an out of trim force as they tried to land - then running out of strength/patience and pitching the ac onto its nosewheel. It was utter bo££ocks resulting from heavy/jet aircraft techniques being applied incorrectly to light SEP aircraft.
First the normal powered approach technique. After rolling out of the fianl turn, select FULL flap, adjust the pitch attitude and TRIM to the approach speed. Then aim precisely at the touchdown spot and 'point-and-power' all the way to the flare.
Now the speeds:
Cherokee 140C: Normal 70 mph, Flapless 75 mph, Glide 85 mph reducing to not less than 75 mph once full flap has been selected.
Warrior II: Normal 65 kts, Flapless 70 kts, Glide 75 kts reducing to not less than 70 kts once full flap has been selected.
These are MAX AUW APPROACH speeds derived from the POH, not 'Threshold' speeds. They are maintained all the way down to the flare, whereupon you stop looking at the IAS and concentrate on the landing. DO NOT add 5 kts for 3 people or more or add anything extra for strong winds, otherwise the ac will float - which you do NOT want to happen in a stiff crosswind.
Since adopting these new, lower speeds we have had no more landing problems. The guidance used to be to use the speeds as threshold speeds and to fly 10 kts/mph higher on the approach. It had also been recommended to add 1/3 of the wind above 15 kts and another 5 kts/mph if there were 3 or more on board. This just led to people trying to flare at 80-85, ballooning, bouncing and trying to contain an out of trim force as they tried to land - then running out of strength/patience and pitching the ac onto its nosewheel. It was utter bo££ocks resulting from heavy/jet aircraft techniques being applied incorrectly to light SEP aircraft.
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I'm not as experienced as many (most) on here, but I must say I agree with the last few posters. The thing that really did it for me when learning to land was trying not to land the aircraft - as F3G says, i.e. the yoke should be right back in your chest with the stall warner blaring before anything touches the ground.
I did my first ever nosewheel-first landing the other day and the reason was that I didn't fly a stabilised approach - too high, then a little low and fast and most importantly, too fast over the threashold. It always amazes me just how slow the warrior can fly before stalling.
As others have said, full flap is a huge help - it provides loads of drag and not much extra lift. It's really noticable just how long the speed takes to bleed off with only 25 degrees. Obviously we practice without, but I don't see why full 40 deg flap shouldn't be standard.
I did my first ever nosewheel-first landing the other day and the reason was that I didn't fly a stabilised approach - too high, then a little low and fast and most importantly, too fast over the threashold. It always amazes me just how slow the warrior can fly before stalling.
As others have said, full flap is a huge help - it provides loads of drag and not much extra lift. It's really noticable just how long the speed takes to bleed off with only 25 degrees. Obviously we practice without, but I don't see why full 40 deg flap shouldn't be standard.
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In addition to what the other learned people have advised....
You could try trimming slightly nose up on the approach. By this I mean so you need a bit of forward force on the control column to maintain the glide path, this will help you in the flare. Once you have mastered the art of flaring, then you can remove this nose up trim....
Its a technique often advised for bigger aircraft (eg a multi), where when you chop the power, becasue of the big airbrakes on the wing (props), the nose tends to drop...
Good luck !
EA
You could try trimming slightly nose up on the approach. By this I mean so you need a bit of forward force on the control column to maintain the glide path, this will help you in the flare. Once you have mastered the art of flaring, then you can remove this nose up trim....
Its a technique often advised for bigger aircraft (eg a multi), where when you chop the power, becasue of the big airbrakes on the wing (props), the nose tends to drop...
Good luck !
EA
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Many thanks to you all for your contribution to help my landings.
There is now more comprehensive information on landing in this thread than I have seen in any textbook or been taught!.
I hope this also helps others who are fine tuning their landing proceedure.
Having read all your posts I now recognise that my problems are:
1) Speed too high over the threshold
I stabilise the approach speed at 75knts with full flap (flying school requires this). I do find that trimming to a very slight forward pressure does help when it comes to the flare as the column naturally wants to go in the direction I should be moving it in.
I have been closing the throttle as I come over the numbers, I think I will try trickling the throttle off slightly earlier.
2) Not fully completing the flare
Earlier balloning experiences have made me reluctant to pull back. I now appreciate that I need to keep increasing that angle of attack gently as I detect sink.
Wow, I don't have any excuse for messing up in the lesson tomorrow! I will let you know how this works out
Slim_Slag: thank you for the Landing doc !
There is now more comprehensive information on landing in this thread than I have seen in any textbook or been taught!.
I hope this also helps others who are fine tuning their landing proceedure.
Having read all your posts I now recognise that my problems are:
1) Speed too high over the threshold
I stabilise the approach speed at 75knts with full flap (flying school requires this). I do find that trimming to a very slight forward pressure does help when it comes to the flare as the column naturally wants to go in the direction I should be moving it in.
I have been closing the throttle as I come over the numbers, I think I will try trickling the throttle off slightly earlier.
2) Not fully completing the flare
Earlier balloning experiences have made me reluctant to pull back. I now appreciate that I need to keep increasing that angle of attack gently as I detect sink.
Wow, I don't have any excuse for messing up in the lesson tomorrow! I will let you know how this works out
Slim_Slag: thank you for the Landing doc !
Thumpango, why on Earth does your flying school require you to fly so fast on the approach? Tell them to re-examine the Pilot Operating Handbook for the Warrior.
If you fly too fast on the approach, you will have difficulty in landing because the aeroplane will be out of trim. You have to manage that out of trim force, as well as finessing the flare - and that is MUCH more difficult if the approach speed was excessive.
Your comments about pre-loading the control column thus 'allowing the column to move in the direction you should be moving it in the flare' are indicative of developing a personal technique to cope with flying the ac far too fast on the approach. Perhaps you should go elsewhere to a school which teaches you to fly aeroplanes as the designer intended?
No wonder you're having difficulty in learning to land the aeroplane! Not your fault - it's definitely theirs!!
If you fly too fast on the approach, you will have difficulty in landing because the aeroplane will be out of trim. You have to manage that out of trim force, as well as finessing the flare - and that is MUCH more difficult if the approach speed was excessive.
Your comments about pre-loading the control column thus 'allowing the column to move in the direction you should be moving it in the flare' are indicative of developing a personal technique to cope with flying the ac far too fast on the approach. Perhaps you should go elsewhere to a school which teaches you to fly aeroplanes as the designer intended?
No wonder you're having difficulty in learning to land the aeroplane! Not your fault - it's definitely theirs!!
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I stabilise the approach speed at 75knts with full flap (flying school requires this).
As BEagle says, this is nuts.
I have been closing the throttle as I come over the numbers, I think I will try trickling the throttle off slightly earlier.
When you get round to flying proper planes you will go to idle abeam the numbers. Even in spam cans I always close the throttle when the landing is assured, which can be anywhere really, but that is considered an old-fashioned technique in these new and interesting times Your flying school really likes you to come in fast, it really is a very bad habit.
Yeh BEagle, you are right in that all these additions/subtractions to approach speed are unnecessary. If it's not gusty I just say 63 knots with full flaps - but it's noticeable how just an extra person can affect the flare. As for when you measure the speed, I use the threshold because that is when I last look at the panel. I have no idea what speed I am doing after that, my eyes are definitely outside. In fact, I might not look at the panel at all, pitch attitude tells the story. Sounds like your place has the right idea though.
If you really want to be an accomplished lander, master a taildragger beast.
As BEagle says, this is nuts.
I have been closing the throttle as I come over the numbers, I think I will try trickling the throttle off slightly earlier.
When you get round to flying proper planes
you will go to idle abeam the numbers. Even in spam cans I always close the throttle when the landing is assured, which can be anywhere really, but that is considered an old-fashioned technique in these new and interesting times Your flying school really likes you to come in fast, it really is a very bad habit.Yeh BEagle, you are right in that all these additions/subtractions to approach speed are unnecessary. If it's not gusty I just say 63 knots with full flaps - but it's noticeable how just an extra person can affect the flare. As for when you measure the speed, I use the threshold because that is when I last look at the panel. I have no idea what speed I am doing after that, my eyes are definitely outside. In fact, I might not look at the panel at all, pitch attitude tells the story. Sounds like your place has the right idea though.
If you really want to be an accomplished lander, master a taildragger beast.
Last edited by slim_slag; 1st Sep 2002 at 16:29.
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Thumpango
Little to add to what has already been said, except to say that absolutely the best way I know of consistently landing a Warrior properly is to have some lessons in a taildragger until you can consistently land one of those properly!
I didn't realise quite how mediocre my landings could be until my first bounces in a taildragger....
Little to add to what has already been said, except to say that absolutely the best way I know of consistently landing a Warrior properly is to have some lessons in a taildragger until you can consistently land one of those properly!
I didn't realise quite how mediocre my landings could be until my first bounces in a taildragger....