Flat landings/PPL examiners
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Ok this how it went today.
Long discussion with my instructor about final approach speed. Luckily this was in the briefing room before we t/o due to the circuit being busy. When we located the POH (!) lo and behold recommended final approach speed is 63knts, although curiously the manual says trim to 70knts on approach. Do they mean 63knts over the threshold then?
Anyway, the schools policy as dictated by CFI is 75knts so that is what we agree to do, (we can't do anything else really!)
Still evening, calm and excellent flying conditions.
We do 6 circuits, all to the book, and 75knts on approach (nailed!)
Just before the numbers I close throttle and we do 6 reasonable landings! floating for quite a period but by constantly looking out for the sink and then pulling back all the time the stall warner eventually confirmed that the main wheels were ready to touch down, and we did!
My instructor noticed that my best landing was when the AIS over the threshold was 63knts!
No flight training manual I have come across so far has covered the subject of landings as thoughly as the input from this thread.
Thanks to this forum I am now able to think this through clearly and I have improved my landing technique!
Thank you for all your comments! and to Slim_slag for actually chartering a Warrior and trying this out!!
One extra comment I would add though is, when the back wheels have kissed the runway don't forget in the euphoria to lower the nose gently to the ground before doing anything else! avoid premature release of flaps on a touch and go until the nose is on the runway
At the end of the lesson my instructor said although my previous landings were reasonable, today I had greatly improved and were it not for the 90mins before sunset rule he would have sent me solo.
90mins before sunset rule? I feel another thread coming on!!
Long discussion with my instructor about final approach speed. Luckily this was in the briefing room before we t/o due to the circuit being busy. When we located the POH (!) lo and behold recommended final approach speed is 63knts, although curiously the manual says trim to 70knts on approach. Do they mean 63knts over the threshold then?
Anyway, the schools policy as dictated by CFI is 75knts so that is what we agree to do, (we can't do anything else really!)
Still evening, calm and excellent flying conditions.
We do 6 circuits, all to the book, and 75knts on approach (nailed!)
Just before the numbers I close throttle and we do 6 reasonable landings! floating for quite a period but by constantly looking out for the sink and then pulling back all the time the stall warner eventually confirmed that the main wheels were ready to touch down, and we did!
My instructor noticed that my best landing was when the AIS over the threshold was 63knts!
No flight training manual I have come across so far has covered the subject of landings as thoughly as the input from this thread.
Thanks to this forum I am now able to think this through clearly and I have improved my landing technique!
Thank you for all your comments! and to Slim_slag for actually chartering a Warrior and trying this out!!
One extra comment I would add though is, when the back wheels have kissed the runway don't forget in the euphoria to lower the nose gently to the ground before doing anything else! avoid premature release of flaps on a touch and go until the nose is on the runway
At the end of the lesson my instructor said although my previous landings were reasonable, today I had greatly improved and were it not for the 90mins before sunset rule he would have sent me solo.
90mins before sunset rule? I feel another thread coming on!!
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thumpandgo
Anyway, the schools policy as dictated by CFI is 75knts so that is what we agree to do, (we can't do anything else really!)
Did he/she explain the reason for this?
One extra comment I would add though is, when the back wheels have kissed the runway don't forget in the euphoria to lower the nose gently to the ground before doing anything else!
Hmm, the nose wheel will find the runway on its own. You don't want to get into the habit of releasing back pressure, bad habit. One day I hope you will move on to tail draggers, where unthinkingly keeping the stick back in your belly during the roll out is essential. Same applies for warriors, is your instructor telling you to force the nose down?
Thank you for all your comments! and to Slim_slag for actually chartering a Warrior and trying this out!!
Well, I had to go somewhere at short notice with more weight than a super-cub could (legally) carry. It's a bank holiday weekend here, and all I could get on the day was a warrior. I had fun putzing around in the pattern, but they sure don't climb out well with passenger & camping gear, from an airport with density altitude of 8000ft. Almost off the perfomance chart
icg
Do not confuse approach speed with threashold speed, the two are different.
If you keep a nice tight pattern you don't have an "approach" as such. You certainly should not be doing "approach speed" on final if you are doing standard pattern work, IMO. Downwind is the only place for 75knts. If tower told me to perform a straight in approach, I'd slow down to 63 knots well before I got to the threshold, certainly over a mile out, so short final was properly stabilised. In this thread I was thinking of remaining in the pattern, sorry if I confused matters by inexact use of the word "approach".
cheers
Anyway, the schools policy as dictated by CFI is 75knts so that is what we agree to do, (we can't do anything else really!)
Did he/she explain the reason for this?
One extra comment I would add though is, when the back wheels have kissed the runway don't forget in the euphoria to lower the nose gently to the ground before doing anything else!
Hmm, the nose wheel will find the runway on its own. You don't want to get into the habit of releasing back pressure, bad habit. One day I hope you will move on to tail draggers, where unthinkingly keeping the stick back in your belly during the roll out is essential. Same applies for warriors, is your instructor telling you to force the nose down?
Thank you for all your comments! and to Slim_slag for actually chartering a Warrior and trying this out!!
Well, I had to go somewhere at short notice with more weight than a super-cub could (legally) carry. It's a bank holiday weekend here, and all I could get on the day was a warrior. I had fun putzing around in the pattern, but they sure don't climb out well with passenger & camping gear, from an airport with density altitude of 8000ft. Almost off the perfomance chart
icg
Do not confuse approach speed with threashold speed, the two are different.
If you keep a nice tight pattern you don't have an "approach" as such. You certainly should not be doing "approach speed" on final if you are doing standard pattern work, IMO. Downwind is the only place for 75knts. If tower told me to perform a straight in approach, I'd slow down to 63 knots well before I got to the threshold, certainly over a mile out, so short final was properly stabilised. In this thread I was thinking of remaining in the pattern, sorry if I confused matters by inexact use of the word "approach".
cheers
Moderator
Glad to hear it went better on your last flight!
s_s is right about lowering the nosewheel onto the runway; if you remember back to the straight and level brief, there is a nose-down turning moment caused by the lift-weight couple, which is why we have a tailplane (or stabilator in the case of the Warrior). As the lift decreases in the landing, and the lower airspeed causes less effectiveness in the stabilator to counteract this, the nose will come down on it's own. No need to release the back pressure, doing so could cause damage to the noswheel and lead to "wheelbarrowing". As you apply power in the touch and go, increasing airspeed and the slipstream effect makes the tailplane more effective, only then should you adjust the back pressure for the correct attitude for take off.
While keeping "eyes up" and centreline under the nose of course!
And I agree that doing a few approaches in a tailwheel will really improve your landing skills!
As for the threshold speed...well that's not a great time to be looking at the ASI, this is the stage where you should be focussing "up". An approach at 75 kts is all very well, and may increase controllability in gusty winds, but just means you will float further while washing off the speed. Fine if you have oodles of runway, not fine if you are trying to land on a short strip say <600m. Have a look at the performance tables in the POH, then see if you can land in those distances with a faster approach speed than recommended.
Good luck!
s_s is right about lowering the nosewheel onto the runway; if you remember back to the straight and level brief, there is a nose-down turning moment caused by the lift-weight couple, which is why we have a tailplane (or stabilator in the case of the Warrior). As the lift decreases in the landing, and the lower airspeed causes less effectiveness in the stabilator to counteract this, the nose will come down on it's own. No need to release the back pressure, doing so could cause damage to the noswheel and lead to "wheelbarrowing". As you apply power in the touch and go, increasing airspeed and the slipstream effect makes the tailplane more effective, only then should you adjust the back pressure for the correct attitude for take off.
While keeping "eyes up" and centreline under the nose of course!
And I agree that doing a few approaches in a tailwheel will really improve your landing skills!
As for the threshold speed...well that's not a great time to be looking at the ASI, this is the stage where you should be focussing "up". An approach at 75 kts is all very well, and may increase controllability in gusty winds, but just means you will float further while washing off the speed. Fine if you have oodles of runway, not fine if you are trying to land on a short strip say <600m. Have a look at the performance tables in the POH, then see if you can land in those distances with a faster approach speed than recommended.
Good luck!
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CFI,
thanks for the tip! I am slowly debugging my landings and the advice on this thread has been extremely helpful.
I am developing an appetite for tail draggers now!
thanks for the tip! I am slowly debugging my landings and the advice on this thread has been extremely helpful.
I am developing an appetite for tail draggers now!
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Hi Kurty:
I spent a lot of time in Jeddah at Jet Aviation working on an airplane out on the ramp trying to solve an engine problem.
Also spent many weeks at the Red Sea Palace hotel.
Has it been hot in Jeddah lately?
Cat Driver:
I spent a lot of time in Jeddah at Jet Aviation working on an airplane out on the ramp trying to solve an engine problem.
Also spent many weeks at the Red Sea Palace hotel.
Has it been hot in Jeddah lately?
Cat Driver:
