Flat landings/PPL examiners
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BEagle and Slim_Slag,
thank you for this. I will question why so high a speed on approach with my school, this is what I have been taught from the start for the Warrior, along with climb at 80, cruise at 100, decend base at 80.
You are all in agreement that 75knts is higher than you would expect.
Umm, got me wondering now.
HelenD- what approach speed do you use? (adjacent school!)
thank you for this. I will question why so high a speed on approach with my school, this is what I have been taught from the start for the Warrior, along with climb at 80, cruise at 100, decend base at 80.
You are all in agreement that 75knts is higher than you would expect.
Umm, got me wondering now.
HelenD- what approach speed do you use? (adjacent school!)
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I use the same approach speeds as you Thumpandgo though on base we get to 75 kts and trim but I dont think the speeds I use is causing my problems. I have trouble pulling back gradually in the flare and this is possibly due to lack of strength. Before I managed to keep my airspeed at 75kts it somtimes dropped to 70 kts and the instructor reminded me about airspeed. As for the POH after a conversation I had post reading it I will never go near the book again.
Last edited by HelenD; 1st Sep 2002 at 17:30.
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Thank you Helen,
well that IS interesting, you use 75knts as well.
Maybe it is so there is no way we will ever get near the stall on finals if we are a bit slack in maintaining the speed.
It's certainly not helping us on the landing though, that's for sure, as witnessed by the comments above.
well that IS interesting, you use 75knts as well.
Maybe it is so there is no way we will ever get near the stall on finals if we are a bit slack in maintaining the speed.
It's certainly not helping us on the landing though, that's for sure, as witnessed by the comments above.
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Helen
I have trouble pulling back gradually in the flare and this is possibly due to lack of strength.
If you trimmed for 63 knots on long final and set up for your stabilised approach, this would not be such a problem. If you trim on base, for 75 knots, and do not retrim, then you will definitely be fighting the trim tab as you described. Nothing to do with strength, there are plenty of weak people landing warriors perfectly.
Although I have never actually looked, I suspect you are flying at around 40-45kts IAS when you actually properly land a warrior. Thats a lot of force against the trim if the plane is set for 75knts IAS. (IAS not too accurate at high AOA of course) You should be in trim all the way down final. In some planes, light twins for instance, you may even be trimming in the roundout.
Wait until you fly something like a 182, if you are not trimmed properly on final in one of those, you will really be fighting to pull back in the flare. Learn how to fly properly and you will not have to relearn bad habits.
I never learned how to land properly until I flew a supercub. Even now I still screw it up.
Maybe it is so there is no way we will ever get near the stall on finals if we are a bit slack in maintaining the speed.
Well if that is the reason, it's a very bad one.
I have trouble pulling back gradually in the flare and this is possibly due to lack of strength.
If you trimmed for 63 knots on long final and set up for your stabilised approach, this would not be such a problem. If you trim on base, for 75 knots, and do not retrim, then you will definitely be fighting the trim tab as you described. Nothing to do with strength, there are plenty of weak people landing warriors perfectly.
Although I have never actually looked, I suspect you are flying at around 40-45kts IAS when you actually properly land a warrior. Thats a lot of force against the trim if the plane is set for 75knts IAS. (IAS not too accurate at high AOA of course) You should be in trim all the way down final. In some planes, light twins for instance, you may even be trimming in the roundout.
Wait until you fly something like a 182, if you are not trimmed properly on final in one of those, you will really be fighting to pull back in the flare. Learn how to fly properly and you will not have to relearn bad habits.
I never learned how to land properly until I flew a supercub. Even now I still screw it up.
Maybe it is so there is no way we will ever get near the stall on finals if we are a bit slack in maintaining the speed.
Well if that is the reason, it's a very bad one.
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Most landing accidents are caused by landing too fast. The approach speed is 33% above the stall speed, so there is no need to add more. To do so increases your risk of a landing accident! A CAA examiner will expect you to land at the speed indicated in the aircraft manual. I would expect:
For a PA 28-140 - 70 mph with Full Flap
For a PA28-161/180 - 65 Kts with Full Flap
For a PA 28-140 - 70 mph with Full Flap
For a PA28-161/180 - 65 Kts with Full Flap
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I will question why so high a speed on approach with my school, this is what I have been taught from the start for the Warrior, along with climb at 80, cruise at 100, decend base at 80.
When I was first briefed about landing the beast I was told that a stabilized 65kts on final was 'ideal' but they factor in a 5kt safety factor to account for the inability of students to get speed right (and I'm as guilty as any there) - better to come over the hedge a bit fast than stall it on short final.
If you learn the 'point-and-power' technique, you will be scanning your speed constantly throughout the approach until you begin the flare. Continuous and prompt attention to touchdown point and appraoch speed are the keys to success - and it's SO easy to teach and for the student to learn.
I will NOT allow any student to solo until they can fly an accurate approach speed at the POH speeds - as stated above. No need to 'factor in 5 kts' - that's just acceptance of poor standards.
As a fellow UK Flight Examiner, I concur with BlueLine.
I will NOT allow any student to solo until they can fly an accurate approach speed at the POH speeds - as stated above. No need to 'factor in 5 kts' - that's just acceptance of poor standards.
As a fellow UK Flight Examiner, I concur with BlueLine.
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Ok, well I have a problem here.
My CFI (CAA Examiner) insists on nailing 75knts final approach.
PA28-161 Warrior
I shall question this tomorrow when I go for my lesson, but whatever the reason, it is not making good landings easy.
Both schools at EGHI teach this approach speed, are any of the instructors reading this thread?
My CFI (CAA Examiner) insists on nailing 75knts final approach.
PA28-161 Warrior
I shall question this tomorrow when I go for my lesson, but whatever the reason, it is not making good landings easy.
Both schools at EGHI teach this approach speed, are any of the instructors reading this thread?
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My CFI (CAA Examiner) insists on nailing 75knts final approach.
Anyway, doesn't make much difference, its what you do with it at the end that counts. When or if you progress to instruments, you'll fly the ILS at 100kts or (possibly 90 depending) with one stage of flap, pop out at minimums, wack in all the flap and touch down just as nicely.
Cheers
EA
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Thumpango,
I hope all the good advice here helps your landings today! I think it's great that you're so aware of what's going on so early on. Many instructors I've spoken to have told me that they never really understood how to land an aeroplane until they did their CPL - as long as you can land safely, you'll pass your skills test. But accident statistics seem to show that if "safely" includes not wrecking your nose-gear, then it's important to learn to flare properly!
Personally, I didn't learn to flare until I did a tail-dragger check-out. You'd better flare properly in a tail-dragger if you're doing a 3-point landing, or else you'll be going straight back up into the air after the main wheels touch, far worse than any bounce you've experienced in a tricycle! If you really want to learn to fly properly, get yourself a few lessons in something with a tail-wheel - the skills you'll learn will transfer straight back onto the Warrior, and your landings will be so much better you'll wonder how you managed before!
Apart from that, though, just follow the advice on this thread, and you'll be fine. It takes a while to learn when to pull the yoke back, and how fast. Stick with it. Keep being critical of your landings, but not so critical you ruin the enjoyment, and you'll get there soon!
FFF
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I hope all the good advice here helps your landings today! I think it's great that you're so aware of what's going on so early on. Many instructors I've spoken to have told me that they never really understood how to land an aeroplane until they did their CPL - as long as you can land safely, you'll pass your skills test. But accident statistics seem to show that if "safely" includes not wrecking your nose-gear, then it's important to learn to flare properly!
Personally, I didn't learn to flare until I did a tail-dragger check-out. You'd better flare properly in a tail-dragger if you're doing a 3-point landing, or else you'll be going straight back up into the air after the main wheels touch, far worse than any bounce you've experienced in a tricycle! If you really want to learn to fly properly, get yourself a few lessons in something with a tail-wheel - the skills you'll learn will transfer straight back onto the Warrior, and your landings will be so much better you'll wonder how you managed before!
Apart from that, though, just follow the advice on this thread, and you'll be fine. It takes a while to learn when to pull the yoke back, and how fast. Stick with it. Keep being critical of your landings, but not so critical you ruin the enjoyment, and you'll get there soon!
FFF
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Thump, have you tried posting on the instructors forum? Get them to have a look at this thread. You'll probably not get a concensus, but it'll be interesting.
Let us know how todays lesson goes. I'd be interested to know why they insist on the higher speed. As you say, I assume it's a 'safety factor' but I also agree that this is the wrong way to teach - I've always been pushed to get every part of the flight correct from the first time and this method seems to work, for me at least. I do agree that a float is better than a stall on short final, but why accept either?
Let us know how todays lesson goes. I'd be interested to know why they insist on the higher speed. As you say, I assume it's a 'safety factor' but I also agree that this is the wrong way to teach - I've always been pushed to get every part of the flight correct from the first time and this method seems to work, for me at least. I do agree that a float is better than a stall on short final, but why accept either?
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Well, bit disappointing today, lesson cancelled due to xwind gusting 17knts!
Anyway, I have rebooked the lesson for tomorrow- watch this space, I can't wait! I know exactly what I am going to try this time thanks to the answers on this thread. I will also take up FFF's suggestion and put a link on the Instructors forum (thank you).
Beagle, if you read this can you drop me an email please?
Anyway, I have rebooked the lesson for tomorrow- watch this space, I can't wait! I know exactly what I am going to try this time thanks to the answers on this thread. I will also take up FFF's suggestion and put a link on the Instructors forum (thank you).
Beagle, if you read this can you drop me an email please?
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The CFI at my flying club told me 70kts (PA28-161) when solo. I kept finding that I was floating a long way before touchdown (not good on a relatively short runway!). One of the other instructors said I should try 65kts; it worked a treat.
However, I was flying on Saturday, had a peachy landing at Kemble (nice bacon butty!) but on return was faced with 15kts straight across the RW with no headwind/tailwind component. One could say that the landing was somewhat interesting. I was wondering if a different approach speed may have helped?
BEagle, I'ld like to try your point-and-power technique; could you explain/e-mail?
PS. Got my PPL, but definitely still willing to learn.
However, I was flying on Saturday, had a peachy landing at Kemble (nice bacon butty!) but on return was faced with 15kts straight across the RW with no headwind/tailwind component. One could say that the landing was somewhat interesting. I was wondering if a different approach speed may have helped?
BEagle, I'ld like to try your point-and-power technique; could you explain/e-mail?
PS. Got my PPL, but definitely still willing to learn.
You'll find a healthy debate on the 'point-and-power' technique on the instructors' forum.
But basically:
Roll out of final turn at the normal point.
Select full flap, adjust attitude to achieve approach speed, trim to maintain that speed.
NOW TRANSFER YOUR ATTENTION TO THE TOUCHDOWN AREA and choose a specific point on the runway to aim at.
Point an imaginary spot on the windscreen at your chosen aiming point and keep it firmly 'on target' by use of the aircraft primary controls.
Glance at the ASI - if approach speed is correct, leave the power set. If it is low, gently increase power by about 50 rpm;if high, reduce by about 50 rpm. Look back at your aiming point - has it moved? If so, point the ac back at it.
Repeat the cycle 'Touchdown point - speed - power. Touchdown point - speed - power' all the way down the approach until the flare. Then gently close the throttle fully and apply sufficient back pressure to reduce the descent rate to zero, look at the far end of the runway and allow the ac to sink the last 1/2 mm onto the runway....
Thumpango if you wish to e-mail me, you can find the address under 'profile'.
But basically:
Roll out of final turn at the normal point.
Select full flap, adjust attitude to achieve approach speed, trim to maintain that speed.
NOW TRANSFER YOUR ATTENTION TO THE TOUCHDOWN AREA and choose a specific point on the runway to aim at.
Point an imaginary spot on the windscreen at your chosen aiming point and keep it firmly 'on target' by use of the aircraft primary controls.
Glance at the ASI - if approach speed is correct, leave the power set. If it is low, gently increase power by about 50 rpm;if high, reduce by about 50 rpm. Look back at your aiming point - has it moved? If so, point the ac back at it.
Repeat the cycle 'Touchdown point - speed - power. Touchdown point - speed - power' all the way down the approach until the flare. Then gently close the throttle fully and apply sufficient back pressure to reduce the descent rate to zero, look at the far end of the runway and allow the ac to sink the last 1/2 mm onto the runway....
Thumpango if you wish to e-mail me, you can find the address under 'profile'.
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For "point and power", try reading this thread in the instructor's forum.
Basically you pick an aiming point which will be a short distance from your intended touchdown point (distance depending on headwind component). You keep that point in a fixed point on the windscreen (not seeming to move up or down) using the elevators, and use the throttle to ensure you maintain the correct approach speed.
As BEagle says, it's a piece of cake and - in my much more limited experience - ensures you consistently land just where you want to.
As for the Warrior approach speed in a crosswind, 65kts on short final with a "wing down", "point and power" approach seems to give the right result pretty consistently - and I'm not any kind of an ace pilot.
Looks like I was writing my message just as BEagle posted his.....
Basically you pick an aiming point which will be a short distance from your intended touchdown point (distance depending on headwind component). You keep that point in a fixed point on the windscreen (not seeming to move up or down) using the elevators, and use the throttle to ensure you maintain the correct approach speed.
As BEagle says, it's a piece of cake and - in my much more limited experience - ensures you consistently land just where you want to.
As for the Warrior approach speed in a crosswind, 65kts on short final with a "wing down", "point and power" approach seems to give the right result pretty consistently - and I'm not any kind of an ace pilot.
Looks like I was writing my message just as BEagle posted his.....
Last edited by Aerobatic Flyer; 2nd Sep 2002 at 20:06.
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Well, bit disappointing today, lesson cancelled due to xwind gusting 17knts!
I'd be extremely disapointed. Max demonstrated crosswind component in a warrior is, believe it or not, 17knts!
You missed a great learning opportunity. I hope you don't get to see a crosswind like that for the first time when you are on your own. I assume your instructor is up to that sort of crosswind himself of course
PS I went and rented a warrior today, first time I'd flown one in six months. Tried coming in at 75knts over the threshold and floated halfway down the runway. Then I included the ASI in my scan up to the beginning of the flare, and booger me, I bounced it! Just goes to show your eyes should be outside and not inside when you are close to the ground (well, mine should be outside). On my 63 knt approaches, which were very nice indeed, I was a maverick and reduced power to idle abeam the numbers and I did not stall, spin, crash or even - perish the thought - have to add power at any stage before landing.
I think it's smart to ensure a student can demonstrate a stabilised approach at +- 5 knts before solo. I also think a student should be able to fly the pattern/circuit with the airspeed indicator covered (and be +- 5knts of all appropriate airspeeds) before he gets signed off for checkride. Well, that's what I used to do, but I have these ideas from the old days. I wonder how people ever learned how fly back then
Not everybody wants to be an airline pilot, and students should understand pitch attitude before they understand the ASI.
I'd be extremely disapointed. Max demonstrated crosswind component in a warrior is, believe it or not, 17knts!
You missed a great learning opportunity. I hope you don't get to see a crosswind like that for the first time when you are on your own. I assume your instructor is up to that sort of crosswind himself of course
PS I went and rented a warrior today, first time I'd flown one in six months. Tried coming in at 75knts over the threshold and floated halfway down the runway. Then I included the ASI in my scan up to the beginning of the flare, and booger me, I bounced it! Just goes to show your eyes should be outside and not inside when you are close to the ground (well, mine should be outside
). On my 63 knt approaches, which were very nice indeed, I was a maverick and reduced power to idle abeam the numbers and I did not stall, spin, crash or even - perish the thought - have to add power at any stage before landing.I think it's smart to ensure a student can demonstrate a stabilised approach at +- 5 knts before solo. I also think a student should be able to fly the pattern/circuit with the airspeed indicator covered (and be +- 5knts of all appropriate airspeeds) before he gets signed off for checkride. Well, that's what I used to do, but I have these ideas from the old days. I wonder how people ever learned how fly back then
Not everybody wants to be an airline pilot, and students should understand pitch attitude before they understand the ASI.
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Lots of useful stuff so far, pick the one that works for you!
Do not confuse approach speed with threashold speed, the two are different.
As a matter of interest a 10% increase in threashold speed will result in a 21% increase in landing distance!
Also, do not 'force' the a/c to land, it will land when there is no lift left to hold it up! This is of course the reason for matching elevator input to rate of sink in the hold off.
Warriors may have nose wheels but you should aim to land on the back two every time.
Lastly there is only ONE correct flap setting for landing, and that is 'landing flap' (MAX in other words!)
Enjoy
ICN
Do not confuse approach speed with threashold speed, the two are different.
As a matter of interest a 10% increase in threashold speed will result in a 21% increase in landing distance!
Also, do not 'force' the a/c to land, it will land when there is no lift left to hold it up!
This is of course the reason for matching elevator input to rate of sink in the hold off.Warriors may have nose wheels but you should aim to land on the back two every time.
Lastly there is only ONE correct flap setting for landing, and that is 'landing flap' (MAX in other words!)
Enjoy
ICN
Moderator
I had a lot of trouble landing when I was at your stage, and had this cured by an observant instructor, who suggested I sit on a cushion. Onya Nick!
Here's some tips from someone with a few thousand hours of teaching people to land various types of Cherokees.
1. Follow the POH, the guys that wrote it know best, and that is what the insurance company will go by when deciding whether or not you have been negligent or just unlucky in the event of a landing accident. 65 kts is the correct approach speed with full flap in the Warrior.
2. Where to focus...about 10deg above the horizon is good once you are over the numbers. Right through the touch and go. Humans have huge amounts of peripheral vision which you can use to judge height and speed. Don't focus onto the runway or you simply can't judge these things.
3. Don't chase the needles, learn to do the approach by the attitude and feel of the controls, and then use the ASI to confirm that you are trimmed correctly. Then one day if a bee decides to commit suicide in your pitot tube you will have no worries.
4. In the flare forget the ASI, use enough back pressure to keep the gap between the nose and the end of the runway constant. Focus up! About 2 inches workes for me at my height, but this varies with individuals. You are not raising the nose rather than lowering the tail, think back to stalling and the gradual back movement of the control column. That's what you are aiming to achieve when you land. And that is where correct seat height is essential, in my case I couldn't maintain that gap because all I could see in the flare was a facefull of instruments, and I'm not that little, 5 foot 8. One cushion saved my career when I was ready to give up!
5. Don't try too hard. Let the aeroplane land in its own good time. Many students try to "force" it onto the ground, often this is accompanied by a rapid relaxation of the back pressure when the wheels touch the ground (a big no-no). If there's not much runway left, go around.
6. Keep it straight with rudder.
7. Keep it straight and keep the focus up.
8. Keep it straight. It's just as easy to land on the centrline than anywhere else on the runway, and much safer.
9. Keep that focus up right through the touch and go.
10. Applying power in the flare can lead to a marked yaw left. and can take the inexperienced unawares. Not needed in the Warrior. Ever noticed that people always run off the runway to the left in aircraft with props that rotate clockwise from cockpit? Keep it straight!
11. Watch the experts. Seagulls are easy to observe because they seem to land in slow motion. In the absence of seagulls, ducks make good flying instructors too.
Good luck!
Here's some tips from someone with a few thousand hours of teaching people to land various types of Cherokees.
1. Follow the POH, the guys that wrote it know best, and that is what the insurance company will go by when deciding whether or not you have been negligent or just unlucky in the event of a landing accident. 65 kts is the correct approach speed with full flap in the Warrior.
2. Where to focus...about 10deg above the horizon is good once you are over the numbers. Right through the touch and go. Humans have huge amounts of peripheral vision which you can use to judge height and speed. Don't focus onto the runway or you simply can't judge these things.
3. Don't chase the needles, learn to do the approach by the attitude and feel of the controls, and then use the ASI to confirm that you are trimmed correctly. Then one day if a bee decides to commit suicide in your pitot tube you will have no worries.
4. In the flare forget the ASI, use enough back pressure to keep the gap between the nose and the end of the runway constant. Focus up! About 2 inches workes for me at my height, but this varies with individuals. You are not raising the nose rather than lowering the tail, think back to stalling and the gradual back movement of the control column. That's what you are aiming to achieve when you land. And that is where correct seat height is essential, in my case I couldn't maintain that gap because all I could see in the flare was a facefull of instruments, and I'm not that little, 5 foot 8. One cushion saved my career when I was ready to give up!
5. Don't try too hard. Let the aeroplane land in its own good time. Many students try to "force" it onto the ground, often this is accompanied by a rapid relaxation of the back pressure when the wheels touch the ground (a big no-no). If there's not much runway left, go around.
6. Keep it straight with rudder.
7. Keep it straight and keep the focus up.
8. Keep it straight. It's just as easy to land on the centrline than anywhere else on the runway, and much safer.
9. Keep that focus up right through the touch and go.
10. Applying power in the flare can lead to a marked yaw left. and can take the inexperienced unawares. Not needed in the Warrior. Ever noticed that people always run off the runway to the left in aircraft with props that rotate clockwise from cockpit? Keep it straight!
11. Watch the experts. Seagulls are easy to observe because they seem to land in slow motion. In the absence of seagulls, ducks make good flying instructors too.
Good luck!
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T&G
Recommend you discuss your approach with the instrcutor before you get in the air. Finals is not the time to have an arguement about the wisdom of using POH/FM speeds vs the schools preferred speeds. Agree with your instructor what speeds you will fly the approach before going out to the a/c.
Best wishes
Recommend you discuss your approach with the instrcutor before you get in the air. Finals is not the time to have an arguement about the wisdom of using POH/FM speeds vs the schools preferred speeds. Agree with your instructor what speeds you will fly the approach before going out to the a/c.
Best wishes