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Simming before PPL

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Simming before PPL

Old 7th Nov 2021, 04:39
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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I one had a student who was convinced that he already knew how to fly because he had 1000 hrs on MS Flight Sim. When I suggested that was actually not very good preparation he was quite offended so on the first lesson I flew us to the practice area and said I am going to fly a steep turn, enter and recover from slow flight and do a power off stall and recovery. After doing that I said you go ahead and do the same sequence since you seem convinced you already know how to do this it should not be hard for you Not surprisingly it did not go very well at all. After I had taken control over for the third time he turned to me genuinely puzzled why the sim experience did not translate to real thing.

I told him the sims are a game and real flying is not a game. We then spent the rest of the first lesson on attitudes and movements and the light went on. He never touched the sim again and turned out to be a good PPL.
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 08:44
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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I think ELMS makes a valid point in that itís dangerous to assume everybody around the world (or even Europe) has a flight deck access policy that is a clone of that enacted by the UK or the USA..

To ELMS:

With my ex-777 hat on (I had a few thousands hours on the machine) Iíve yet to see any PC based sim that accurately replicates the handlingÖ..switches, etc may well all be roughly in the right place, yes you can run checklists, but thereís a lot left missing that simply canít be replicated at home. Even a very expensive fixed base trainer as used at times in some training establishments donít really cut itÖas somebody mentioned upthread when flying there are some subtle cues/effects provided by motion (real or simulated) that cannot be replicated in something stuck to the floor or desk.

With my ex instructor (basic jet) hat on I can see you have been offered, for free, lots of good advice from many previous posters. Above all early dayís itís all about attitude, in more ways than oneÖ.
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 09:56
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Look let's be clear about this. You cannot learn much about how to fly an aeroplane at home on a PC based SIM. And most of what you do learn is wrong or at least inappropriate for what you'll do in a small training aeroplane. It's a waste of your time and money - which would be better saved towards flying lessons. But it's fun to play computer games - that's ok.
There are two reasons why you can't learn that way1. Sims just aren't good enough (lots of posts above say this)
2. You need an instructor to teach you which you don't have at home (not so many posts have made this point)

I wonder if the OP has heard back from his aeroclub yet - I'd expect that first lesson to be booked by now. Perhaps he can let us know how it goes...
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 12:22
  #44 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
I think ELMS makes a valid point in that itís dangerous to assume everybody around the world (or even Europe) has a flight deck access policy that is a clone of that enacted by the UK or the USA...
Kind words, still, spade if by any other name... Having jump seated on some of the mentioned for various reasons and positions of authority, i.a.w. the applicable rules, I'd bet half bitcoin there are no provisions for general pax without at least prior security vetting and registration. As well, the UK rules apply to anyone entering the UK airspace AFAIK. Sure, some of the Mediterranean rim companies have a reasonable arrangement for active crew or airline employees, but even that is not without restrictions.

Yet there is a nice point in this. A safety card provided to supernumerary flight deck occupants is a neat way of complying with the requirement for the safety briefing before flight. It's existence alone does not yet imply bringin general public visitors for a ride is de rigueur. No egos hurt by the OP wrongly assuming the opposite, but it is the exact problem flight simming will bring - putting cart before the ox and being perfectly clueless about it.

Hopefully by the time he touches a real airplane, the flight simming hobby will slide backwards due to the sheer excitement and learning opportunities the physical experience brings.

As was the case for many.





Feeling old, yet?


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Old 7th Nov 2021, 13:33
  #45 (permalink)  
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NaFenn
Completely agree with you. Sims can help you to remember flows and understand airplane systems only if the airplane is correctly replicated which is not always the case. Sim also made me familiar with things like TAF, METAR, NOTAMs and phraseology. That's what I believe the sim is there for as much as you use it correctly. I mean these more theoretical aspects. Sims won't tell you how to actually fly the airplane. It's quite easy to fly an airplane in heavy turbulence in the sim but how is it in real life when your head and your arms that are holding the control column and the throttle are shacking all over the place and you can't see anything? I don't know. How to recover from stall? I don't know. How to land? Many pilots can give you a throughout explanation and you can always try to practise it in the sim but will I be able to do it in real life? I don't know.
How will I be able to do it? By listening to my instructor.

Big Pistons Forever
I wonder how it's gonna be for me

Wiggy
I think ELMS makes a valid point in that it’s dangerous to assume everybody around the world (or even Europe) has a flight deck access policy that is a clone of that enacted by the UK or the USA..
In fact, I never went able to access the flight deck from US or UK based operators.

I’ve yet to see any PC based sim that accurately replicates the handling…..switches, etc may well all be roughly in the right place, yes you can run checklists, but there’s a lot left missing that simply can’t be replicated at home.
Yes and the PMDG 777 is a great example. I went able to find much stuff that was not matching the manuals. There are also things that just can't be simulated like ACARS, SATCOM or even the cabin crew or the fire trucks in emergencies. Talking about checklists, the CCD is not working and is being replaced by your mouse because it would be quite difficult for simmers to do it like in real life. I highly doubt the PMDG handles as the real 777 would. I would say 90% of the things being simulated are well replicated despite all the glitches. Most real 777 pilots I heard giving their opinion about the add on were impressed and quite surprised by how much things were close to real life. I know a few pilots use it to practise flow and stuff like this but it will never replace curriculum.

With my ex instructor (basic jet) hat on I can see you have been offered, for free, lots of good advice from many previous posters. Above all early day’s it’s all about attitude, in more ways than one…[img]file:///C:/Users/Noah/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/img].
Yes, tons of great advice. That's why being curious and listening to others whether they are or aren't more experienced than me will make me able to improve constantly because you will never stop learning even with thousands of hours of flying. I'm still quite surprised by the attitude of some people here saying things that I never said and comparing me to a duck quacking.

Heston
You need an instructor to teach you which you don't have at home (not so many posts have made this point)
I just can't count the hundreds of times I were doing things in the sim and wondering am I doing it right? The only way to get the answer is to ask or see how real pilots would do in a similar situation.

I wonder if the OP has heard back from his aeroclub yet - I'd expect that first lesson to be booked by now. Perhaps he can let us know how it goes...
Definitely planning to do it.
Now I got a question coming to my mind.
I visited 2 aeroclubs.
The first one, we did one hour and the roads, arrived at the site, there was no one. He said he thought we were coming to another date and admitted he didn't place it correctly on his agenda after realising messages we exchanged with each other were saying something different to his agenda. Fine, we came back a week later.
The second, we went here and they put me in contact with an instructor saying he would take me for an initiation flight. When trying to find a date he didn't answer my messages. I came back to him later and he said he was not answering me because the weather wasn't appropriate. I said fine, when do you want to fly? He said I am on vacation I'll get back to you as soon as I come back. Never heard of him since...
Now I asked by email for an inscription in France. Got a form from them I had to fill out. I gave them the form completed and never got an answer. Sent them another email, no answer. My friend flying there asked them what was going on, they said it was a normal process and they would come back to me really soon. Two weeks later, nothing from them.
So here comes my question: do aeroclubs care about having new students? It just feels like they don't want me to pay them to learn how to fly.

FlightDetent
Hopefully by the time he touches a real airplane, the flight simming hobby will slide backwards due to the sheer excitement and learning opportunities the physical experience brings.
Believe it or not, I hate flight simming. It's just boring but unfortunately, my parents aren't rich enough to give me immediate access to real flying so instead, I'm simming. I think with time, my simming hobby is likely to slowly slide backwards.
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 16:30
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ELMS77W View Post
NaFenn
Completely agree with you. Sims can help you to remember flows and understand airplane systems only if the airplane is correctly replicated which is not always the case. Sim also made me familiar with things like TAF, METAR, NOTAMs and phraseology. That's what I believe the sim is there for as much as you use it correctly. I mean these more theoretical aspects. Sims won't tell you how to actually fly the airplane. It's quite easy to fly an airplane in heavy turbulence in the sim but how is it in real life when your head and your arms that are holding the control column and the throttle are shacking all over the place and you can't see anything? I don't know. How to recover from stall? I don't know. How to land? Many pilots can give you a throughout explanation and you can always try to practise it in the sim but will I be able to do it in real life? I don't know.
How will I be able to do it? By listening to my instructor.

Big Pistons Forever
I wonder how it's gonna be for me
.
Please do report on how your first flight in a real airplane goes. Despite the (deserved) negativity of the posts on this thread I do honestly believe that the posters want you to succeed

BPF.
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 17:22
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Personally I think itís wonderful that you are about to learn to fly, especially at aged 19. Your experience with two local schools is indicative of the appalling standards that some schools operate to, be prepared for it.

On flight instructor courses I teach two aspects which I claim are unique to my courses, Customer Service and Duty of Care. Some of the respondents to your initial post would do well to dwell on both aspects themselves.

Of course you will pick up bad habits from flying a simulator but so what. Car drivers brake with their right foot only but that habit doesn't prevent a FI teaching them how to use both brakes to control an aircraft. All new students try to taxi steer the aircraft with aileron but again any FI can teach them not to. The natural reaction in a well developed wing drop stall is to pull back when you get a windshield full of ground but again any decent FI can overcome that with proper teaching.

The problem is that too many FIís (apart from not understanding customer service) can only instruct to Ďfly by numbersí with a rehearsed script. Teaching is a creative art and every student is a unique product of biological engineering, put those together and you should be able to teach anyone to fly, regardless of their limitations,bad habits etc..

In response to your icing questions

Holdover Times depend on the type of precipitation falling ( if any) after de icing and obviously time. On a few occasions Iíve had to return to stand after 30 minutes due to the temperature and falling snow (as an example of the most limiting time).

I know what the mix of fluid and water and the temperature is because the handling agent gives me a copy of the deicing operation, itís from this that I can work out the holdover time.

Good luck with your training
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 18:09
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FlightDetent View Post

Feeling old, yet?
Definitely, I had the much cruder version in B&W on my ZX81.

G
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 18:47
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Recently qualified PPL here, who used a home sim a fair bit. I'll stick to the points that I think will help you in your initial training.

Your thirst for knowledge and experience has lead you to playing with sims, this is really positive. Apply that same energy to studying the PPL syllabus and absorbing what your instructor tells you and you'll do well.
Forget all the jet stuff. You need that capacity for other things, like using a whizz wheel, quick mental maths, acronyms and rules of thumb.
Don't mention sims at the flight club or to your instructor, at least until you are nearly qualified and have earned their trust via many hours of safe flying & sound decision making.
Many pilots are luddites at heart with a healthy distrust of technology, not least because it might try to kill them in the air!

Nevertheless, I feel some carefully targeted sim time at home can help you to achieve specific learning objectives. Most of the relevant objectives are in the second half of the typical PPL syllabus.
The sim can't teach you handling beyond the absolute basics and may actually hinder you in that area. You might as well use autopilot in the sim.
The sim can't teach you how to land, you might as well start and finish each sim session at circuit height above your home airfield.

Get a sim that replicates your home airfield, training area and aircraft as closely as possible. I recommend P3D with the A2A Cherokee and ORBX TrueEarth scenery. This will cost a bit of money, but less than a single hour's lesson.
You need all the landmarks in your local area, especially chimneys and wind turbines, major roads and rivers, accurate boundaries for forests and settlements. Don't bother with MSFS 2020.
An ultrawide monitor would be nice, otherwise you're stuck with using the hat switch to look around (and you must be looking >180 degrees all around, all the time).

In the sim you can practice the following:

- Inflight memory procedures and checks (FREDA, HASELL, pre landing, EFATO, PFL)
- Getting the correct sight picture at various points in the circuit
- Visual navigation and DR. Fly all your routes in the sim first, note what you should be seeing when you do them for real. Practice applying mid track correction and unplanned diversions with real-world wind.
- Operating the radios and nav aids using real-world VOR/DME/NDB frequencies. VOR tracking
- Communicating with ATC via VATSIM. Speaking to a real person, requesting and obtaining services and clearances and making position reports. The syntax and terminology used is generally accurate and you will build confidence on the radio.
- The small "Instrument Appreciation" component of a typical PPL syllabus

I haven't used the sim since qualifying, however I anticipate that I'll continue to fly unfamiliar routes prior to embarking "for real".

Last edited by MidlifeCrises; 7th Nov 2021 at 19:27.
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 19:35
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer View Post
Definitely, I had the much cruder version in B&W on my ZX81.

G
I have fond memories of something similar on my Amstrad CPC (green screen only ), thankfully things have moved on somewhat. I would post a more representative pic but unfortunately I don't have the requisite 10 posts yet!
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 20:28
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ELMS77W View Post

Definitely planning to do it.

So here comes my question: do aeroclubs care about having new students? It just feels like they don't want me to pay them to learn how to fly.

.

You may have had your first real flying lesson!
At least in the UK at the moment the answer is No, aeroclubs don't really care about having new students. Particularly ones who say they are "definitely planning to do it".
They'll care when you ask to book a lesson.
Folk at flying clubs can tell good strong enquiries from general interest, tyre-kicker ones. They know they'll waste loads of time if they don't do this triage effectively.
You'll get a better response if you appear to really mean it - I know this sounds like poor marketing on their side, and it is. But then they're probably at full capacity anyway.
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 22:06
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Instructors want to see you do exactly what and how they showed you to fly. They need to trust you to do nothing else. They will send you on solo flights when you are still a student looking for you and the aircraft and weather before.
The easiest way for you would be to forget the sim and honestly start from scratch at a school. When you are a newbie ATPL pilot later on and finally go to some airline sim check for a job they will tell you how THEY want it and then they want to see you do it their way. This might even vary between instructors. Be ready to just follow. It is a long way but it is fun too. Don't think you know anything better because of the sim. That was a game only.

Last edited by Less Hair; 7th Nov 2021 at 22:18.
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 23:02
  #53 (permalink)  
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BPF
Please do report on how your first flight in a real airplane goes.
Will do it.

FIC101
Thanks for your advice, thanks for answering my questions and enjoy your time on the forum!

Midlifecraises
Apply that same energy to studying the PPL syllabus and absorbing what your instructor tells you and you'll do well.
Passion is the thing that will keep energising me.

In the sim you can practice the following:
- Inflight memory procedures and checks (FREDA, HASELL, pre landing, EFATO, PFL)
- Getting the correct sight picture at various points in the circuit
- Visual navigation and DR. Fly all your routes in the sim first, note what you should be seeing when you do them for real. Practice applying mid track correction and unplanned diversions with real-world wind.
- Operating the radios and nav aids using real-world VOR/DME/NDB frequencies. VOR tracking
- Communicating with ATC via VATSIM. Speaking to a real person, requesting and obtaining services and clearances and making position reports. The syntax and terminology used is generally accurate and you will build confidence on the radio.
- The small "Instrument Appreciation" component of a typical PPL syllabus
Taking notes.

Heston
Alright so basically I will need to harass them if I want to get something form them.

Less Hair
This might even vary between instructors. Be ready to just follow.
This is what frustrates me the most. My instructor might tell me something that another one finds completely stupid but I still need to agree with mine just because it's mine and the other one is not.

Last edited by Pilot DAR; 7th Nov 2021 at 23:18. Reason: Made quotes legible
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 23:04
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FIC101 View Post
On flight instructor courses I teach two aspects which I claim are unique to my courses, Customer Service and Duty of Care. Some of the respondents to your initial post would do well to dwell on both aspects themselves.
I can assure you your 2 aspects are not unique to you.
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 23:39
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LTCTerry View Post
ELMS77W - the FAA defines five hazardous attitudes and provides tips on how to overcome them.



Here's my suggestion - stop with the sim. Go fly a glider. A lot. Get a glider license. Learn aerobatics. At this point you've trained yourself to look almost exclusively outside. Now go learn to fly an airplane.
My thoughts exactley- gliding is by far the best introduction to basic attitude flying..

I had a convo recently with a student who posted a picture of (Gasp!!) a malfunctioning AI in a piper and how it was going to stop him have his next flying lessson.

When asked why it would ground him-' "Because we were going to practice steep turns"!!!

I weep....

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Old 7th Nov 2021, 23:40
  #56 (permalink)  
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This is what frustrates me the most. My instructor might tell me something that another one finds completely stupid but I still need to agree with mine just because it's mine and the other one is not.
Don't worry about it, you won't know the difference, should there be one. Both instructors are teaching to an approved curriculum, and have your best interests and success at heart, even if their approaches are not identical. Your skill set at this point does not enable you to judge the quality of instruction, nor will it matter. The skills are very basic. When you're taking advanced bush flying training, you can consider how teaching methods suit you...

In the sim you can practice the following:
........
- Visual navigation and DR. Fly all your routes in the sim first, note what you should be seeing when you do them for real. ....
An element of this I do support is not the use of computer game simulators, but Google Earth. I'll admit, when I starter taking helicopter lessons, this was introduced to me (M my instructor didn't know I have 25 years of fixed wing flying experience - I did not talk that up!). Google Earth does allow you to visualize terrain and landmarks, useful if you're not used to that view. People may defend computer sim games this way, I have never played one, so have no opinion. But I do enjoy "traveling" with Google Earth.

Happily, when you begin your flight training, you'll be busy enough with, and interested in the real training material, you'll be eager to absorb it all as intended by the curriculum, and games will become that - just games. Step into the real world of piloting with us, and leave the games to those who will never fly. We pilots are demanding of pilot skill, because the environment can be very demanding, but it sure is fun! I did 1.5 hours this morning, of just bimbling, and touring around, seeing the sights of places I have not driven to so much because of the Covid. My things are changing while I'm not looking!

One other piece of advice: when you plan the day to go to the airport, try to plan a longer session that just your lesson - most of the day if you can. Just watch, and listen. Be very quietly present, you will absorb more. Many of us have being an "airport rat" as a part of our early heritage. It's surely not as easy these days, because of security, and that's a real shame, but, your being at the airport at all will expose you to the environment, and your eagerness will lead you to absorb quickly. Listen lots, smile lots, speak little. When you do speak, DO NOT DISCUSS SIMMING!, and telling people at the airport about cockpit visits will not lay a welcoming path for you either... just listen a lot...


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Old 8th Nov 2021, 01:43
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Every student I had that flew MSFS did very poorly. I have never touched a sim in my life, except the ones that cost millions of dollars.

Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 8th Nov 2021 at 17:42.
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Old 8th Nov 2021, 02:15
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ELMS77W View Post
NaFenn
Completely agree with you. Sims can help you to remember flows and understand airplane systems only if the airplane is correctly replicated which is not always the case. Sim also made me familiar with things like TAF, METAR, NOTAMs and phraseology. That's what I believe the sim is there for as much as you use it correctly. I mean these more theoretical aspects. Sims won't tell you how to actually fly the airplane. It's quite easy to fly an airplane in heavy turbulence in the sim but how is it in real life when your head and your arms that are holding the control column and the throttle are shacking all over the place and you can't see anything? I don't know. How to recover from stall? I don't know. How to land? Many pilots can give you a throughout explanation and you can always try to practise it in the sim but will I be able to do it in real life? I don't know.
How will I be able to do it? By listening to my instructor.
Sounds like you've got the right attitude mate, I hope you do well
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Old 8th Nov 2021, 04:22
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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To the OP,

When you went to the apparently disinterested schools, you didnít mention MSFS did you and your current virtual flying qualifications?

This thread starts with you stating you have taken some tests and licenses of PPL standard and that you even have an IR. It might be best not to say these things to an instructor at first!

I think the sentence that is worrying most people is

ĒI accept I canít land a 777 like a type rated pilot, or even a C172Ē.

I think the point is, you canít land a 777 or a C172 at all.

I have landed a number of different types of light aircraft, my nephew has a sim with a yoke, throttle etc levers and pedals.

I cannot land a light aircraft on his sim, in fact everything feels wrong and reacts wrong.
Very few skills are transferable between the two.

He can,.. heís practised for hours, learning how to land his sim, embedding muscle memory, adjusting to how it reacts to his inputs.
He can also fly and land all sorts of vintage aircraft on his sim.

so, he can land a sim, but not a real aircraft, I can land a real aircraft but not his sim.

If he ever wants to land a real aircraft he will have to overcome a lot of learnt behaviour thatís wrong.

The key point is, you can fly and land a sim.
You need to stop saying you can land a 777 or a light aircraft (ďthough not as well as a type rated pilotĒ !!)

I tried to fly a model aircraft once, thatís hard, also nothing like flying a real aircraft.

Sims, model aircraft, aircraftÖ all take skill to fly, lots of it, but all demonstrably completely different.

Your belief that you can land an aircraft because you can land your sim, is as wrong as a pilot could land your sim because they can land an aircraft.

You know how hard it is to land your sim, hard isnít it? You donít believe a pilot could do it without relearning a whole bunch of stuff do you?

If you like your sim, youíll love the true intricacies of a real aircraft, and itís a bit more serious when thereís no pause button, no lay-by to pull into when things are going badly, and you could get hurt if you miss things.

Hereís a simple for instance, when flying small aircraft in the sim, how often do you apply carb heat? That could really hurt if you forget in the air.


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Old 8th Nov 2021, 13:35
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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So you find yourself in every pilots' fantasy scenario: Both pilots ate the fish and we need a hero.

Do you trust the 100 hour PPL or the 2000 hour SIM guy who knows the buttons, the modes, the flap schedule and can auto-land the shit out of a 777 with his eyes closed?
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