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Simming before PPL

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Simming before PPL

Old 5th Nov 2021, 18:34
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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ELMS77W - the FAA defines five hazardous attitudes and provides tips on how to overcome them.

I can paraphrase one of them as "I know more than you do, so you can't tell me what to do." Here are my thoughts before you go take a look in the mirror:

A 777 pilot would think you are a gamer.

You have no clue about real flying, but you do have demonstrated repeated defensive responses to the advice being presented.

Your attitude will alienate instructors, club members, and fellow student pilots.

You are unwilling to listen to experienced people who truly know what they are doing trying to help you; after all, you can fly a 777 on a computer. Most of the people here don't have a wide-body jet type rating. Oh, wait. Neither do you. Oh, you've sim'd a Piper too. So, that makes it all good. (That's sarcasm.)

You are likely to end up paying much, much more to get to solo and to becoming a private pilot because of bad habits to overcome and an unwillingness to listen to the experts because you, after all are the chief pilot of Walter Mitty Air.

Here's my suggestion - stop with the sim. Go fly a glider. A lot. Get a glider license. Learn aerobatics. At this point you've trained yourself to look almost exclusively outside. Now go learn to fly an airplane.

If you can't break the negative superior attitude I'd have to agree with the comment that one day you'll be here complaining about too many instructors and no progress, blah, blah, blah.

Good luck!

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Old 5th Nov 2021, 19:23
  #22 (permalink)  
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Look, I'm not saying this is a Troll.
Yes, I thought about that Piper.Classique, but whether a troll or not, the advice is good and solid. Other real people, pilot want to be's, will be well served by it as they quietly read it to themselves!
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Old 5th Nov 2021, 19:32
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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The difference between real flying and playing with P3D or similar , no matter the numbers of hardware you can fit it , is like the difference between having [email protected] and watching it from the keyhole.
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Old 5th Nov 2021, 20:53
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Troll? How harsh. But Porteous Loopy is definitely making long lists for their fishing trip.
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Old 5th Nov 2021, 23:00
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kghjfg View Post
If you try and pick up a dropped wing with aileron in a real aircraft, you’ll stall the wing fully and it gets exciting.

The rudder isn’t stalled and you can use the secondary effect of yaw to pick the wing up.

I don’t know why that would need a thread of it’s own. That’s part of basic stall recovery.


I’d be interested if the OP was aware of this, if they’d even done any stall training to get their sim licences. I think them stating they have a sim IR is the most worrying bit tbh.
Standard Stall Recovery - Control Column centrally forward until symptoms stop, full power, roll wings level, climb away. Forget dropped wing until it is unstalled then use aileron. Using rudder while the aircraft is stalled is asking for trouble. That’s why it’s worth a thread of its own.

Last edited by rarelyathome; 6th Nov 2021 at 05:24.
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Old 5th Nov 2021, 23:11
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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You won't even learn what trim is using only some PC. 777 tested or not.
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 01:08
  #27 (permalink)  
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You are unwilling to listen to experienced people who truly know what they are doing trying to help you; after all, you can fly a 777 on a computer. Most of the people here don't have a wide-body jet type rating. Oh, wait. Neither do you. Oh, you've sim'd a Piper too. So, that makes it all good. (That's sarcasm.)
Never did I say you or any people there were wrong. I am just trying to share with you my thoughts and let professional pilots correct me if I am wrong.

I said "I don't think I could stop flying the 777 entirely though. I believe it's possible to do both at the same time" and now that I am taking a step back I do realise that it was quite an arrogant response but again I didn't say that you were wrong. This is what I believe (or believed) and that's why I'm writing it down here. If I'm wrong then say it and please tell me why. I think it's more constructive to get someone to be a bit more defensive than having a person who stupidly says yes all the time to everyone without asking questions.
I am always trying to be open-minded. Aviation is a humbling experience and if you become arrogant you won't go anywhere and this thread is a great example to demonstrate it.
Stopping all of a sudden from flying jets in the sim will be difficult for me because I love doing it and I have been doing it for years but if my instructor tells me that I should stop, then I will stop if necessary.


Yes, I thought about that Piper.Classique, but whether a troll or not, the advice is good and solid.
Believe it or not, I am not a troll. Just someone who's about to start his flight training and somehow it already started there...

Cheese us! That's at LFSJ Sedan-Douzy, right? Two hours' stiff driving from Brussels? Excuse me for becoming more and more sceptical. Yes, the hourly rate for the plane may be cheaper, and the French have a strong tradition of disciplined training, believing very much in self-control. But will the difference in rates make up for the road trips?

Also, be aware that a PPL gained in France may allow you to fly in Belgian airspace, but like as not you will learn the radio in French which is neither legal nor practical in the rest of Europe - Belgium included. Get the facts straight before spending money!
Based on my calculations yes. Now I took months to take that decision, consulted tons of people and I was really hesitating between the two. Also, my friend who's flying here is living in Charleroi so we would most of the time make our way together reducing car fuel prices quite a bit.
If you are convinced that I'm making a bad decision, then I don't know who I should be listening to.
------------------------------------------

Just to clarify: I know I can't fly an airplane and can't land a 777 nor even a C172 like a type rated pilot would do. I'm conscious about the fact that most of the guys here are way much more experienced than me and I am not trying to teach them how to fly their airplanes just based on my desktop simulator experience. What I thought before opening this thread was that my flight sim experience could help me during my training and my career as an airline pilot.

Short story :
Whenever I am travelling, I write a small letter and send it to the flight deck. This letter basically tells the pilots I want to join them during the flight if they get time. Once, the captain who was a type rated instructor in Brussels Airlines took me in the flight deck shortly before leaving the blocks. He asked me tons of questions about myself and then proposed me to do the comms. I was quite surprised by that proposition. I was about to say no but he didn't even give me the time to do it. He showed me the PTT and gave me the headset and told me that we would shortly switch to Langen Radar when entering Germany. I asked for the callsign and he wrote it on a paper that he gave me after the flight for memory. This is how I did my first and my last communications with real ATC from the climb all the way down to the terminal. All the time they both told me that they were impressed by my radio communication, saying that I don't make common mistakes that many students do. All of that wouldn't have been possible without practising in the sim. There are other reasons why I thought simming could help for my courses, mostly based on outcomes coming from your trained colleagues or student pilots already flying. A few people think that I'm trolling and probably won't believe that story. That's your choice.

Like I said hundreds of times, I am consciously reading every single one of everyone's posts and will start my training with a different mind than I would if people here wouldn't have mentioned my flight MSFS experience. I do not intend to prioritise my flight sim habits over advice from experts if it turns out that the way I am flying airplanes isn't correct.
If I was the king in aviation, I don't think I would be there inquiring...

Last edited by Pilot DAR; 6th Nov 2021 at 13:08. Reason: fixed quote text colour so it could be read
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 11:01
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Last chap I sent first solo who was an avid Microsoft ‘airline pilot’ went in 7 hours. I cannot say it hampered him in anyway, apart from a poor understanding of maintaining aircraft balance with the rudder.
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 12:39
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ELMS77W View Post
Short story :
Whenever I am travelling, I write a small letter and send it to the flight deck. This letter basically tells the pilots I want to join them during the flight if they get time. Once, the captain who was a type rated instructor in Brussels Airlines took me in the flight deck shortly before leaving the blocks. He asked me tons of questions about myself and then proposed me to do the comms. I was quite surprised by that proposition. I was about to say no but he didn't even give me the time to do it. He showed me the PTT and gave me the headset and told me that we would shortly switch to Langen Radar when entering Germany. I asked for the callsign and he wrote it on a paper that he gave me after the flight for memory. This is how I did my first and my last communications with real ATC from the climb all the way down to the terminal. All the time they both told me that they were impressed by my radio communication, saying that I don't make common mistakes that many students do.
Hillarious!! Amazing how easy it is to get past the locked door policy in MS sims! ZZZZzzzzzz. Dreamer.
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 13:26
  #30 (permalink)  
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then proposed me to do the comms.
Actually over the air? That does require a radio operator's license.....

let professional pilots correct me if I am wrong
I do not intend to prioritise my flight sim habits over advice from experts if it turns out that the way I am flying airplanes isn't correct.
Based upon the replies you have received, I think the "if you're wrong" element has been established - You're wrong about this.

What I thought before opening this thread was that my flight sim experience could help me during my training and my career as an airline pilot.
Fair enough. But, the information offered to you has shone a different light on the topic. The very most important personal quality a student pilot has, and an airline pilot has, is the willingness to take direction as it is offered, and not challenge authority. Tens of thousands of hours of piloting experience has collectively provided very authoritative advice for you here, simply out of a desire to encourage (in the right direction) an aspiring pilot - that's what we do here, we support and promote piloting. No one here will be your instructor nor second crew member (the odds are just too great of that!), so no one is personally affected by the decisions you make, nor your conduct as a student, nor a pilot. What you do in your life, is what you do, no one here knows anything other than what you say. You don't have to impress anyone here with your willingness to follow authority - 'doesn't matter.... But, experienced pilots here are telling you that the learning path choices you're making for yourself are not in your best interests - for free!

People make it through in life, even when stepping on their own shoelaces, it just takes them longer, costs them more, and the trip sometimes, hey, life is life, not everyone does it the same way... But... Chief pilots, when considering which candidate to hire, really do look to avoid hiring the type of pilot who bucks authority, and steps on their own shoelaces - so that will be where your career advancement will stop. Why work double hard toward a stop, instead of working wisely toward a path forward?

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Old 6th Nov 2021, 13:58
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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I love threads like this (and let's face it they appear pretty frequently). Why?
Because they remind me of what an arrogant know it all I was when I was young - and then I think that I didn't turn out too bad after all
Mind you PCs and home Sims didn't exist then.
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 14:11
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Any real simulator is certified for a specific role. Game simulator advertisements claim a lot like being "developed" or "tested" by pilots. But this has no real world instructional value. It might give you some vague idea but it is no instructional tool and might even lead to wrong directions or bad habits. Whenever you want to get into real flying do real flying. Flight schools have PC sort of simulators that are useful but might be considered boring by gamers.
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 14:11
  #33 (permalink)  
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Because they remind me of what an arrogant know it all I was when I was young - and then I think that I didn't turn out too bad after all
Haha! Me too! But, it didn't take long for some wise and experienced pilots to straighten me out. Back then it was mostly done in person, including turning their back and walking away from me. But, now, in the computer age, there's a need to translate that into typed posts....
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 15:41
  #34 (permalink)  

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I said "I don't think I could stop flying the 777 entirely though. I believe it's possible to do both at the same time" and now that I am taking a step back I do realise that it was quite an arrogant response but again I didn't say that you were wrong. This is what I believe (or believed) and that's why I'm writing it down here
It did not sound arrogant to me on the first read, nor does it now. Unlike the posts that followed, pointing fingers at what you did not say.

Keep your chin up, but for heaven's sake do take the good advice written by others here (despite its unnecessary wrapping).
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 16:35
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ELMS77W View Post

So my questions :
1. Is there an EASA similar document?
2. Why so many different tables for the same fluid type?
3. How do you know which type of fluid is being applied to your aircraft? (or which type of surface the fluid is being applied on)

Hope I was clear despite my poor English
1. Not sure.
2. Because the fluid is made by different companies and they certify their own tables for their fluid. So a type 4 from one company maybe different from a type 4 from a different company. Not very different, but it could be a couple of minutes here or there.
There are also generic tables, which maybe better suited for simming.
3. The ice team tells you what they used, including time of first application, and ratio of fluid 100% or 75%.
You can normaly get that info from the ground crew prior to starting the process so you can do the numbers before de-icing starts.
They de-ice all the iced areas, but tend to only anti-ice wings and the tail.
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 18:47
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Dear ELMS77W
I am not sure which world you live in, but its not the real world. You are playing a computer game, that's all you are doing. You are not flying an AEROPLANE.
Real Flight simulators are very useful tools, to practice emergencies and develop specialist skills, they are not toys.
The problem with young people like this is that you think this sort of roll play replaces real knowledge and real skills, which it does not. Its not real world, in the real world people get killed or badly hurt because somebody screws up because they feel invincible as the toy game does not kill them.
Yes learn to fly properly in the real world, with an experienced instructor who knows what he is doing!
***
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 19:56
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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ELMS77W

You need to forget everything you think you have “learnt” on your home computer, you are not a pilot and have never landed an aircraft, the techniques and feel of a real aircraft cannot be replicated in a simulator. In the same way someone who plays “call of duty” has not been in combat you have not been in an aircraft.

As an ex military instructor, airline TRE and PPL instructor I have seen many simmers who think they have some ability who have no ability whatsoever and even had a couple tell me I am teaching them wrongly by telling them to look out of the windows…

I strongly suspect you are a troll as your story about being on the flightdeck and making radio calls would be unprofessional in the extreme.

rant over.
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Old 6th Nov 2021, 21:06
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Slimming before your aviation medical is often advantageous though.
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 01:19
  #39 (permalink)  
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FIC101
Last chap I sent first solo who was an avid Microsoft ‘airline pilot’ went in 7 hours. I cannot say it hampered him in anyway, apart from a poor understanding of maintaining aircraft balance with the rudder.
In my opinion, it really depends on how you're using your sim. I think I will quickly find out with my instructor if whether or not simming was good for me. This makes me even more impatient to start flying in real life.

pilotmike
Hillarious!! Amazing how easy it is to get past the locked door policy in MS sims! ZZZZzzzzzz. Dreamer.
Many companies allow people to go in the flight deck under certain conditions. Brussels Airlines accepted me multiple times, they even have a paper saying "you are in the cockpit" and a quick briefing about how to use the oxygen mask, reminding you it's prohibited to smoke, not speak to the pilots unless they are speaking to you, sterile cockpit rules, follow the captain in case of an evac and etc. Companies that accepted me: Beeline, TAP and Air France. They also accepted a friend of mine during a Jet Air flight. Most of them stopped doing it after the beginning of the pandemic. They are more likely to accept you if you kindly ask the cabin crew to give the letter you wrote for the pilots. It never worked when coming in and saying hey I want to fly with the pilots. Companies where I know it's strictly prohibited except on the ground: Ryanair, Emirates, Lufthansa, KLM, Czech Airlines, Air Malta, LOT, Easyjet. The excuses I sometimes got flying with Brussels or TAP: A learner is in the flight deck we don't have any seat avail / we're flying in a thunderstorm area / we have a delay and don't have time for that / no response.
Wait. You're learning something new from a simmer. It's impossible, you are the expert and I am the newbie who knows NOTHING about aviation. I should be lying that's the only explanation... Ask your type-rated and experienced colleagues flying for these companies they will tell you.
I'm wondering who's being arrogant here...

Pilot DAR
Actually over the air? That does require a radio operator's license.....
I don't know. That guy would probably have been in serious trouble if something happened during that flight.
You're probably 100% sure I'm lying and trolling... I know what I did, this is a fact and I can't do anything about it.

But... Chief pilots, when considering which candidate to hire, really do look to avoid hiring the type of pilot who bucks authority
Procedures are there for a reason. I don't have the ability to create procedures that are safer than the chief pilots' ones. I don't want to crash an airplane and kill hundreds of passengers. So I don't see any reason to bypass procs.

But, experienced pilots here are telling you that the learning path choices you're making for yourself are not in your best interests - for free!
The advice coming from them is really constructive and important. I will remember it when I start flying but the one I'm mostly going to listen to is my instructor as he's the one I will talk to in person and the one who knows definitely more about my flying skills than most of the ones here making suppositions and arrogantly believing they are 100% right on everything they are saying, included and especially the fact that I couldn't have been in any flight deck during a flight.

Less Hair
Flight schools have PC sort of simulators that are useful but might be considered boring by gamers.
The same simulators we're using at home?

FlightDetent
It did not sound arrogant to me on the first read, nor does it now. Unlike the posts that followed, pointing fingers at what you did not say.

Keep your chin up, but for heaven's sake do take the good advice written by others here (despite its unnecessary wrapping).
Well, I clearly showed them I was unlikely to follow this advice. Naturally, they made the conclusion that I wouldn't listen to my instructor at all. I'm glad you didn't find this arrogant
I will definitely take their comments into consideration though.

rmcdonal
1. Not sure.
2. Because the fluid is made by different companies and they certify their own tables for their fluid. So a type 4 from one company maybe different from a type 4 from a different company. Not very different, but it could be a couple of minutes here or there.
There are also generic tables, which maybe better suited for simming.
3. The ice team tells you what they used, including time of first application, and ratio of fluid 100% or 75%.
You can normaly get that info from the ground crew prior to starting the process so you can do the numbers before de-icing starts.
They de-ice all the iced areas, but tend to only anti-ice wings and the tail.
Almost forgot we were initially talking about deicing. Thanks a lot for your clear explanation. This definitely answers my question.

Orionsbelt
You are not flying an AEROPLANE.
I said before: "None of my flights online led to a crash but in the sim, there are tons of factors that are irrelevant but aren't IRL (icing for e.g.).", "I know I can't fly an airplane and can't land a 777 nor even a C172 like a type rated pilot would do.", "Even though it's not near a real PPL exam"
So yeah, I think I agree with you.

The problem with young people like this is that you think this sort of roll play replaces real knowledge and real skills
I said before: "I do not intend to prioritise my flight sim habits over advice from experts if it turns out that the way I am flying airplanes isn't correct.", "I know that training is always the first priority. If my instructor teaches me something I'll definitely not come in and say hey that's not what I learnt in the sim"
So no, I don't think it's my case. Other young people might be in the case though but not everyone. Thanks for your advice.

Icanseeclearly
I strongly suspect you are a troll as your story about being on the flightdeck and making radio calls would be unprofessional in the extreme.
Completely understandable. Don't know what are the regulations about it. Maybe he was allowed to do it? I have no idea.
I'm not trolling (definitely what a troll would say). If trolls take their time to make incredibly long answers to almost everyone like this and during now 4 days, then they should have got nothing better to do in their lives for sure.

Maoraigh1
Slimming before your aviation medical is often advantageous though.
Too late for me, I passed Class 1 about a year ago.
It's about to be expired but I don't really care since I only need class 2 to for PPL.
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Old 7th Nov 2021, 03:06
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Flying in a sim before actual training can be beneficial - however theres a couple of things you need to bear in mind:

1. Flying a basic trainer in real llife is very different to flying in a simulator. The technique that you use in a sim won't work in the plane - listen to what your instructor tells you and follow it! I've had issues with sim students previously who spend way too much time looking inside at instruments in a VFR trainer because "its the propper way to fly"... it isn't.

2. Forget IFR procedures for a while, being able to follow a NAVAID will be beneficial eventually... but it won't help you read a map.

3. "But in the sim" won't fly with an instructor... they're telling you things you need to hear/follow - Don't discount that information because "but in the sim", you'll be wasting your money and their time.
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