Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

EASA SEP revalidation by exp. microlights

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

EASA SEP revalidation by exp. microlights

Old 7th Feb 2021, 18:24
  #21 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Baleares
Posts: 67
Bump. Can anbody help me out with the problem of clause "(a) the aircraft matches the definition and criteria of the respective Part-FCL aircraft category, class, and type ratings;"?

How can a microlight match the definition of an SEP?

Perhaps this is simple, but this is very clause is being used as the reason I am being told by a Spanish AESA instructor that I cannot use a microlight to build hours for revalidation of my PPL SEP rating. She is telling me in no uncertain terms that a microlight aircraft does not match the criteria of the class/type of my SEP rating. I think she is wrong by shear dint of numbers of people telling me otherwise, but I would like a clear, rational explanation and clarification of this clause!

Many thanks to anybody who is willing to help!

baleares is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2021, 19:43
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 385
There is no difference between a fixed wing Microlight (Uitralite) and a ICAO recognized type (Part - 21). A microlight is differentiated in being constrained by its permissible maximum take off weight and the maximum scheduled stall speed at that weight, nothing else. However some are confused (your Spanish instructor) because owing to history most Microlights had flexible cloth wings and were operated by weight shift, they are still popular. This is why authorities stipulate 'three-axis' to count towards SEPL experience. There is no logical reason why a NAA should differentiate between a three axis fixed wing microlight and a ICAO SEPL aircraft for refresher training/test but they do, they just like to draw a line somewhere. It is worth noting that a pilots annual proficiency check in a Boeing 777 exempts them from the dual flight prescribed with an instructor to maintain their SEPL. You might well argue that that makes even less sense. It is also bizare that a current SEPL Flight Instructor with thousands of hours of instructing in SEPL is also required to have a training flight with another instructor, who may have only a dozen hours instructing, to maintain their SEPL.

No one I'm sure would compare a Cessna 150 with a Cessna 210 or even a Piper Malibu Mirage as being the same but the authorities lump them together as a SEPL class aircraft. So, a flight in a Cessna 150 covers you for the lot. Once again a product of history.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 8th Feb 2021 at 15:11.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 14th Feb 2021, 15:55
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: York
Posts: 8
Hi guys,My LAPL and medical expire in March,I have more than 12 hours PIC on a three axis microlight in the last 12 months but because of covid restrictions I haven't been able to do the hour with an instructor,will I be grounded until I can eventually fly with an instructor or are there any CAA exemptions regarding this?. With regard to the medical,are there any extentions for LAPL medicals? I am aware that AME's aren't doing class 2/LAPL medicals at the moment, I have made equiries with the CAA but the link regarding exemptions confused me a little

Thanks for any replies,

W
waffilator is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2021, 13:22
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 385
The LAPL does not expire. The experience requirement is a rolling assessment. The minimum of 1 hour training with an instructor is a total. This total is to be completed within the 24 month period before flying. There is no set date. So prior to flight you must look back to check whether you comply with each requirement. You can avoid all this by undertaking a flight with an examiner.

There is a lot that can happen between now and the end of March. All we can do is hold our breath. At the moment 'private flight' is not allowed. Expect little from the CAA on the LAPL, other national Licenses and the private grade medicals until there is a government announcement relaxing things. Now that the UK LAPL is a wholly UK licence restricted to UK airspace perhaps they may allow the use of a Medical Declaration. The same as the national PPL and the NPPL. They will have to do something with the massive backlog of Class 2 and LAPL medicals accruing. Note: the medical expiry date is the last day of the month.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2021, 18:54
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: York
Posts: 8
Thanks FL1ingfrog,my problem is obviously the hour with instructor bit,sounds like there is no way round it and I will have to get in line with everyone else for the 'essential' hour with an instructor.When I was forced to convert my old 1990's ppl I was advised the LAPL would be the cheaper route if nothing else other than the medical was likely to become a self certify set up,I'm hoping it goes that way soon,oh for the simpler days of 1990's general aviation!
waffilator is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2021, 22:54
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 385
When I was forced to convert my old 1990's ppl
You didn't convert your 1990s ICAO UK PPL to obtain a LAPL. In the past the CAA have been guilty of stating that it was a conversion but they were wrong to do so. If they took your PPL and didn't return it to you then ask for it back. It was issued to you for life. Hopefully you will still have your old PPL. If so you can solve the medical issue by making a 'Self Declaration'. The PPL privileges you should hold gives you all and more than the LAPL so why not. You will, of course, have to do a renewal test to reactivate your UK ICAO PPL but this will only require one problem to be solved. The Self Declaration is of course free! This saving should cover you renewal test.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2021, 10:40
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: York
Posts: 8
The ppl I had was a CAA ppl,obtained in 1994,I had a TMG rating on it and used it with the same privileges as an EASA ppl,but with the EASA juggernaut in full swing I had to replace it with something European two years ago,I think the change over date had been April 2015 but was deferred a couple of times. During my last medical the ame asked what medical I wanted which was when the confusion started, he said he couldn't do a medical for the CAA licence,only a LAPL or EASA ppl,so I went LAPL after we discussed what type of flying I did, we decided an EASA was probably not required and the LAPL medical was going to go self certification at some point, the confusion with Brexit muddied the water a bit so I went the LAPL route which has been fine for me so far...
waffilator is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2021, 16:16
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 385
...we decided an EASA was probably not required and the LAPL medical was going to go self certification at some point, the confusion with Brexit muddied the water a bit so I went the LAPL route which has been fine for me so far...
The LAPL medical requirement is unlikely to change to self certification, for that is not how the EU thinks and requires international agreement. The UK is no longer part of EASA and the UK is left with a pup. The UK LAPL gives no privileges since January 1st over and above the NPPL or the National PPL which you also hold. There is no reason for the CAA to maintain the EASA required restriction against NPPLs and non EASA PPLs. As you fly a Microlight there is no point for you to maintain anything other than self certification for flight within the UK.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2021, 18:27
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 338
Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
The LAPL does not expire. The experience requirement is a rolling assessment. The minimum of 1 hour training with an instructor is a total. This total is to be completed within the 24 month period before flying. There is no set date. So prior to flight you must look back to check whether you comply with each requirement. You can avoid all this by undertaking a flight with an examiner.

There is a lot that can happen between now and the end of March. All we can do is hold our breath. At the moment 'private flight' is not allowed. Expect little from the CAA on the LAPL, other national Licenses and the private grade medicals until there is a government announcement relaxing things. Now that the UK LAPL is a wholly UK licence restricted to UK airspace perhaps they may allow the use of a Medical Declaration. The same as the national PPL and the NPPL. They will have to do something with the massive backlog of Class 2 and LAPL medicals accruing. Note: the medical expiry date is the last day of the month.
I thought I knew where I was after reading this on SkyWise:

"Pilot Medical Declarations: Clarification

Following a rapid review we can today confirm that the less than 2,000kg aircraft category, with its reduced list of disqualifying conditions within a Pilot Medical Declaration (PMD), is still an option for national pilot licence holders (subject to the specified operational conditions). Existing PMDs remain valid for the type of licence(s) and aircraft weight limits specified at the time of a declaration.

Earlier this year, in seeking to resolve a longstanding difference between the advice and options for PMDs offered on our website, and the requirements of the Air Navigation Order (ANO), we aligned our website text and online form to that in the ANO. In hindsight we can see this has caused a lot of confusion and we would like to apologise for this. We have updated our website and are in the process of updating the relevant form. We will also be taking steps to regularise this situation for the benefit of those who use PMD in the GA community by issuing a formal exemption which we will keep under review, as we do with all exemptions.

SW2021/27"

However, having read what FlyingFrog has written and the CAA website, I am now unsure.

Can I continue to fly a UK-registered permit aircraft (non-part 21) in the UK with a UK issued LAPL until my current PMD (for up to 2000kg only) expires at age 70?
Forfoxake is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2021, 18:51
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 385
Now that the UK LAPL is a wholly UK licence restricted to UK airspace perhaps they may allow the use of a Medical Declaration.
Sorry that I mislead you when stating the above but yes you can.

From the CAA website:

A medical declaration (from 25th August 2016) is an affirmation of your medical ‘fitness to fly’ and may be used to exercise the privileges of a:

• UK Part-FCL Private Pilot Licence (PPL) to fly UK (G) registered Part 21 and non-Part 21 aircraft;
• UK Part-FCL Light Aircraft Pilots Licence (LAPL) to fly UK (G) registered Part 21 and non-Part 21 aircraft;

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 16th Feb 2021 at 19:26.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2021, 20:42
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: York
Posts: 8
Ok,so I can do the medical declaration for a LAPL?.Could I do a self declaration on my ppl if I got it revalidated,I'd prefer to use the ppl if I can use it to fly a three axis microlight (Eurostar) and count the hours toward revalidation of the ppl though it's not crucial, I could do the revalidation flight with an examinar every two years if I had to,thanks for all your input Fl1ingfrog
waffilator is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2021, 21:03
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 385
Yes you can and therefore maintain both the PPL and the LAPL simultaneously. The dual training flights/test and hours for the SEPL will also satisfy the requirements for the LAPL .

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 16th Feb 2021 at 21:23.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2021, 21:12
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: York
Posts: 8
Ok,thanks again,hopefully get the ppl sorted when we are allowed to fly again.
waffilator is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2021, 23:13
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 338
Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
Sorry that I mislead you when stating the above but yes you can.

From the CAA website:

A medical declaration (from 25th August 2016) is an affirmation of your medical ‘fitness to fly’ and may be used to exercise the privileges of a:

• UK Part-FCL Private Pilot Licence (PPL) to fly UK (G) registered Part 21 and non-Part 21 aircraft;
• UK Part-FCL Light Aircraft Pilots Licence (LAPL) to fly UK (G) registered Part 21 and non-Part 21 aircraft;
That's how I read it initially too. However, the page you quoted goes on to make a distinction between:

Holders of UK national licences only, to only fly aircraft no greater than 2000 kg MTOM
and
Holders of UK national and Part-FCL Licences, to fly any aircraft less than 5700kg MTOM

So my real question is does a UK issued Part-FCL LAPL now count as a UK national licence?
Forfoxake is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2021, 09:25
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 385
My reading of the CAA words is this;

If your private licence permits you to fly aeroplanes up to 5.700 Kg then you may continue to do so using a 'Self Declaration'. [a National and an ICAO PPL limit]
If your private licence limits you to fly aeroplanes up to 2000 Kg then you may continue to do so using a 'Self Declaration'. [a NPPL and LAPL limit}

In other words the Self Declaration does not change you licence private privileges for flight within the UK airspace: It is also usable with an IMC and and a Night rating. However, the Self Declaration does not support the IR.

The UK LAPL for the moment is now superfluous, because we already have the NPPL and the LAPL adds nothing more, but the CAA is yet to make an announcement on its future.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2021, 16:15
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Cotswolds
Posts: 201
Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
... The UK LAPL for the moment is now superfluous, because we already have the NPPL and the LAPL adds nothing more, ...
Except that a LAPL will allow the holder to fly a Part 21 aircraft in UK airspace, whereas an NPPL or a UK PPL will not.
Kemble Pitts is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2021, 18:22
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 385
EASA is no longer recognizing the UK LAPL. The restriction you highlight applies to 'EASA aircraft' not the UK part-21 aircraft, the CAA needs to clarify. The term 'EASA' is removed from the UK ANO.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2021, 18:42
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 338
I emailed the LAA for clarification and to ask about the possibility of revalidating my NPPL (SSEA). The Head of Licensing has commented:

"For the foreseeable future, his LAPL should give him the same privilege of flying G registered aircraft in UK airspace on a Medical Declaration, albeit having to fulfil the slightly higher medical requirements for a PART-21 licence declaration (the sub 5700kg requirements). The LAPL also allows him to fly PART-21 aircraft (previously known as EASA aircraft) which the NPPL currently does not allow."

If this is confirmed, it means that any LAPL holder flying on a sub 2000kg PMD will have to cancel it and make a new sub 5700kg PMD (if able) to fly any aircraft even if (like me) they only wish to continue to fly non-part 21 aircraft up to 2000kg in UK airspace. This is nonsense but before I write a sharp letter to Grant Shapps, does anyone have any comments?

Of course, some LAPL holders will have (like me) the option to revalidate their NPPL and continue to fly on a sub 2000kg PMD.

However, if (like me) they have not had their NPPL rating validity page signed by an examiner every two years, they can only renew their NPPL by a General Skills Test with an examiner and if it has expired by more than 5 years (like me), that Test includes an oral theoretical knowledge examination.

And this appears to apply even if (like me!) they have satisfied all the normal NPPL (SSEA) rating flight time and training flight with an instructor validity conditions in SEPs on a LAPL(A).


"

Last edited by Forfoxake; 18th Feb 2021 at 18:56.
Forfoxake is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2021, 19:21
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 385
having to fulfil the slightly higher medical requirements for a PART-21 licence declaration (the sub 5700kg requirements)
No you don't, the word "sub" is not used.

it means that any LAPL holder flying on a sub 2000kg PMD will have to cancel it
No they don't. The wording isn't sub 2000 kg or sub 5700 kg, the wording is: Holders of UK national licenses only, to only fly aircraft no greater than 2000 kg MTOM. The wording is the same for the "no greater than" 5700 kg aircraft.

The LAPL and NPPL privileges provide for flying no greater than 2000 kg MTOM aircraft. The self declaration for the no greater than 2000 kg aircraft is therefore all that is required.



Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2021, 20:24
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Scotland
Posts: 338
Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
No you don't, the word "sub" is not used.



No they don't. The wording isn't sub 2000 kg or sub 5700 kg, the wording is: Holders of UK national licenses only, to only fly aircraft no greater than 2000 kg MTOM. The wording is the same for the "no greater than" 5700 kg aircraft.

The LAPL and NPPL privileges provide for flying no greater than 2000 kg MTOM aircraft. The self declaration for the no greater than 2000 kg aircraft is therefore all that is required.
OK, thanks. Apologies for repeating his/her use of the word SUB. I should have stuck to the usual up to or no greater than. And as you point out, the LAPL is only valid in aircraft up to 2000kg so the LAA's advice does not sound correct!

However, I still do not understand why the CAA website makes a distinction when

Self-declaring your medical fitness using the Pilot Medical Declaration

between

Holders of UK national licences ONLY, to only fly aircraft no greater than 2000 kg MTOM
and
Holders of UK national and Part-FCL Licences, to fly any aircraft less than 5700kg MTOM

(My emphasis on first ONLY)

So I pose this question again: Does a UK issued Part-FCL LAPL now count as a UK national licence?

Thank you for all your input F1F.

Last edited by Forfoxake; 18th Feb 2021 at 22:25. Reason: The PMD declaration has changed
Forfoxake is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.