Would you allow a passenger to 'have a go' on the controls?
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 74
Posts: 1,684
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
It does not have cover for instructional use.
A lot of policies used to automatically cover instructors to fly the aircraft, which I sometimes do to help out for maintenance ferries etc. Now, I have to get the owner to put me on as a named pilot. Usually, this is at no extra charge, but the last one cost the owner £80. He still paid as it was worth it to him, but it's all creeping up...
TOO
The two aircraft I have shares in are only covered for the syndicate members, and an instructor who is instructing them. Not an instructor without one of them. There's no mention of someone else touching controls.
I have difficulty visualising a situation where a sane and sober pax could cause an accident other than at take-off or landing.
I have difficulty visualising how, post accident, it could be determined that the pax caused it.
I can visualize a situation where a pax in a small aircraft could cause an accident, without any willingness by the pilot to let them touch anything.
I have difficulty visualising a situation where a sane and sober pax could cause an accident other than at take-off or landing.
I have difficulty visualising how, post accident, it could be determined that the pax caused it.
I can visualize a situation where a pax in a small aircraft could cause an accident, without any willingness by the pilot to let them touch anything.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: 7nm N of LARCK
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like many posters on here I’m happy to let passengers have a go if they wish, with the usual caveats of ‘not near the ground’ etc. Like BackPacker I do an annual charity flying day (Starlight at Popham) as well as other youth related sessions. I’ve even had the call “You might not remember me, but you’ve cost me a lot of money! Some time ago you took me for a ride in your aeroplane, I’m calling to tell you I’ve just got my PPL”.
With regard to the OP, if the PIC wasn’t an instructor, then it wasn’t an instructional flight. The PIC holds similar authority to the ship’s captain, described as ‘Master under God’. Ok, some captains I knew might dispute the authority gradient…. The point is that as PIC you can do what you like, and any results are your problem (should there be a problem). If as others have said, the passenger flying somehow caused the problem, then there may be a case against the PIC for allowing it to get that far. If it was a case of the loss adjuster dredging up any possible unrelated cause to disallow the claim, there are a lot of people who would really like to know the Insurance company and the loss adjuster, so that they can be avoided. I suspect most of us will now go and have a look at our aircraft insurance, to check that no such clause is hidden away in our policies. Thanks for the heads-up / warning.
With regard to the OP, if the PIC wasn’t an instructor, then it wasn’t an instructional flight. The PIC holds similar authority to the ship’s captain, described as ‘Master under God’. Ok, some captains I knew might dispute the authority gradient…. The point is that as PIC you can do what you like, and any results are your problem (should there be a problem). If as others have said, the passenger flying somehow caused the problem, then there may be a case against the PIC for allowing it to get that far. If it was a case of the loss adjuster dredging up any possible unrelated cause to disallow the claim, there are a lot of people who would really like to know the Insurance company and the loss adjuster, so that they can be avoided. I suspect most of us will now go and have a look at our aircraft insurance, to check that no such clause is hidden away in our policies. Thanks for the heads-up / warning.
As for your wish to see them operating their own aircraft, why? You are not assessing them and you are required to sign their renewal if you complete the 1 hour instructed flight. You don’t have the option of not doing so, so it doesn’t matter what they are flying as long as it’s in the appropriate category.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Do I come here often?
Posts: 898
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another one to check; every year I run a fly in at an unlicensed airfield. Four years ago a pilot in a PA28 came and asked if we thought he would be able to take-off with the load he had. He didn't understand the performance section of the POH, had little idea of what he was doing on grass, nearly made a massive hash of it all, his wife and daughter went home (165 miles) in a taxi.
The following day I called the syndicate instructor, the instructor was horrified at the standards and flying of the PPL holding syndicate member then informed me that their insurance precluded unlicensed strips.
Talking with the underwriters of my company fleet insurance they told me that even if the guy had experienced an EFATO from an unlicensed strip they would probably have walked away, despite the fact he was airborne and not on the strip, but was flying from it.
I checked the insurance for my weekend toy and it had the same caveat, a small fee and tiny premium increase and cover was restored, and she lives year round on an unlicensed, private strip.
SND
The following day I called the syndicate instructor, the instructor was horrified at the standards and flying of the PPL holding syndicate member then informed me that their insurance precluded unlicensed strips.
Talking with the underwriters of my company fleet insurance they told me that even if the guy had experienced an EFATO from an unlicensed strip they would probably have walked away, despite the fact he was airborne and not on the strip, but was flying from it.
I checked the insurance for my weekend toy and it had the same caveat, a small fee and tiny premium increase and cover was restored, and she lives year round on an unlicensed, private strip.
SND
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When preparing students for their skill test towards the end of their ppl course, I always included a little demonstration of what might happen if they let their non flying friends have a go. After slow flight and stalling revision, whilst still well above 3000 agl, I’d take control and start a turn. I’d add a bit too much bank, just over 30 degrees, but fail to apply enough back pressure. Inevitably most students were slow to recognise the ensuing spiral dive. Astoundingly some misdiagnosed it as a spin (which is not a normal part of the current syllabus).
Either way food for thought and plenty of discussion items for the post flight debrief and coffee.
Either way food for thought and plenty of discussion items for the post flight debrief and coffee.
Jim59 Can you let us know more about the actual event you mention in your first post? I think many of us would like to know more, as the decision of the insurance company seems harsh/unreasonable unless there is more to the story?
rarely at home
We do have the option of not signing the log book, which would invalidate any revalidation paperwork and require at least one more instructor hour before the licence could be signed.
We do have the option of not signing the log book, which would invalidate any revalidation paperwork and require at least one more instructor hour before the licence could be signed.
Thread Starter
Can you let us know more about the actual event you mention in your first post? I think many of us would like to know more, as the decision of the insurance company seems harsh/unreasonable unless there is more to the story?
Knowing the impact this is having on friends I wanted to bring to a wider audience the fact that they may need to consider the financial risks they are taking if flying outside the cover laid down in their insurance - not to expose/identify the parties. It may be appropriate to identify the insurers when the dust has settled.
Pax as Cruise Autopilot
In Canada the regulations were amended to prohibit any non pilot touching the controls unless the PIC is an instructor. Before that I would put the right seat in charge of holding wings level and I would watch for traffic, talk to ATC, monitor the gauges and track, work out ETA (before GPS) and of course monitor "George" like a hawk after instructing. Took over approaching destination.
Pretty much the same for glider intros. After release, let them try out the controls and take back entering the circuit.
Do read the insurance policy.
Pretty much the same for glider intros. After release, let them try out the controls and take back entering the circuit.
Do read the insurance policy.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: at the edge of the alps
Posts: 447
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In Canada the regulations were amended to prohibit any non pilot touching the controls unless the PIC is an instructor. Before that I would put the right seat in charge of holding wings level and I would watch for traffic, talk to ATC, monitor the gauges and track, work out ETA (before GPS) and of course monitor "George" like a hawk after instructing. Took over approaching destination.
Pretty much the same for glider intros. After release, let them try out the controls and take back entering the circuit.
Do read the insurance policy.
Pretty much the same for glider intros. After release, let them try out the controls and take back entering the circuit.
Do read the insurance policy.
Very interesting. I could understand a problem with the claim if the passenger was on the controls at the time of the accident but if it was at a time that had no influence on the mishap itself, then it does seem a bit off. What next, “did you have help pushing it out of the hangar?”...
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bit of thread drift here, surely. I seem to recall the OP was asking about light singles. No one here has so far as I’ve noticed carried the question across to public transport jets. To which the answer should be an unequivocal “Never”.
Light aircraft, according to appropriate circumstances, an equally resounding “Yes”. Common sense should rule.
If not the logical extension is that only aircraft operated by flying schools would be allowed to have dual controls, and then when flown solo or with an instructor onboard. Otherwise a law should be passed decreeing non licensed (or named insured pilots) MUST sit where they have no access to the controls.
Ye Gods and little fishes. Where has personal responsibility gone. What is the meaning of pilot in “command”?
Have we not learnt yet that you cannot legislate against every possibility?
Light aircraft, according to appropriate circumstances, an equally resounding “Yes”. Common sense should rule.
If not the logical extension is that only aircraft operated by flying schools would be allowed to have dual controls, and then when flown solo or with an instructor onboard. Otherwise a law should be passed decreeing non licensed (or named insured pilots) MUST sit where they have no access to the controls.
Ye Gods and little fishes. Where has personal responsibility gone. What is the meaning of pilot in “command”?
Have we not learnt yet that you cannot legislate against every possibility?
We were making a documentary regarding a young man who sadly had a terminal illness. He had a passion for flying but had never been in a light aircraft.
We arranged for a flight in a training glider, but our insurance company would not insure the flight as they understood that the flight controls were mechanically linked and the seating arrangement would not allow the pilot to regain control should the lad have made “inappropriate inputs”.(suicide-murder)
Personal opinion counts for very little in this context. What matters is the law and how the insurance company or, in the worst case, a court interprets it. As usual, UK law is written in such a way as to allow for the maximum flexibility in interpretation and, specifically, ANO Article 136 prohibits anyone from "acting as a pilot" without being in possession of an appropriate licence, unless undergoing flying training. An insurer might argue that if a person influences the flight path of an aircraft by manipulating the flying controls, they might be said to "acting as a pilot". If that person does not hold an appropriate licence and is not under instruction it might be further argued that the flight was being conducted other than in accordance with the ANO and, therefore, that the insurance was invalidated.
Of course, this will all remain as pointless conjecture unless and until the issue is tested in a court of law.
Of course, this will all remain as pointless conjecture unless and until the issue is tested in a court of law.
". If that person does not hold an appropriate licence and is not under instruction it might be further argued that the flight was being conducted other than in accordance with the ANO and, therefore, that the insurance was invalidated."
But is the insurance invalidated for later in the flight, when the accident occurs on approach/landing, with the P1 in charge?
If so, if a pilot whose insurance covers aerobatics "minimum 1000' AGL" is observed rolling below 1000', and he goes off the runway due to a crosswind gust on landing, is he out of cover?
I got caught in cloud, did a 180°, got back VFR, on a basic PPL. Broadcast my situation and intention. Was my insurance invalidated for the rest of the flight?
I can understand if the pilot handling the landing was not insured.
But is the insurance invalidated for later in the flight, when the accident occurs on approach/landing, with the P1 in charge?
If so, if a pilot whose insurance covers aerobatics "minimum 1000' AGL" is observed rolling below 1000', and he goes off the runway due to a crosswind gust on landing, is he out of cover?
I got caught in cloud, did a 180°, got back VFR, on a basic PPL. Broadcast my situation and intention. Was my insurance invalidated for the rest of the flight?
I can understand if the pilot handling the landing was not insured.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Norfolk, England
Age: 87
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember that flying from Denham (many years ago) Tiger Moth and Magister sticks were removed before passengers were carried. In more recent times, only Instructors were allowed to 'hand over control'
But is the insurance invalidated for later in the flight, when the accident occurs on approach/landing, with the P1 in charge?
I remember that flying from Denham (many years ago) Tiger Moth and Magister sticks were removed before passengers were carried.