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Would you allow a passenger to 'have a go' on the controls?

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Would you allow a passenger to 'have a go' on the controls?

Old 23rd Feb 2020, 18:46
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
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It does not have cover for instructional use.
I'm amazed. All the policies I've seen cover an instructor whilst giving a named person on the policy instruction (for their revalidation instructional flight, for instance). I'm going to have to look more carefully at Club members' insurance before I go flying with them in their own aircraft. The alternative would be to insist they do this flight in the Club aircraft, which has no restrictions, apart from declaring individuals flying who are over 74 (several). I think this would be a bad move as I want to see how they are operating their own aircraft.
A lot of policies used to automatically cover instructors to fly the aircraft, which I sometimes do to help out for maintenance ferries etc. Now, I have to get the owner to put me on as a named pilot. Usually, this is at no extra charge, but the last one cost the owner £80. He still paid as it was worth it to him, but it's all creeping up...

TOO
TheOddOne is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2020, 20:17
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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The two aircraft I have shares in are only covered for the syndicate members, and an instructor who is instructing them. Not an instructor without one of them. There's no mention of someone else touching controls.
I have difficulty visualising a situation where a sane and sober pax could cause an accident other than at take-off or landing.
I have difficulty visualising how, post accident, it could be determined that the pax caused it.
I can visualize a situation where a pax in a small aircraft could cause an accident, without any willingness by the pilot to let them touch anything.
Maoraigh1 is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2020, 20:20
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Like many posters on here I’m happy to let passengers have a go if they wish, with the usual caveats of ‘not near the ground’ etc. Like BackPacker I do an annual charity flying day (Starlight at Popham) as well as other youth related sessions. I’ve even had the call “You might not remember me, but you’ve cost me a lot of money! Some time ago you took me for a ride in your aeroplane, I’m calling to tell you I’ve just got my PPL”.

With regard to the OP, if the PIC wasn’t an instructor, then it wasn’t an instructional flight. The PIC holds similar authority to the ship’s captain, described as ‘Master under God’. Ok, some captains I knew might dispute the authority gradient…. The point is that as PIC you can do what you like, and any results are your problem (should there be a problem). If as others have said, the passenger flying somehow caused the problem, then there may be a case against the PIC for allowing it to get that far. If it was a case of the loss adjuster dredging up any possible unrelated cause to disallow the claim, there are a lot of people who would really like to know the Insurance company and the loss adjuster, so that they can be avoided. I suspect most of us will now go and have a look at our aircraft insurance, to check that no such clause is hidden away in our policies. Thanks for the heads-up / warning.
Whiskey Kilo Wanderer is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2020, 22:12
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TheOddOne View Post
I'm going to have to look more carefully at Club members' insurance before I go flying. ......

I think this would be a bad move as I want to see how they are operating their own aircraft.

TOO
You are right, always, always check the insurance if you are instructing in a privately owned aircraft.

As for your wish to see them operating their own aircraft, why? You are not assessing them and you are required to sign their renewal if you complete the 1 hour instructed flight. You don’t have the option of not doing so, so it doesn’t matter what they are flying as long as it’s in the appropriate category.
rarelyathome is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2020, 10:01
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Another one to check; every year I run a fly in at an unlicensed airfield. Four years ago a pilot in a PA28 came and asked if we thought he would be able to take-off with the load he had. He didn't understand the performance section of the POH, had little idea of what he was doing on grass, nearly made a massive hash of it all, his wife and daughter went home (165 miles) in a taxi.

The following day I called the syndicate instructor, the instructor was horrified at the standards and flying of the PPL holding syndicate member then informed me that their insurance precluded unlicensed strips.

Talking with the underwriters of my company fleet insurance they told me that even if the guy had experienced an EFATO from an unlicensed strip they would probably have walked away, despite the fact he was airborne and not on the strip, but was flying from it.

I checked the insurance for my weekend toy and it had the same caveat, a small fee and tiny premium increase and cover was restored, and she lives year round on an unlicensed, private strip.

SND
Sir Niall Dementia is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2020, 04:55
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
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When preparing students for their skill test towards the end of their ppl course, I always included a little demonstration of what might happen if they let their non flying friends have a go. After slow flight and stalling revision, whilst still well above 3000 agl, I’d take control and start a turn. I’d add a bit too much bank, just over 30 degrees, but fail to apply enough back pressure. Inevitably most students were slow to recognise the ensuing spiral dive. Astoundingly some misdiagnosed it as a spin (which is not a normal part of the current syllabus).
Either way food for thought and plenty of discussion items for the post flight debrief and coffee.
Nubboy is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2020, 04:59
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Jim59 Can you let us know more about the actual event you mention in your first post? I think many of us would like to know more, as the decision of the insurance company seems harsh/unreasonable unless there is more to the story?

Sam Rutherford is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2020, 09:05
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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rarely at home

We do have the option of not signing the log book, which would invalidate any revalidation paperwork and require at least one more instructor hour before the licence could be signed.
MrAverage is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2020, 14:05
  #29 (permalink)  
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Can you let us know more about the actual event you mention in your first post? I think many of us would like to know more, as the decision of the insurance company seems harsh/unreasonable unless there is more to the story?
As you can imagine it's an ongoing situation likely to involve lawyers and subrogation claims against individuals so I feel discretion is appropriate at present.

Knowing the impact this is having on friends I wanted to bring to a wider audience the fact that they may need to consider the financial risks they are taking if flying outside the cover laid down in their insurance - not to expose/identify the parties. It may be appropriate to identify the insurers when the dust has settled.
Jim59 is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2020, 17:06
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Pax as Cruise Autopilot

In Canada the regulations were amended to prohibit any non pilot touching the controls unless the PIC is an instructor. Before that I would put the right seat in charge of holding wings level and I would watch for traffic, talk to ATC, monitor the gauges and track, work out ETA (before GPS) and of course monitor "George" like a hawk after instructing. Took over approaching destination.
​​​​​
Pretty much the same for glider intros. After release, let them try out the controls and take back entering the circuit.

​​​​​​Do read the insurance policy.
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2020, 20:32
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying View Post
In Canada the regulations were amended to prohibit any non pilot touching the controls unless the PIC is an instructor. Before that I would put the right seat in charge of holding wings level and I would watch for traffic, talk to ATC, monitor the gauges and track, work out ETA (before GPS) and of course monitor "George" like a hawk after instructing. Took over approaching destination.
​​​​​
Pretty much the same for glider intros. After release, let them try out the controls and take back entering the circuit.

​​​​​​Do read the insurance policy.
The Canadian Regulation is stupid. I was allowed to handle controls of a Cessna 210 during cruise from about 5 years of age and had my own booster seat so I could actually look over the glare shield. (When not on controls I also operated gear and flaps on my dad's command at that age.) I have done so myself once I had a license of my own and can't see any harm in that during private flights as long as it's limited to safe phases of flight and the PIC monitors it and knows what he's doing.
Alpine Flyer is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2020, 20:42
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Very interesting. I could understand a problem with the claim if the passenger was on the controls at the time of the accident but if it was at a time that had no influence on the mishap itself, then it does seem a bit off. What next, “did you have help pushing it out of the hangar?”...
FullWings is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2020, 23:55
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Sometimes it doesn't quite work out as you may have planned. Horses for courses of course.

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/...310_F-OGQS.pdf
megan is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2020, 10:11
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Bit of thread drift here, surely. I seem to recall the OP was asking about light singles. No one here has so far as I’ve noticed carried the question across to public transport jets. To which the answer should be an unequivocal “Never”.
Light aircraft, according to appropriate circumstances, an equally resounding “Yes”. Common sense should rule.
If not the logical extension is that only aircraft operated by flying schools would be allowed to have dual controls, and then when flown solo or with an instructor onboard. Otherwise a law should be passed decreeing non licensed (or named insured pilots) MUST sit where they have no access to the controls.
Ye Gods and little fishes. Where has personal responsibility gone. What is the meaning of pilot in “command”?
Have we not learnt yet that you cannot legislate against every possibility?
Nubboy is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2020, 21:17
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford View Post
To my mind, if the accident occurs during this period, then insurance won't pay out. If, though, the accident occurs afterwards (with insured in control), then surely insurance should cover.

Or it's not that simple?
​​​​​

We were making a documentary regarding a young man who sadly had a terminal illness. He had a passion for flying but had never been in a light aircraft.

We arranged for a flight in a training glider, but our insurance company would not insure the flight as they understood that the flight controls were mechanically linked and the seating arrangement would not allow the pilot to regain control should the lad have made “inappropriate inputs”.(suicide-murder)



mickjoebill is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2020, 09:31
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Personal opinion counts for very little in this context. What matters is the law and how the insurance company or, in the worst case, a court interprets it. As usual, UK law is written in such a way as to allow for the maximum flexibility in interpretation and, specifically, ANO Article 136 prohibits anyone from "acting as a pilot" without being in possession of an appropriate licence, unless undergoing flying training. An insurer might argue that if a person influences the flight path of an aircraft by manipulating the flying controls, they might be said to "acting as a pilot". If that person does not hold an appropriate licence and is not under instruction it might be further argued that the flight was being conducted other than in accordance with the ANO and, therefore, that the insurance was invalidated.

Of course, this will all remain as pointless conjecture unless and until the issue is tested in a court of law.
BillieBob is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2020, 18:29
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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". If that person does not hold an appropriate licence and is not under instruction it might be further argued that the flight was being conducted other than in accordance with the ANO and, therefore, that the insurance was invalidated."
But is the insurance invalidated for later in the flight, when the accident occurs on approach/landing, with the P1 in charge?
If so, if a pilot whose insurance covers aerobatics "minimum 1000' AGL" is observed rolling below 1000', and he goes off the runway due to a crosswind gust on landing, is he out of cover?
I got caught in cloud, did a 180°, got back VFR, on a basic PPL. Broadcast my situation and intention. Was my insurance invalidated for the rest of the flight?
I can understand if the pilot handling the landing was not insured.
Maoraigh1 is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2020, 00:28
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
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I remember that flying from Denham (many years ago) Tiger Moth and Magister sticks were removed before passengers were carried. In more recent times, only Instructors were allowed to 'hand over control'
briani is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2020, 14:05
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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But is the insurance invalidated for later in the flight, when the accident occurs on approach/landing, with the P1 in charge?
Judging by the OP's example, the answer is Yes.
BillieBob is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2020, 19:54
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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I remember that flying from Denham (many years ago) Tiger Moth and Magister sticks were removed before passengers were carried.
That is certainly what happened on my very first flight, as a passenger of course, in the front seat of a Piper Cub, from EBAW; must have been in the early 1960's.
Jan Olieslagers is offline  

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