Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

Maps are obsolete

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Maps are obsolete

Old 12th Nov 2017, 18:43
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,982
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Maps are obsolete
No but finding pilots who really understand the fundamentals of navigation is becoming increasingly rare as modern devices deskill them.

At a slight tangent on the topic but this is an interesting watch with respect to modern technology

The Glass Cage

Last edited by fireflybob; 12th Nov 2017 at 19:16.
fireflybob is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2017, 18:49
  #22 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Here
Posts: 1,874
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
1. Charts don't break down, but they are also out of date the moment they are printed.
2. Who needs to know how to read a chart if you have sufficient redundancy to never have to rely on one? We're no longer taught how to use a sextant, and they dropped Morse as a requirement as I was half way through my commercials. I suggest that drawing lines on maps could, actually should, be dropped - in favour of instruction in how to use the various (and amazing) electronic solutions that now exist.

The reality is that there are thousands of pilots presently being trained, and studying, a system of navigation that they will never, ever actually use the moment they get their certificate/licence.
Sam Rutherford is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2017, 19:25
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 84
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I was once amused to see a ten year old child reading a book (paper version). Placed her fingers on the page and attempted to zoom in on something by spreading her fingers.
Then I did the same thing myself at the age of 77.
We are doomed!!
Crash one is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2017, 19:42
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford
1. Charts don't break down, but they are also out of date the moment they are printed.
2. Who needs to know how to read a chart if you have sufficient redundancy to never have to rely on one? We're no longer taught how to use a sextant, and they dropped Morse as a requirement as I was half way through my commercials. I suggest that drawing lines on maps could, actually should, be dropped - in favour of instruction in how to use the various (and amazing) electronic solutions that now exist.

The reality is that there are thousands of pilots presently being trained, and studying, a system of navigation that they will never, ever actually use the moment they get their certificate/licence.
Actually Sam, given your background and experience, you are really surprising me with your ridiculously simplistic take on this! Either you are winding us up, or I will have to downgrade my opinion of you.
Basic compass stopwatch and ruler navigation is really important to learn, even if you will never use it in its most basic form. Why? Because you must absolutely understand those fundamentals. Whatever form of nav you use.
Most of us don't fly with sufficient redundancy in our electronic nav systems to never need to fall back on simply knowing where we are and looking on a chart to see where to go next.
The pro GPS lobby seem to assume that it's black and white, either use full GPS with magenta line. Or use only compass and stop watch.
The reality isn't like that. I teach folk to plan on paper, and be confident they could find their way on paper if the electronic stuff went tits up, but to have a GPS running to confirm where they are (NB no magenta line)
Heston is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2017, 19:44
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Crash one
I was once amused to see a ten year old child reading a book (paper version). Placed her fingers on the page and attempted to zoom in on something by spreading her fingers.
Then I did the same thing myself at the age of 77.
We are doomed!!
Haha! Maybe we are at that
Heston is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2017, 20:04
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford
1. Charts don't break down, but they are also out of date the moment they are printed.
2. Who needs to know how to read a chart if you have sufficient redundancy to never have to rely on one? We're no longer taught how to use a sextant, and they dropped Morse as a requirement as I was half way through my commercials. I suggest that drawing lines on maps could, actually should, be dropped - in favour of instruction in how to use the various (and amazing) electronic solutions that now exist.

The reality is that there are thousands of pilots presently being trained, and studying, a system of navigation that they will never, ever actually use the moment they get their certificate/licence.
Oh yeah really, get a grip, next time you fly something that isn't equipped with all the gadgets then how are you going to get from A-B.

Or just wait for Trump to have a bad day and switch all the brain cells to your fantastic gadgets off when your in the middle of nowhere

I just checked and isn't April 1st just yet.
Above The Clouds is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2017, 20:26
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 84
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by fireflybob
No but finding pilots who really understand the fundamentals of navigation is becoming increasingly rare as modern devices deskill them.

At a slight tangent on the topic but this is an interesting watch with respect to modern technology

The Glass Cage
That was a very interesting 55 mins. And hits the nail firmly on the head.
I have said somewhere that using the magenta line system a pilot could fly from one end of the country to the other with a blank white screen except for airspace and a magenta line. With no clue where they are at any given time. Declutter to the nth degree!
Crash one is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2017, 22:33
  #28 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,561
Received 402 Likes on 210 Posts
Originally Posted by Above The Clouds
Oh yeah really, get a grip, next time you fly something that isn't equipped with all the gadgets then how are you going to get from A-B.

Or just wait for Trump to have a bad day and switch all the brain cells to your fantastic gadgets off when your in the middle of nowhere

I just checked and isn't April 1st just yet.
If Trump turns off his brain cells, I''d carry on using Putin's because my portable receiver can see both. Failing that, I'd carry on using the other radio navaids I always have appropriately dialled up as backup whilst fishing out the relevant 1/2 mill chart from behind my seat.
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2017, 04:45
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 45
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Journey whether in the air or on the ground, I'll always get a mental map beforehand. Saves a lot of stress, and gives you good SA.
Ex Cargo Clown is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2017, 04:55
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska, PNG, etc.
Age: 60
Posts: 1,550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford
1. Charts don't break down, but they are also out of date the moment they are printed.
And by that rationale, a digital chart is out of date the moment the download is complete. So everyone is flying with out of date charts.
A Squared is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2017, 06:59
  #31 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Here
Posts: 1,874
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Actually, this is exactly where I'm going...

We'll shortly be jumping in cars where not only are we not navigating, we're not even driving. Planes will follow.

Before that we'll be flying with AR (we already have little boxes and SV).

As I already mentioned, you of course need redundancy (my plane has no less than four GPS, three of which have some sort of independent battery backup). I think my analysis that I have zero risk of total NAV failure is correct (assuming that the GPS network being switched off in my area is zero).

Of course, anything is possible - but on reasonable probability I'm more likely to win the lottery than find myself without an electronic NAV solution.

And in answer to someone else's post - clearly if the plane doesn't have the hardware then you will have to bring your own solution with sufficient redundancy.

If you're using 3G or higher connectivity, your electronic chart is constantly updating even in flight, even with notams coming and going. A paper one is immediately out of date, and is a year out of date before the next one appears.

For preflight, we have t'internet - and for the final stages the absolutely brilliant 'flight simulator' on google earth for local spatial awareness. I've used this a couple of times for first visit to (particularly mountain) strips - it's weird seeing the same river/factory etc. for the second time when I've never actually been there before.

More simply, 99% of pilots (including big commercial aircraft who've had paperless cockpits for years) no longer use charts (and don't even have access to them) - so should we not be training on the correct use of these rather than 'last year's solution'?

Discuss! :-)
Sam Rutherford is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2017, 07:17
  #32 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Here
Posts: 1,874
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
And in response to here (and on FB curiously) with regard to this subject and the VintageAirRally.

When you're already flying a labour-intensive aeroplane, with an open-cockpit, average radio quality and high ambient noise - using an electronic NAV solution is clearly the way to go for a bunch of reasons. There's a video on youtube showing a chart wrapped around the tail! :-)

As far as another thread on here is concerned, however, we've never claimed to be doing it without modern aids. Erm, because we are doing it with modern aids!
Sam Rutherford is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2017, 07:20
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by fireflybob
No but finding pilots who really understand the fundamentals of navigation is becoming increasingly rare as modern devices deskill them.

At a slight tangent on the topic but this is an interesting watch with respect to modern technology

The Glass Cage
When I did my navex for gliding the instructor I did it with placed huge emphasis on the small picture and none on the big. Was the high ground where it should be? Was the big river where it should be? IMHO the big picture is just as important as the small, a view developed over years of hill walking & some marine navigation. For me the big picture is what lets me re-orient myself if necessary.
cats_five is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2017, 07:28
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Tring, UK
Posts: 1,823
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
I like charts and carry them when flying gliders and light aircraft. They are there as backup, though and I navigate using electronic ones and the view out of the window.

Benefits like airspace warnings, traffic display, frequency selection, NOTAM plots, live weather and terrain profiles make properly designed moving maps such an advance on the traditional flattened dead tree device.

I’m of the opinion that yes, instruction should be given in the use of “classic” charts but after competency has been achieved using modern devices. The sky is too busy these days to learn by your mistakes, especially with lookout and airspace...
FullWings is online now  
Old 13th Nov 2017, 08:13
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Horsted Keynes, West Sussex.
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Oh Sam,,,,you're such a naughty boy..This is the one subject that's guaranteed to get the fur flying.
I must say , I'm pleasantly surprised to see such a robust defence of trad.nav methods and whilst I tend to lean towards that myself , I do feel that both sides have their place in aviation.
I've said before that there's nothing that says that the chart supporters are the good guys and "the tablets" are not. You can be a menace in the sky using either method.


As one who has a great interest in classic/vintage types , I do , by extension have an equal interest in traditional navigation methods . I fly purely for fun and get massive enjoyment from it.
If , on the other hand my leanings were towards doing flying like wot the "steely-eyed killers" do , then it would probably make a lot more sense to use more contemporary means of navigation.
There is no right and no wrong method here , as long as people don't drop their standards.
It's been quite an interesting thread so far. I'm sure had it been posted elsewhere , we would be up to about 12 pages now with all the usual backbiting and acidic PM's.


Perhaps it's a bit more 'old school' on here.........[fine by me]
Chris Martyr is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2017, 08:21
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
If Trump turns off his brain cells, I''d carry on using Putin's because my portable receiver can see both. Failing that, I'd carry on using the other radio navaids I always have appropriately dialled up as backup whilst fishing out the relevant 1/2 mill chart from behind my seat.
Well Putin's system is turned off or degraded more than Trump's without prior warning, I know as I am based and work in Putin's airspace.

Definitely agree with you regarding the use of other ground base navaids as a backup, even the trusted NDB's are still widely used for approaches East of the European border.

Anyway each to their own method, personally having been trained old school in the methods of navigation I like to have charts available for VFR navigation they always got me to the target in the past
Above The Clouds is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2017, 08:26
  #37 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Here
Posts: 1,874
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Hi Chris,

Actually, if I'm being entirely candid, probably looking to see if how I fly (not used a chart in years) is in line with others (old and new school).

I'm also used to flying (even post Army) in a high workload environment (difficult locations, weather and simultaneously managing a large group of aircraft for example).

The idea of doing all of that plus being possibly being uncertain about my position makes me cringe.
Sam Rutherford is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2017, 08:28
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Oxide ghost
Age: 59
Posts: 49
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford
1. Charts don't break down, but they are also out of date the moment they are printed.
In the recent tragic Irish SAR helicopter crash, was it not the case that the electronic map they were following didn't have the island they hit marked upon it (despite the omission having been previously reported) whereas the official paper chart did?

Being electronic is no guarantee of accuracy or indeed currency.

I also agree about Google v. OS. Google can be handy at times but then I pick up even an old Landranger and once more marvel at its sheer detail. In some ways things have moved backwards.
Ambient Sheep is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2017, 08:30
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford
Hi Chris,

Actually, if I'm being entirely candid, probably looking to see if how I fly (not used a chart in years) is in line with others (old and new school).

I'm also used to flying (even post Army) in a high workload environment (difficult locations, weather and simultaneously managing a large group of aircraft for example).

The idea of doing all of that plus being possibly being uncertain about my position makes me cringe.
Sam, I think it comes with age
Above The Clouds is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2017, 14:05
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Horsted Keynes, West Sussex.
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford
I'm also used to flying (even post Army) in a high workload environment (difficult locations, weather and simultaneously managing a large group of aircraft for example).

Given your current professional involvement and also , your background Sam, I fully agree that contemporary nav. methods are of utmost importance and should you be forced into requiring a chart , then you would be having a very bad day indeed. Hence my earlier comment regarding the "steely eyed killer" requirements .
As a 'fun-runner' myself though , who only flies for purely recreational purposes , I believe it would remove a lot of the fun and the skill to only use tablet devices. Navigation for me is a hobby in itself . Although it must be said that loafing around over the beautiful Sussex countryside at 73kts hardly leaves one open to surface to air missile attacks.


Although , if I had flown military machinery in war zones or was in bandit territory in Africa , which is something that I'm sure Sam can identify with, then 'state of the art' nav. equipment would be a no-brainer.


So for me , there is great relevance in both methods. And in answer to Sam's original question about charts being obsolete ?


Sorry mate,,,,,,,,,,,,,a resounding NO
Chris Martyr is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.