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Maps are obsolete

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Maps are obsolete

Old 11th Nov 2017, 17:52
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Maps are obsolete

Paper maps to clarify!

Discuss...

Last edited by Sam Rutherford; 11th Nov 2017 at 18:27.
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Old 11th Nov 2017, 18:06
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No way! I've never ended up a lane with grass down the middle using an OS map unlike my Garmin. If I'm going somewhere new in the car I'll look at an atlas, boot up the GPS and check its suggested route and always take my brain.
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Old 11th Nov 2017, 18:15
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No they are not.

CG
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Old 11th Nov 2017, 18:17
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I like maps.

In a big jet, EFIS/iPad, etc. are great but suffer from zooming and scaling problems. Anyway, my airline gets upset if you draw a chinagraph line on the ND.

I carry an atlas to identify mountains, rivers and cities.

In light aircraft, I navigate primarily by reference to a carefully pre-folded and suitably-marked topo chart or sectional. I admit that my iPad is sitting on the back seat for occasional reference, particularly when close to CAS. Just confirming your track and groundspeed can be a great comfort.

So, to answer your question: for me, maps are definitely not obsolete but more modern aids should be used as and when required.
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Old 11th Nov 2017, 18:19
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Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford View Post
Discuss...
Well first off I'd say that you must mean 'paper maps are obsolete'. I love the map that I get on my tablet with a little airplane symbol to show where I am.
The map as a concept, however it is displayed, is a supreme achievement of the human intellect. As a way of navigating they seem to have been invented in the late middle ages - prior to that if, say, you wished to go from London to York, you took a list of towns and villages to go through and relied on local knowledge. Earlier maps exist but weren't particularly expected to help you find your way. It was the concept of scale and representation accurately of bearings that made them useful tools.
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Old 11th Nov 2017, 18:26
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Interesting. My thinking is the opposite, that "paper maps should be used as and when required."

And that would only be once you had total electrical failure, and your GPS, and your ipad, and your phone batteries also went flat. The level of electronic redundancy in the average cockpit today is close to (if not at) infallible.

Of course, you'd then discover you don't actually have the right map anyway...

Even the idea of 'useful for pre-flight planning' or 'situational awareness' is moot given the topographic information now electronically available.

I'm surprised to hear the contrary. I haven't flown with someone using a map as primary resource in at least 10 years, actually probably more.

Last edited by Sam Rutherford; 11th Nov 2017 at 18:27. Reason: adding in paper, thanks for the observation!
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Old 11th Nov 2017, 18:40
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Charts, not maps.
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Old 11th Nov 2017, 19:13
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'm surprised to hear the contrary. I haven't flown with someone using a map as primary resource in at least 10 years, actually probably more.
That's coz you haven't flown with me!

I totally agree that modern aids should be made full use of. I have no intrinsic problem with anybody who wants to use the 'electronic gizmo' as a prime source. I just prefer the look and feel of a paper map. Also, I can fold it and wedge it between my knee and the control wheel which is a tad uncomfortable with an iPad. Also, I can throw it in the rear cockpit when I join the circuit, which might upset an iPad. I can fold it cleverly and use it as a screen to practice IF. The ipad is too small, heavy and prone to falling over.
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Old 11th Nov 2017, 19:15
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And that would only be once you had total electrical failure


My own little aeroplane has no electrics, good job I have a 1/4 mill map.
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Old 11th Nov 2017, 21:36
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Originally Posted by Sam Rutherford View Post
Of course, you'd then discover you don't actually have the right map anyway...

Sam really,,,,,,!
May I assume that you are the same Sam Rutherford who organised the Ushuaia Air Rally.
So are you trying to tell us all that all those 'old pilots' who are taking part are just magenta line followers ?
Of course , they probably are using tablet devices , but in the event of them freezing over , or overheating then I don't think for a second that they wouldn't have the relevant charts to hand. You wouldn't allow entrants who hadn't done their homework would you mate ?...


Can't see any of them being nominated for the Bill Woodhams award if they hadn't..
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 04:26
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Originally Posted by mothminor View Post
And that would only be once you had total electrical failure


My own little aeroplane has no electrics, good job I have a 1/4 mill map.
I could never understand the opposition to using a quarter mil instead of the 'standard' half mil.
All instructors all seem to trot out the same spiel 'you shouldn't use one because there is too much detail and it confuses students.'
Where did they get that from? I used one from day 1 of my PPL course at Cambridge and I never got confused, in fact I found it helped as there were clear landmarks on the quarter mil which weren't on the half mil.(On cross countries, I also carried a USAF One mil as it had all the runway patterns of all airfields in East Anglia, both in use and disused, marked on it)
Is it something instructors are 'taught' to say on their instructor course?

Last edited by chevvron; 12th Nov 2017 at 11:19.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 07:36
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Thanks Chris! :-)

We do give everyone charts, but it's out of a feeling that we should, rather than a belief they'll use them.

Indeed, throwing a bit of fuel on the fire, I actually think that using a chart rather than an electronic alternative is poor airmanship.

Anything that reduces pilot workload and is perfectly up to date all the time (and even pings up notam zones automatically - love that one) should be used. Artificially making life more difficult than it needs to be cannot be a good thing.

At it's most simple, assuming equal competence with both, a pilot is less likely to get lost/infringe airspace/use wrong frequency etc. etc. if they are using an ipad rather than a chart.

Then, really throwing my hat in the ring, I'm a firm believer that both driverless cars and driverless planes will greatly increase safety. I'll be keeping my classic sports car or old spam-can - but I'll be aware that in using them I'm making a choice of fun/interest/challenge over safety.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 09:37
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Number One: paper charts are not obsolete, at the contrary, and I advice everybody to train in usage - and do it north up. For flying and keeping your intuition for orientation in space there is none better.
Number Two: a lot of brain laziness is produced by moving maps, but there definitely is one benefit for electronic charts - for operating an aircraft. I emphasize that way because there is a big difference between manual piloting an aircraft and let do electronics operating an aircraft. Using all the electronic gadgets, being able to push buttons, configure irritating track up moving maps is not airmenship in my eyes, it is simple computer systems operations.

I do prefer to fly an aircraft, but I am an old fart and enjoy even planes that old they even don't have any electricity.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 10:18
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Airmanship is knowledge of the 'big picture' and where one fits into it. The more mental capacity one uses up with navigation, the less one has available for all the other important stuff such as lookout, listening out, aircraft management and communication.

I was brought up using paper charts and a stopwatch and was trained by the UK military system to fly at extremely low levels (day and night) to land at given grid references within fifteen seconds of a given time. I have always used the 'track up' method of holding a chart because that is the best way to orientate oneself when it comes to left and right. Turn up the wrong valley at low level in poor weather and you're a dead man.

These days I'm very happy to follow a magenta coloured line because it frees more brain cells and allows me more time to maintain a good lookout. I seem to spot most light aircraft long before their pilots have seen me, at least if said pilots do know and intend to comply with the rules of the air with regard to giving way to aircraft on the right, or the head on rule. I can only assume that some of those pilots who should have carried out the necessary avoiding action for my aircraft when they didn't have right of way are those with eyes pointing inside the cockpit for too long, looking at a paper chart, worrying about their next turning point.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 12:48
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Pedant mode set to ON.
When I was learning to fly, I was taught that maps are what pirates use, whereas charts are specifically for use by navigators
I'll get my coat.........
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 12:51
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Used in conjunction with an Ipad, a chart can be very useful. As a shade to prevent stewed Apple.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 14:18
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
I could never understand the opposition to using a quarter mil instead of the 'standard' half mil.
I thought it stopped showing airspace at not very much above treetop height?
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 16:45
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These are available from Luddite.co.uk


http://justus.ownit.nu/flyg/flygkart...utes/AAR_7.htm
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 16:47
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Paper maps are wonderful. They never break down. And consider the rich information-per-square-cm in an OS map compared to crap Googlemaps.
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Old 12th Nov 2017, 18:07
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I gave someone a lift yesterday. He tried to give me directions by fiddling around with some electronic gadget! - by the time I'd arrived at the destination he still hadn't found it. It would have taken seconds with a paper map; I had one in the car, I nearly passed it to him, but todays kids have probably never seen one and wouldn't know what to do with it.
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