iPad for flying
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,684
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From: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Around 70% of infringements are by pilots NOT using a GPS.
Have a backup by all means (paper map as well, of course) but today we need to know where we are like never before.
TOO
(Skydemon on 8" Tab 3. 8 hrs between charges and NO overheating. Backup Garmin 96. Backup to the backup current paper chart with line drawn on it)
Have a backup by all means (paper map as well, of course) but today we need to know where we are like never before.
TOO
(Skydemon on 8" Tab 3. 8 hrs between charges and NO overheating. Backup Garmin 96. Backup to the backup current paper chart with line drawn on it)
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 270
Likes: 1
From: Near the Mountains of Sussex
The airlines are using Ipads / tablets for electronic library....i.e.no paper charts. OK they have a certain amount of info also contained within the FMS, but in reality rely on the two tablets ........if its good enough for them , then ???
Last edited by Blink182; 15th October 2016 at 18:41.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
From: Wor Yerm
Airlines do have iPads, but not for navigation. And if both of ours pack up as well as the internal systems fail, we will still be OK. DR still works OK. Also old fashioned Mk. I eyeball is still valid, like today with a visual approach. A/P, A/T, F/D off - as it should be. Not a drop of FMS, DME or anything else. Just old fashioned TLAR. A bit like being in a bug-smasher.
But if if you do use a bloody iPad, why bother with the actual nasty, expensive flying bit? Just send a damn drone up, programmed to follow a pre-programmed route, record what it flew over and replay it ad nauseum. Job done. You don't even have to leave home.
So if I get this right, iPads must be used by PPL's to avoid controlled airspace. Well if that is the case, I'll suggest that anybody infringing controlled airspace should be imprisoned, because they have no excuse. No wonder private flying is doomed. An own goal scored by incompetents.
PM
But if if you do use a bloody iPad, why bother with the actual nasty, expensive flying bit? Just send a damn drone up, programmed to follow a pre-programmed route, record what it flew over and replay it ad nauseum. Job done. You don't even have to leave home.
So if I get this right, iPads must be used by PPL's to avoid controlled airspace. Well if that is the case, I'll suggest that anybody infringing controlled airspace should be imprisoned, because they have no excuse. No wonder private flying is doomed. An own goal scored by incompetents.
PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 240
Likes: 9
From: Lestah
Hopefully you will come and visit us all in prison Piltdown. And yes, with us all in prison, GA will look pretty doomed.
Just whack the prison post code into your GPS and Bob's your Uncle. And don't turn up late for the visiting hours saying you got lost along the way. That would be equally incompetent.
Just whack the prison post code into your GPS and Bob's your Uncle. And don't turn up late for the visiting hours saying you got lost along the way. That would be equally incompetent.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
From: Wor Yerm
I'll find the prison with a map thanks. I'll make sure I bring some snout as well, so you can pay the big boys not to mess about with you in the showers...
But seriously, flying in small aircraft should not be a gadget arms race. I can not see the additional pleasure gained in having to check version numbers of downloads, database validity dates, charge states and manufacturers' notices before comparing my GPS maps with the official 1/2 mil. charts. And then typing in waypoints, checking for airspace infringements and then doing all the things you have to do anyway.
Weather, NOTAMS, draw a line or two, plan (2-3 minutes max) weight & balance (rule of thumb), performance (rule of thumb) and fly... S M I L E as you enjoy the view out of the window. That is what flying is about. I certainly was when I did it both for pleasure and money.
And on the subject, a few months ago the CAA Enforcement Branch asked for input regarding possible new punishments for airspace infringements. They were suggesting unlimited fines and imprisonment as a way of deterring people. My submission to them was that this would make no difference as these were non-intentional violations and draconian punishments would have little effect on infringements. Maybe I was naive. In my mind's eye I was imagining a well trained PPL with map, compass and stopwatch getting his numbers wrong. A genuine mistake. But you lot telling me that you are whizzing around the sky relying in silicon to keep you out of trouble. It sounds like it won't be long before 100% of violations are made by pilots who should their current and expected positions to within plus/minus 10 meters. Then what excuse will you have? You weren't trained? Database error? Incompetence?
Keep smiling.
PM
But seriously, flying in small aircraft should not be a gadget arms race. I can not see the additional pleasure gained in having to check version numbers of downloads, database validity dates, charge states and manufacturers' notices before comparing my GPS maps with the official 1/2 mil. charts. And then typing in waypoints, checking for airspace infringements and then doing all the things you have to do anyway.
Weather, NOTAMS, draw a line or two, plan (2-3 minutes max) weight & balance (rule of thumb), performance (rule of thumb) and fly... S M I L E as you enjoy the view out of the window. That is what flying is about. I certainly was when I did it both for pleasure and money.
And on the subject, a few months ago the CAA Enforcement Branch asked for input regarding possible new punishments for airspace infringements. They were suggesting unlimited fines and imprisonment as a way of deterring people. My submission to them was that this would make no difference as these were non-intentional violations and draconian punishments would have little effect on infringements. Maybe I was naive. In my mind's eye I was imagining a well trained PPL with map, compass and stopwatch getting his numbers wrong. A genuine mistake. But you lot telling me that you are whizzing around the sky relying in silicon to keep you out of trouble. It sounds like it won't be long before 100% of violations are made by pilots who should their current and expected positions to within plus/minus 10 meters. Then what excuse will you have? You weren't trained? Database error? Incompetence?
Keep smiling.
PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
From: Sherborne, UK
The infringements data seems to indicate that it is guys without GPS or digital planning tool of any kind who are vastly more likely to infringe. Imagine a scenario where a pilot gets all his carefully drawn lines on his paper chart (just as he was trained to do), and flies his plan exactly right - but oh no! he is using a paper chart where every AIRAC amendment and NOTAM has not been carefully annotated since the chart was published, and his perfectly planned route flies straight through airspace he was unaware of.
Furthermore, having GPS on board can be a godsend when accused of infringing; I have heard a number of instances where a controller has insisted CA has been breached and subsequently started "the process" for raking the pilot over the coals - but then the pilot produces his track logs and can demonstrate exactly how well outside the zone he was. Without GPS you have pretty much no right of reply when accused of infringement, and no warnings popping up to notify you before the infringement happens, so infringement is more likely.
The times GPS is not so helpful is when the pilot doesn't understand how to set the warnings appropriately, when he doesn't update the aeronautical data, and when he doesn't appreciate the nature of GPS error and the conditions under which GPS functions sub-optimally. This could be remedied by a few hours briefing as part of the PPL syllabus - GPS is a tool, not a magical anti-infringements device, and we need to make sure that the benefits and limitations of the tool are well understood to optimise its effectiveness.
Furthermore, having GPS on board can be a godsend when accused of infringing; I have heard a number of instances where a controller has insisted CA has been breached and subsequently started "the process" for raking the pilot over the coals - but then the pilot produces his track logs and can demonstrate exactly how well outside the zone he was. Without GPS you have pretty much no right of reply when accused of infringement, and no warnings popping up to notify you before the infringement happens, so infringement is more likely.
The times GPS is not so helpful is when the pilot doesn't understand how to set the warnings appropriately, when he doesn't update the aeronautical data, and when he doesn't appreciate the nature of GPS error and the conditions under which GPS functions sub-optimally. This could be remedied by a few hours briefing as part of the PPL syllabus - GPS is a tool, not a magical anti-infringements device, and we need to make sure that the benefits and limitations of the tool are well understood to optimise its effectiveness.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
From: Wor Yerm
Bobby, you make your point well but the limiting factor will always be the integrity inherent in such a device. To boldly go where the device says it is OK is not the solution, especially since such devices do not normally display their current accuracy status. Nor do I reckon RAIM status is checked before flight. Without knowing that status, you cannot prove where you have been key alone use it to drive you to where you want to be. But to be honest, I think we will be splitting hairs forever.
I used to take pleasure in navigation, both in teaching and application. I used to think it a worthwhile skill. But you lot don't and it appears that I'm in a minority of one here. You are obviously armed with multiple GPS systems with moving maps, know the seconds to go to each waypoint etc. So if you people get pleasure from following a bloody iPad around the circuit - knock yourselves out!
PM
I used to take pleasure in navigation, both in teaching and application. I used to think it a worthwhile skill. But you lot don't and it appears that I'm in a minority of one here. You are obviously armed with multiple GPS systems with moving maps, know the seconds to go to each waypoint etc. So if you people get pleasure from following a bloody iPad around the circuit - knock yourselves out!
PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,349
Likes: 844
From: Tring, UK
This is what I posted on the SkyDemon thread:
The statistics say you are much less likely to end up where you shouldn’t be if you have some sort of GPS-driven map. If you want to be a purist, keep it under a cover and only look at it if it gives you a warning. I agree with others in this thread that deliberately shunning a navigational aid that could have prevented an infringement is not likely to generate much sympathy from the CAA or the judicial system. Yes, it’s legal, yes, given care and attention you can navigate with reasonable precision using “old” methods. But is it sensible and is it fair to other airspace users who one day you may unwittingly come into close proximity to?
Soon we will be having this discussion over electronic conspicuity. It’s one thing to defend our freedom to fly and quite another to defend endangering others...
It seems fairly obvious (I started learning navigation the “traditional” way) but there are now some interesting counter arguments.
In the gliding movement there is a very similar discussion going on. Yes, teach conventional visual navigation but introduce modern kit at the same time, so when you send someone off on their first cross-country, they have something to fall back on.
In the past, if you became “uncertain of your position”, the advice was to carry on for a bit and if you couldn’t relate to anything on the map, to land in a field before you ended up somewhere you really shouldn’t be. Given the high workload / high stress situation of the first solo flight away from the airfield, trying to stay up as well as navigate, how many incidents / accidents had this as a prominent factor?
Also, in today’s complicated, crowded multi-use airspace, how much leeway is there for making navigational errors before the consequences become serious, given traffic density and the promise of increasing litigation from the regulator? There is definitely a “duty of care” issue and considering you can put together a GPS moving map on a PDA with mount for around £100, there are no excuses. Especially in front of a magistrate.
Being able to have controlled airspace, obstacles, drop zones, danger areas, winch sites, NOTAMs, etc. pop up on the map with a “bing!” if you get too close is such an improvement on what we used to have, that the safety case is obvious. Would you drive a car with no seat belts on the motorway? It’s getting to that point.
I still feel that basic navigation skills should be taught to competence but after that, anything that makes it easier and safer should be welcomed.
In the gliding movement there is a very similar discussion going on. Yes, teach conventional visual navigation but introduce modern kit at the same time, so when you send someone off on their first cross-country, they have something to fall back on.
In the past, if you became “uncertain of your position”, the advice was to carry on for a bit and if you couldn’t relate to anything on the map, to land in a field before you ended up somewhere you really shouldn’t be. Given the high workload / high stress situation of the first solo flight away from the airfield, trying to stay up as well as navigate, how many incidents / accidents had this as a prominent factor?
Also, in today’s complicated, crowded multi-use airspace, how much leeway is there for making navigational errors before the consequences become serious, given traffic density and the promise of increasing litigation from the regulator? There is definitely a “duty of care” issue and considering you can put together a GPS moving map on a PDA with mount for around £100, there are no excuses. Especially in front of a magistrate.
Being able to have controlled airspace, obstacles, drop zones, danger areas, winch sites, NOTAMs, etc. pop up on the map with a “bing!” if you get too close is such an improvement on what we used to have, that the safety case is obvious. Would you drive a car with no seat belts on the motorway? It’s getting to that point.
I still feel that basic navigation skills should be taught to competence but after that, anything that makes it easier and safer should be welcomed.
Soon we will be having this discussion over electronic conspicuity. It’s one thing to defend our freedom to fly and quite another to defend endangering others...
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 744
Likes: 5
From: london
Even by the standards of pprune, this thread smacks of childishness.
Almost every rotary pilot I know draws a line on a chart AND uses a moving map as confirmation. It is never either or. If you really think that the joy of flying is purely about navigation as opposed to being in the air then we really are doomed.
My partner has just achieved her PPL and still uses a map and compass. Very good she is too. BUT it isnt foolproof as we all know and as she cant spell GPS (it being banned for training) when it goes wrong.......
We need to wake up and accept infringements arent a joke; they are dangerous, costly and risk a criminal record. Anyone, especially a commercial pilot, who deprecates the use of GPS is potentially putting people in harms way. GPS needs to be part of the basic PPL sylabus as an ADDITION to a paper chart
Almost every rotary pilot I know draws a line on a chart AND uses a moving map as confirmation. It is never either or. If you really think that the joy of flying is purely about navigation as opposed to being in the air then we really are doomed.
My partner has just achieved her PPL and still uses a map and compass. Very good she is too. BUT it isnt foolproof as we all know and as she cant spell GPS (it being banned for training) when it goes wrong.......
We need to wake up and accept infringements arent a joke; they are dangerous, costly and risk a criminal record. Anyone, especially a commercial pilot, who deprecates the use of GPS is potentially putting people in harms way. GPS needs to be part of the basic PPL sylabus as an ADDITION to a paper chart
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
I don't think anyone is suggesting that stopwatch and chicken bone nav is the only way it should be done. But, it should be learned first.
If a student is being taught both at the same time they will obviously take the line of least resistance and pay less attention to the old method, degenerating over the years as less and less to the point of none at all, then the skill is lost forever.
I once watched a student pilot place the protractor on a paper chart with the North pointer facing East. Easily done if you have no conception of where north is or how many degrees there are round the planet.
If a student is being taught both at the same time they will obviously take the line of least resistance and pay less attention to the old method, degenerating over the years as less and less to the point of none at all, then the skill is lost forever.
I once watched a student pilot place the protractor on a paper chart with the North pointer facing East. Easily done if you have no conception of where north is or how many degrees there are round the planet.
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: UK
for what its worth, i have an ipad2, the type that you can put a phone sim card in, i believe it is called pseudo-gps, it works out its position from telephone masts, works well with a memory map half mill chart until you get into darkest west wales where it seems to be a bit short of masts.
Joined: Apr 2006
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 240
Likes: 9
From: Lestah
Piltdown,
Where in this thread have people said they are dispensing with traditional methods in favour of relying solely on GPS?
And where is it claimed that we are using GPS to navigate ourselves around a circuit pattern?
Because I don't see any of that and nor would I expect to.
What I do see is a sensible approach being portrayed to enhance safety by the additional use of modern technology. Just because I use GPS doesn't mean I suddenly turn up 20 mins before departure and willingly ignore the MET Office, Notams, Plogs, max drift calcs, fuel burn and all the potential hazards along the route.
Airspace busts for us can have very serious consequences not just primarily to safety, but also to our licensing and wallet. Anything over and above that which mitigates those risks down needs to be looked at and if valuable, applied. And GPS fits that. The CAA themselves endorse. I have sat through their safety briefs on infringements and listened to them tell us about available options including GPS.
The only time I want tea and biscuits at Gatwick is when I go on holiday and not as an invitation to the CAA to explain myself.
Where in this thread have people said they are dispensing with traditional methods in favour of relying solely on GPS?
And where is it claimed that we are using GPS to navigate ourselves around a circuit pattern?
Because I don't see any of that and nor would I expect to.
What I do see is a sensible approach being portrayed to enhance safety by the additional use of modern technology. Just because I use GPS doesn't mean I suddenly turn up 20 mins before departure and willingly ignore the MET Office, Notams, Plogs, max drift calcs, fuel burn and all the potential hazards along the route.
Airspace busts for us can have very serious consequences not just primarily to safety, but also to our licensing and wallet. Anything over and above that which mitigates those risks down needs to be looked at and if valuable, applied. And GPS fits that. The CAA themselves endorse. I have sat through their safety briefs on infringements and listened to them tell us about available options including GPS.
The only time I want tea and biscuits at Gatwick is when I go on holiday and not as an invitation to the CAA to explain myself.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,115
Likes: 1,091
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
But seriously, flying in small aircraft should not be a gadget arms race. I can not see the additional pleasure gained in having to check version numbers of downloads, database validity dates, charge states and manufacturers' notices before comparing my GPS maps with the official 1/2 mil. charts. And then typing in waypoints, checking for airspace infringements and then doing all the things you have to do anyway.
Aviation applications now in common use do it for you. I've just switched on my mini Ipad and entered a pre-planned a route via Skydemon. Before it let me in it told me there were updated charts available and it has just downloaded them for me (UK, France, Ireland). It does so on a very regular basis and takes a few seconds; faster than I could access the CAA website to even begin looking for their latest chart changes, let alone start looking up lat/longs and plotting them.
Flying at ultra low level and putting troops on the ground within a 15 second "window" and teaching others how to do it used to be my "bread and butter" job, for almost twenty years. All done in the very early part of my career without GPS or Navaids of any sort. So I know how to do it as well as anyone. But it was almost half a century ago, ancient technology, all in the past. We progress and move on. The aircraft I fly now has twin GPS, terrain warning, TCAS. I plan my flights on the ground using an Ipad and Google Earth to find waypoint and landing site co-ordinates then fly using the chart portrayed on the aircraft's GPS units. Obviously, pilots need to know how to navigate using a chart and stop watch. But on every flight? Not these days. As the military still say "Why practice bleeding?"
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Falling off the end of the thread
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3
Likes: 5
From: Wor Yerm
ShyTorque - I used to keep my charts up to date as best I could and you are right, I missed many things. But as I said, I'm in a minority of one here. I also have not held a valid PPL for years and you guys have done a fantastic job in persuading me that it is not worth resurrecting the thing. The spontenatey of aviation appears to have gone, damaged it appears by the punitive action taken by the CAA when dealing with airspace infringers. Therefore, please ignore my previous posts - I appear to be a relic from the past.
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