Dundee
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Dundee
Planning a visit to North East Scotland and would appreciate any additional advice, insight, local knowledge etc.
Landing fee + Handling for 2 days at Aberdeen £285
Similar at RAF Leuchars
Around £25 at Dundee
Just means a slightly longer (+40 mins) drive to destination
The lady answering the phone at Tayside Aviation was very helpful and I can get a hire car delivered for collection on arrival.
I plan to transit Liverpool and route directly north, not above FL100 due no oxygen but as high as reasonable below airways. This will take me slightly to the east of Edinburgh and west of Leuchars.
Intend to remain VFR but I do have IR(R) rating if required so might be VFR on top.
I'm sure the nice people at Scottish Info will be their usual helpful selves
.
1) What altitude would be reasonable to expect a transit through Edinburgh airspace and any particular routing that's more favoured by ATC?
2) Leuchars appear to be one of only 3 UK LARS services that are 24H (according to the AIP), so I should expect to be handed over to them when north of the Forth, even on weekends.
3) Dundee does have instrument approaches which are all out to the west, presumably against prevailing wind direction so need a circle to land. I guess the Tay Road Bridge was a bit of an unmoveable object for ILS designers to work around
Presumably Leuchars would provide radar vectors to the ILS on request if required and effectively act as the approach controllers for Dundee?
4) Is Perth a sensible weather alternate, given that it is so nearby and may suffer the same bad weather (plus has no instrument approaches)? The high cost of Edinburgh or Aberdeen puts me off them as alternates, although I'd use them if necessary under the Strasser scheme.
Any other guidance, local knowledge etc. much appreciated
Landing fee + Handling for 2 days at Aberdeen £285
Similar at RAF Leuchars
Around £25 at Dundee
Just means a slightly longer (+40 mins) drive to destination
The lady answering the phone at Tayside Aviation was very helpful and I can get a hire car delivered for collection on arrival.
I plan to transit Liverpool and route directly north, not above FL100 due no oxygen but as high as reasonable below airways. This will take me slightly to the east of Edinburgh and west of Leuchars.
Intend to remain VFR but I do have IR(R) rating if required so might be VFR on top.
I'm sure the nice people at Scottish Info will be their usual helpful selves
.1) What altitude would be reasonable to expect a transit through Edinburgh airspace and any particular routing that's more favoured by ATC?
2) Leuchars appear to be one of only 3 UK LARS services that are 24H (according to the AIP), so I should expect to be handed over to them when north of the Forth, even on weekends.
3) Dundee does have instrument approaches which are all out to the west, presumably against prevailing wind direction so need a circle to land. I guess the Tay Road Bridge was a bit of an unmoveable object for ILS designers to work around
Presumably Leuchars would provide radar vectors to the ILS on request if required and effectively act as the approach controllers for Dundee?4) Is Perth a sensible weather alternate, given that it is so nearby and may suffer the same bad weather (plus has no instrument approaches)? The high cost of Edinburgh or Aberdeen puts me off them as alternates, although I'd use them if necessary under the Strasser scheme.
Any other guidance, local knowledge etc. much appreciated
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You won't get radar vectors onto the ILS you will have to fly the procedure.
EDI it depends what end of the runway that they are using.
And it depends were your destination actually is and what machine you are flying and how much runway you need.
there is Fife as well
EDI it depends what end of the runway that they are using.
And it depends were your destination actually is and what machine you are flying and how much runway you need.
there is Fife as well
I use Dundee from time to time, just as you are describing.
I agree - IAPs from the West so most likely a circling approach. As yet I've never actually used that.
Is it that hard to just go around Edinburgh? That's what I always have done.
Prestwick is the other side of the country but affordable, friendly, and has excellent public transport links as well as the best runway availability in Scotland and more IAPs than you can shake a stick at. That might be the best alternate. After all you don't need to actually use your declared alternate if there's a better choice at the time.
G
I agree - IAPs from the West so most likely a circling approach. As yet I've never actually used that.
Is it that hard to just go around Edinburgh? That's what I always have done.
Prestwick is the other side of the country but affordable, friendly, and has excellent public transport links as well as the best runway availability in Scotland and more IAPs than you can shake a stick at. That might be the best alternate. After all you don't need to actually use your declared alternate if there's a better choice at the time.
G
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If you plan to cruise at about F100 I would suggest a LARS service from Warton whom will then hand you off to our Tay sector at Scottish who should give you a traffic service......depending on your route I suggest if you stay east of the Scottish TMA Scottish will transfer you to Leuchars before hand off to Dundee. If you require to over fly Edinburgh I would guess they would like you down below min stack level before hitting their airspace so maybe plan on 6000ft by the EDN.
Mind you if you stay at F055 or below you will get a nice friendly Basic Service from myself
Mind you if you stay at F055 or below you will get a nice friendly Basic Service from myself
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If Dundee is murky then Perth is either going to be at least as bad, or sparkly clear! If it is the haar at Dundee then Perth is often clear. If it is low cloud and assorted weather then Perth is likely to be worst being higher and nearer the hills. Coming from the south, Fife has some surprisingly high bits.
Transiting Edinburgh south to north can be long winded it is usually much quicker to either go low to the west or higher to the east over the water. Either way they are usually very keen to talk to passing traffic to ensure transponded levels are correct.
Fishbang and his crew will usually co-ordinate all this long before you arrive if you are talking to them.
Transiting Edinburgh south to north can be long winded it is usually much quicker to either go low to the west or higher to the east over the water. Either way they are usually very keen to talk to passing traffic to ensure transponded levels are correct.
Fishbang and his crew will usually co-ordinate all this long before you arrive if you are talking to them.
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Thanks for the helpful feedback
Between Aberdeen and Dundee, so Prestwick wouldn't be a convenient alternate (although concur it is a great facility which I have been to)
That's helpful to know
Sadly Warton LARS doesn't appear to operate at weekends. I guess north of Liverpool zone I will be back to London Info then handover to Scottish Info for their widely acclaimed Basic Service.
Sounds like a good plan, perhaps just high enough to cross overhead EGD510A. I can see that routing east of EDN zone would actually be a more direct route, just slightly more over water.
I find people do that when they see my landings normally. Or other choice words.
Not quite sure I caught the second runway concept - did you mean the riverside drive road running parallel?
Exactly the local knowledge I was looking for. Very helpful
Am looking forward to it
Thanks everybody
What is your final destination?
You won't get radar vectors onto the ILS you will have to fly the procedure
IAPs from the West so most likely a circling approach
a LARS service from Warton whom will then hand you off to our Tay sector at Scottish
plan on 6000ft by the EDN
if you stay at F055 or below you will get a nice friendly Basic Service from myself
You can even land on Dundee's seconded runway and all we will do is take the piss and call you biggles
Not quite sure I caught the second runway concept - did you mean the riverside drive road running parallel?
If it is the haar at Dundee then Perth is often clear. If it is low cloud and assorted weather then Perth is likely to be worst
Don't worry about it, everyone is very friendly up north.
Thanks everybody
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Just get a hire car and drive from Dundee. Its a good road and your straight on the bypass after turning left from the airport.
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...wn-dundee.html
This will fill you in about Dundees second runway.
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...wn-dundee.html
This will fill you in about Dundees second runway.
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The sense of humour up North is drier than dry. The second runway at Dundee is golf course on the northern edge of the city. When forced to landed there (because Dundee was too difficult) you have to land in a tree - because Biggles did it. Searching PPrune will probably unearth a massive thread!
The haar is fairly unpredictable, Dundee can be vulnerable, but that might well leave Fife or Perth clear. Worst case there is always Edinburgh or Aberdeen - it is after all only money!
The haar is fairly unpredictable, Dundee can be vulnerable, but that might well leave Fife or Perth clear. Worst case there is always Edinburgh or Aberdeen - it is after all only money!
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'Presumably Leuchars would provide radar vectors to the ILS on request if required and effectively act as the approach controllers for Dundee?'
No Leuchars do not provide that service as Dundee is procedural and send you o/h the DND at 3000' then to dnd tower. They'll provide the LARS from around 40nms out, outside CAS obviously. Although the AIP says 24h, I don't imagine they will provide a basic/traffic service to anything past 2200L unless there was specific reason to... E.g. Emergencies/SAR cover.
I've always found them very helpful towards GA, especially at weekends when it is clearly 9999's blue sky and you can hear them working their ass off for 9-10hours with all us going for our £100 burgers at Fife.
No Leuchars do not provide that service as Dundee is procedural and send you o/h the DND at 3000' then to dnd tower. They'll provide the LARS from around 40nms out, outside CAS obviously. Although the AIP says 24h, I don't imagine they will provide a basic/traffic service to anything past 2200L unless there was specific reason to... E.g. Emergencies/SAR cover.
I've always found them very helpful towards GA, especially at weekends when it is clearly 9999's blue sky and you can hear them working their ass off for 9-10hours with all us going for our £100 burgers at Fife.
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Quite a successful trip in the end. Weather was fantastic CAVOK so beautiful views all the way. Dundee was definitely the right choice. Hire car waiting for us with Tayside Aviation, which is a busy flight training school. Easy drive to destination, no delays on the ground.
But I wouldn't recommend arriving VFR heading north to EDI from TAL at 5000 feet as I did. Not knowing what's really feasible or to ask for (or the traffic situation), I fluffed the initial call to EDI approach and was given a standby followed by radio silence. In the end I got a transit north across the Forth from Musselborough at 4000 feet.
Before returning, Tayside Aviation recommended I telephone EDI Approach who suggested a routing via Kelti and overhead at 2000 feet. This meant circling over the bridges for a while until a gap appeared. In retrospect, the Musselborough routing would have been more expeditious but the view from the Forth Bridges was fun. It's clear there is a constant stream of commercial traffic to deal with, so is not trivial to accommodate VFR transits in this way.
I have no idea what routings might be possible VFR at higher levels but at least now know that ATC are accessible to discuss by phone. I couldn't find any published document explaining the possible VFR options similar to what I've seen from Bristol.
Somewhat unusual join at Dundee. As I was descending through 1600 feet still in the Leuchars MATZ, Dundee told me they prefer you to remain at 2000 feet while south of the Tay so had to climb again briefly. I was told to join descending downwind into the circuit with one on short final and another well behind turning crosswind. The riverside location makes for great views.
Scottish Information exceeded expectations, proffering relevant weather information and updates on our destination without prompting. Leuchars steered us clear of paradropping at Glenrothes.
But I wouldn't recommend arriving VFR heading north to EDI from TAL at 5000 feet as I did. Not knowing what's really feasible or to ask for (or the traffic situation), I fluffed the initial call to EDI approach and was given a standby followed by radio silence. In the end I got a transit north across the Forth from Musselborough at 4000 feet.
Before returning, Tayside Aviation recommended I telephone EDI Approach who suggested a routing via Kelti and overhead at 2000 feet. This meant circling over the bridges for a while until a gap appeared. In retrospect, the Musselborough routing would have been more expeditious but the view from the Forth Bridges was fun. It's clear there is a constant stream of commercial traffic to deal with, so is not trivial to accommodate VFR transits in this way.
I have no idea what routings might be possible VFR at higher levels but at least now know that ATC are accessible to discuss by phone. I couldn't find any published document explaining the possible VFR options similar to what I've seen from Bristol.
Somewhat unusual join at Dundee. As I was descending through 1600 feet still in the Leuchars MATZ, Dundee told me they prefer you to remain at 2000 feet while south of the Tay so had to climb again briefly. I was told to join descending downwind into the circuit with one on short final and another well behind turning crosswind. The riverside location makes for great views.
Scottish Information exceeded expectations, proffering relevant weather information and updates on our destination without prompting. Leuchars steered us clear of paradropping at Glenrothes.
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You flew single engine over Fife!!
Sorry we should have warned you about that.
You need special jabs if you do that and a survival course in case of engine failure.
Its like wickerman except its not skinny attractive women you will be dealing with.
You need special jabs if you do that and a survival course in case of engine failure.
Its like wickerman except its not skinny attractive women you will be dealing with.
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MJ
Sky demon have recognized the extreme risks of coming down in Fife and have included a Safe Glide feature which offers suggested altitudes when crossing Fife that will allow a dead stick into Angus or Perthshire or falling that putting her down in the drink.
You flew single engine over Fife!!
Sorry we should have warned you about that.
You need special jabs if you do that and a survival course in case of engine failure.
Sorry we should have warned you about that.
You need special jabs if you do that and a survival course in case of engine failure.
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That's good to hear piper boy. They should really have something on the Scottish chart as well.
Sunny you weren't to know but TAL is the hand over point and approach hold from Area to EDI approach. FL60 if I remember correctly so on QNH you might have caused them to loose a level and then to have to coordinate more with Scottish area.
I would have had two plans depending on the runway in use and then aimed for 7-8 miles off the departure end at 1500-2000ft.
Most would have gone east and run up the coast its quite pretty more than anything else. And then crossed about bass rock which is also worth a look. Don't get near it though as there can be thousands of birds.
And sorry no lat/long I presume they shipped them in for the film.
Sunny you weren't to know but TAL is the hand over point and approach hold from Area to EDI approach. FL60 if I remember correctly so on QNH you might have caused them to loose a level and then to have to coordinate more with Scottish area.
I would have had two plans depending on the runway in use and then aimed for 7-8 miles off the departure end at 1500-2000ft.
Most would have gone east and run up the coast its quite pretty more than anything else. And then crossed about bass rock which is also worth a look. Don't get near it though as there can be thousands of birds.
And sorry no lat/long I presume they shipped them in for the film.
