Conversion from PA28 to Cessna 152

[glendalegoon]

there is a possiblity the flaps won't come up due to electrical failure

but this is rare of course

[thing]

They won't climb mind but that should then give them a hint that they haven't put the flaps away.

Don't know why (blame the usquebaugh) but that has left me with tears streaming down my face. Well done that man!

Edit: Well Matt, now you know that you will die as soon as you look at a 152 are you glad you asked the question?

[Mach Jump]

Absoutley nothing will happen stall wise if the pilot has been trained to attitude fly and sets the normal climb attitude of 10 degrees.

I'm sure you are right MJ, but sadly many pilots have not been so well trained, and we have to cater for them as well.

there is a possibility the flaps won't come up due to electrical failure

but this is rare of course

This is rare, but I have seen it happen, and it was 'interesting' watching that C150 do a whole circuit with full flap.

MJ

[Glasgow_Flyer]

MJ - I agree with what your saying re stall recovery in app config - and that was true for me when I was in Scotland.

Arrive in Aus - I found myself having to demonstrate recovery (actually in a 152 in app config) in a fully developed stall.

I was like - erm, this is new and quite good fun, but surly I've done this before - perhaps not!

[mad_jock]

and we have to cater for them as well.

We don't all that happens with instructors gold plating is that it drives punters away from flying and schools.

Personally I always did very relaxed checkouts and type differences training. the 30mins in the circuit was the norm.

Then when we got back I told them they were good to go and said we had an advanced handling courses, including short grass strips, mountain flying etc etc. And because they had enjoyed the checkout/differences training pretty much all of them came back for additional none required training.

If they booked the plane solo and were by themselves and spotted that we had a free instructor slot they would quite often ask for the instructor to come along as well and go and do some general handling including stalls out of any situations that both of us could think of.

But as I always taught reduce the AoA wings level, power up and clean up. We mostly got bored of that quite quickly and then started the PFL game.

Maybe the reason why I did 900hours a year when I was a full time instructor.

And to my knowledge none of mine have crashed so far touch wood.

[Pace]

I too used to be thrown a set of keys and told take that for a company I was involved in some 15 yrs back.

These were not simple aeroplanes like a PA28 or 152.

As MJ says spend some time with the POH and then again sit in the aircraft and working across finger touch everything so you know where and what everything is.

All SEPs are a variation on a theme and its more a case of finding out the differences which you can usually count on one hand.
I would question anyone expecting more than an hour to convert from a PA28 to a C150 as being more interested in your wallet

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

All SEPs are a variation on a theme and its more a case of finding out the differences which you can usually count on one hand.
I would question anyone expecting more than an hour to convert from a PA28 to a C150 as being more interested in your wallet

Not uniquely, I have a big book of kneeboard cards I've produced for my own use, which remind me of the key values and features of whatever I happen to be flying next. That said, each one probably took me half a day with the manuals to produce.

Which is an important point I think. There's far too much of a culture in the UK of "just get in and fly it". There is a reason why we have POHs and similar documents - it's to learn about the aeroplane before you get in it. The pilot who takes their time with the books to get to know the aeroplane, probably will do it inside an hour.

The pilot who doesn't will take more hours, and the instructor who doesn't ask pilots to spend some book time before flying, is probably just after the hours.

G

[Gertrude the Wombat]

But surely you wouldn't do a go round with full flap?

What else do you do after you've bounced twice and are heading rapidly towards the edge of the runway?

[mad_jock]

What else do you do after you've bounced twice and are heading rapidly towards the edge of the runway?

H'mm some take there hands off everything and scream like a girl but refuse to fly the approach at 65knts instead of the 80knts which their instructor told them they would die horribly if they went slower than.

Just reminded me of talking to the old girl next door.

She was sent down to leeds to pick up a Lancaster bomber for delivery up to Inverness all she had was hand written pilot notes on the train to read for her first flight with another lady who hadn't flown one before. Then she got driven up to Fern to pick up a spit but that was ok because she had flown one of them before. All with the grand total of 120 hours flying.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by mad_jock

Just reminded me of talking to the old girl next door.

She was sent down to leeds to pick up a Lancaster bomber for delivery up to Inverness all she had was hand written pilot notes on the train to read for her first flight with another lady who hadn't flown one before. Then she got driven up to Fern to pick up a spit but that was ok because she had flown one of them before. All with the grand total of 120 hours flying.

Ann Welch once told me that it was perfectly normal to turn up not knowing what you were going to fly, read how to get in and start whilst being driven to the aircraft, read how to take-off whilst warming up, and read how to land whilst in the cruise.

Amazing women (and a few men we shouldn't forget) the ATA, but not that many of them made it to the end of the war.

You can buy a set of those notes still, referred to as the "ATA Blue Book" from the Yorkshire Air Museum - I have a set, and they were £20 well spent just for the sheer fascination of it.

G

[thing]

What else do you do after you've bounced twice and are heading rapidly towards the edge of the runway?

I'm not sure I'm understanding you. Personally I would select ful power, flaps 10 and climb out at 54. I'm pretty sure though you're going to come back and tell me that it's wrong to do that.

[Mach Jump]

We don't all that happens with instructors gold plating is that it drives punters away from flying and schools.

It's not 'gold plating'. The whole point of 'conversion training' is to demonstrate the significant differences between the new aircraft and what the pilot is used to. After the benign nature of the PA28 in the stall The rather abrupt wing drop that the 152 often produces will be quite an eye opener.

but not that many of them made it to the end of the war.

The problem with wartime is we only hear the experiences of the survivors.

What else do you do after you've bounced twice and are heading rapidly towards the edge of the runway?

Wombat. Don't encourage him/her. I think we already established that Thing is deliberately misunderstanding the term 'full flap go around' just to keep the pxssxng contest going.


MJ

[thing]

I think we already established that Thing is deliberately misunderstanding the term 'full flap go around' just to keep the pxssxng contest going.

I'm not (although you're right to be suspicious...). No one yet has answered my question. Why on earth would you do a go round with full flap? I'm not that long out of PPL training and I can assure you that it was hammered home to get the flap up as well as applying full power. How much flap you take off being dependent of what you are flying. Can anyone just answer the question instead of beating around the bush?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Full flap approach, need to go around.

(1) Full power.

(2) Retract flaps in stages.

Therefore a go-around is typically initiated with full flaps, although it you've still got full flaps by 500ft, you may be missing something.

G

[Pace]

Also remember that I most aircraft full flap is mostly drag while Lower stages of flap lift! There is little harm in reducing flap from full to a lower number especially as you will reduce AOA to compensate for the less drag

Pace

[foxmoth]

30 minutes in the cct should do it. Any more than that and I would suspect they are taking the p*** out of your wallet

Lots of guys with plenty of experience saying this, I have flown with pilots who are fine with this, I have also flown with others who should be looking at this sort of time for a checkout but need WAY more, and that can be on an aircraft they have flown before. Personally, I would expect anyone with low hours doing a checkout on joining a new school to take an hour to satisfy that they are competent, but a conversion from Piper to Cessna or visa versa should be possible without anything much extra.
The ATA girls did a great job, but the circumstances were a little more exceptional, and if they DID bend one I suspect it would have been more acceptable than a low hour PPL bending a club machine.

[dubbleyew eight]

I cannot believe that "converting from a piper to a cessna" is even a topic for discussion.

bye the bye on my licence test flight the examiner required me to do a takeoff in the cessna with full flap.
I argued with him for half a runway but eventually he persuaded me.
all that happens is that you need to push a lot of nose down elevator to counter the centre of pressure movement.

you can actually takeoff with 40 degrees of flap.

[Desert185]

I think its a good idea to give a student or transitioning pilot a go around without being able to retract flaps. A failure of some sort or a popped CB that won't reset will make that a scenario that is best to have some previous experience rather than being a first time for a low time pilot. Of course, a mechanical flap handle might preclude that exercise...

Regarding flaps and performance, we had a few 182's in one particular organization. One had flap gap seals, and the rest didn't. Doing a no flap approach with the flap gap seal equipped airplane and comparing it's much flatter glide ratio to the others was a productive exercise.

[Pace]

I think its a good idea to give a student or transitioning pilot a go around without being able to retract flaps.

We are not talking about a PPL transitioning from a 150 to a retractable complex single we are talking about jumping from one simple single to another!
You would think we were talking about students
Any PPL should be perfectly capable of flying to 3000 feet and checking out the behaviour differences with full flap or part flap on their own.

So you really need an instructor to change from a PA28 to a C150? i think not. These are PPLs not students!

Really stinks of flying clubs out to make money

Pace

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I'm not sure I'm understanding you. Personally I would select ful power, flaps 10 and climb out at 54. I'm pretty sure though you're going to come back and tell me that it's wrong to do that.

Full power first, check that the aircraft is pointing in a sane direction and is still flying second, then flaps (to 20 in my case) as the third action. So for a second or three I am going around at full power - there's no way I'm going to faff around with the flaps before I've got the power on.

Instructor didn't complain when I did exactly that on a currency check ride the other day.