VFR...VFR...Oops..*gulp* Hello IFR... Literally Out of the 'Blue' (Sky pun intended)
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I agree about the Scud running. I remember a flight around Cornwall at 500 AGL....BUT when it got, too dangerous (lowering base, murky vis, antenna up to 2000 somewhere ahead), I climbed to 4500 and went home IFR. I was only doing it to see if I could. I felt much more relaxed at 4500 in the cloud but not going to hit anything! (PS this was pre-Skydemon and no moving map GPS).
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Scud running is not something to be taken lightly and certainly not to be taken lightly without solid IMC capable pilot and aircraft!
i remember only too well flying a twin to Inverness and landing there after finding a gap in a line of storm clouds crossing west to East.
I landed with hailstones the size of golfballs on the runway.
knowing from sat pictures that the weather finished to the west at the end of Loch Ness I elected to fly down the lake low level and then route down the islands in clear weather.
Halfway down Loch Ness I was forced down to 200 feet above the lake and scud cloud appeared below the aircraft. I held a heading over the lake and climbed into IMC to the MSA bursting out into the clear some 25-30 NM further on.
Scud running is a risky occupation at best! Without solid instrument capability its high risk!
Pace
i remember only too well flying a twin to Inverness and landing there after finding a gap in a line of storm clouds crossing west to East.
I landed with hailstones the size of golfballs on the runway.
knowing from sat pictures that the weather finished to the west at the end of Loch Ness I elected to fly down the lake low level and then route down the islands in clear weather.
Halfway down Loch Ness I was forced down to 200 feet above the lake and scud cloud appeared below the aircraft. I held a heading over the lake and climbed into IMC to the MSA bursting out into the clear some 25-30 NM further on.
Scud running is a risky occupation at best! Without solid instrument capability its high risk!
Pace
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EM,
Are you saying that it was not NOTAM'd as active but a NOTAM came alive when you were already in the air? If so I think (given the following events) that it was unlucky that you had mobile internet at that point to give you that update. I also want to put to you in case you hadn't thought of it before, if you had have departed after seeing no NOTAMs to affect, and had not have had Skydemon (or alternative) with you, what would have happened differently?
Are you saying that it was not NOTAM'd as active but a NOTAM came alive when you were already in the air? If so I think (given the following events) that it was unlucky that you had mobile internet at that point to give you that update. I also want to put to you in case you hadn't thought of it before, if you had have departed after seeing no NOTAMs to affect, and had not have had Skydemon (or alternative) with you, what would have happened differently?
I finally saw a hole to my 11 O'clock & a beam of light resonated through th eopening right onto us... I swear to this day I think of it as God poking a finger through the cloud just to offer us some holy divine assistance. Informed London Control I saw an opening , they advised to go for it & so I DID at the need of speed!!!
Aviate, navigate, communicate.
Well done.
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I am not a big believer in Unexpected IMC. In my 14 years of flying, I have never had an unintentional "VFR into IMC" experience
Scud running is not something to be taken lightly and certainly not to be taken lightly without solid IMC capable pilot and aircraft!
Are you saying that it was not NOTAM'd as active but a NOTAM came alive when you were already in the air?
what would have happened differently?
what would have happened differently?
AIAA are not the kind of area that are activated and deactivated by NOTAM. What exactly did the NOTAM say? Is it still there?
I also want to apologise for referencing the wrong month in which this incident occured. Just had a look at my logbook last night & the actual specific date was 18th August 2013 as opposed to September 2013 (made a point of editing OP to reflect the right month). My memory is hazy so don't quote me on this but I think the NOTAM advised of some air exercises being conducted by the military in that area & a certain levels of altitude was cordoned off. In fact now that I have the date, is there any website where I'll be able to pull up historical NOTAM info archived, in order to find out just what exactly was going on that day? FWIW I departed at 10:50 local time that day & returned for 12:25pm.
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As to scud running and a discussion between more experienced pilots I dont believe it is necessarily dangerous any more than some other aspects of aviation. Like so many things it requires a good understanding of the weather, the terrain, and your limits. I do agree it is important to have an escape and instrument capability is a very good escape.
I find it interesting how often scud behaves as you would expect - you can predict with a very high degree of confidence where the terrain and cloud base will close up, you can predict the direction from which the weather will close in and, more importantly, the direction from which it will open up, you can predict what is likely to come out of the scud so avoiding those golf ball hail storms but you can only do so by being very familiar with the topography and the weather on the day. There is no substitute for a careful self brief. the consequence of that self brief maybe that there is an unpredictable element (what might fall from the cloud base for example) and that in itself might be enough to change to plan B.
We tend to think of scud running as being risky, dangerous, to be avoided at all cost - but one man's scud is another man's good overcast. I recall thinking twice about even departing with a solid overcast of less than 2,000 feet.
So it is a skill, a skill to be honed, to be kept current, at times a very useful skill and lest we forget a technique that many pilot's have used very safely for a very long time perhaps because whatever their capabilities they chose to fly an aircraft with no instrument capability.
Use the skill unwisely and just like the unskilled aerobatic pilot it is quite capable of ruining your day.
I find it interesting how often scud behaves as you would expect - you can predict with a very high degree of confidence where the terrain and cloud base will close up, you can predict the direction from which the weather will close in and, more importantly, the direction from which it will open up, you can predict what is likely to come out of the scud so avoiding those golf ball hail storms but you can only do so by being very familiar with the topography and the weather on the day. There is no substitute for a careful self brief. the consequence of that self brief maybe that there is an unpredictable element (what might fall from the cloud base for example) and that in itself might be enough to change to plan B.
We tend to think of scud running as being risky, dangerous, to be avoided at all cost - but one man's scud is another man's good overcast. I recall thinking twice about even departing with a solid overcast of less than 2,000 feet.
So it is a skill, a skill to be honed, to be kept current, at times a very useful skill and lest we forget a technique that many pilot's have used very safely for a very long time perhaps because whatever their capabilities they chose to fly an aircraft with no instrument capability.
Use the skill unwisely and just like the unskilled aerobatic pilot it is quite capable of ruining your day.
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Fuji
For me scud running is when an attempt is made to fly VFR in minimal VFR conditions which would preclude the 2000 foot cloud base
unless you were flying the Alps!
as with any flying it is important to always have an out which could be a 180 back to where you have come from not so clever if there is terrain low cloud an d poor visibility as part of the cocktail!
the other most obvious out is to chuck it away and climb to a safe altitude! in a straight line if you are very sure of what lies ahead or a spiral climb if in doubt!
that itself holds hazards as if you are spiralling in 50 kt winds the chances are you maybe carried where you do not want to be.
so a good wind awareness is important either spiralling or in a straight line especially when you are in IMC below the MSA.
it is vitally important to have good spatial awareness and to be sure where you are.
I have had approved departures which include spiral climbs to 10K before setting course in high terrain airports so not such a big deal if they are contained
Pace
For me scud running is when an attempt is made to fly VFR in minimal VFR conditions which would preclude the 2000 foot cloud base
unless you were flying the Alps!as with any flying it is important to always have an out which could be a 180 back to where you have come from not so clever if there is terrain low cloud an d poor visibility as part of the cocktail!
the other most obvious out is to chuck it away and climb to a safe altitude! in a straight line if you are very sure of what lies ahead or a spiral climb if in doubt!
that itself holds hazards as if you are spiralling in 50 kt winds the chances are you maybe carried where you do not want to be.
so a good wind awareness is important either spiralling or in a straight line especially when you are in IMC below the MSA.
it is vitally important to have good spatial awareness and to be sure where you are.
I have had approved departures which include spiral climbs to 10K before setting course in high terrain airports so not such a big deal if they are contained
Pace
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Is there not a third “out” in some circumstances – land below if there is somewhere landable?
(In a glider, I would have to, if forced down by lowering clouds, no lift, and terrain too high to get over.) I appreciate that this is very much less desirable in power than 1 or 2 above, if either of those is viable. But may be better to try than dying.
Chris N
(In a glider, I would have to, if forced down by lowering clouds, no lift, and terrain too high to get over.) I appreciate that this is very much less desirable in power than 1 or 2 above, if either of those is viable. But may be better to try than dying.
Chris N
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For me scud running is when an attempt is made to fly VFR in minimal VFR conditions which would preclude the 2000 foot cloud base 
unless you were flying the Alps!
unless you were flying the Alps!
My previous point exactly - one man's scud running is not another mans.
Where do you draw the line? Are you happy with 1,000 feet between base and terrain, 500 feet, I know you get the picture. That is the problem with these generilsations, what you or I think of as scud running might be very different from another pilots. Even the aircraft might be a factor. Scud running at 200 knots is one skill set, different and more challenging than at 80 knots.
Short of fog it is surprising what conditions you might enjoy a scud run along coastal beaches.
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funfly wrote:
I suppose that if you had just rolled out halfway through the 360, things might have got a lot better for you..........
1. Got into a whiteout very very quickly.
2. Did a 360 level turn.
3. Came out of white out to realise that the turn was anything but 360 and level, glimpses of cows in fields, pulse rate on the high side.
4. Scurried back to where I had come from.
5. Started the IMC training straight away.
2. Did a 360 level turn.
3. Came out of white out to realise that the turn was anything but 360 and level, glimpses of cows in fields, pulse rate on the high side.
4. Scurried back to where I had come from.
5. Started the IMC training straight away.
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It seems to me that the root cause of the original poster's situation was twofold.
1) Not doing a proper NOTAM briefing before departure - I suspect the flight time was not set in SkyDemon.
2) Overreacting to an informational NOTAM. It's unlikely that this was actually restricted airspace - it was probably just warning of intense activity. That being the case, just keeping a good lookout would have been preferable to entering IMC!
1) Not doing a proper NOTAM briefing before departure - I suspect the flight time was not set in SkyDemon.
2) Overreacting to an informational NOTAM. It's unlikely that this was actually restricted airspace - it was probably just warning of intense activity. That being the case, just keeping a good lookout would have been preferable to entering IMC!
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"Halfway down Loch Ness I was forced down to 200 feet above the lake and scud cloud appeared below the aircraft. I held a heading over the lake and climbed into IMC to the MSA bursting out into the clear some 25-30 NM further on."
I went from one end of loch ness to the other last winter and went thru what seemed liked 3 different weather systems in a few hours, I thought to myself it's bad enough being here today in my boat doing 25 knots flying down here would be terrifying
I went from one end of loch ness to the other last winter and went thru what seemed liked 3 different weather systems in a few hours, I thought to myself it's bad enough being here today in my boat doing 25 knots flying down here would be terrifying
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Greetings Fellow Lift Junkies.....Hope all is well & boy does time fly fast & Straight and Level mind you 
Due to high bouts of nostalgia (& recent euphoria) I just had to bump this gem of an experience & once again, I THANK all you guys for offering your suggestions & advise as to how the situation could have been better remedied. Hopefully new budding PPL'ers will be reading this & taking notes
So I have been on a social hiatus due to various personal/professional developments in my life, but I'd just like to update everyone in here that I've come a very long way from making this (CPL/IR ascertained late 2014) mistake as a juvenile PPL'er & from time to time I still candidly tend to stare at this entry in my logbook with a wry smile on my face.
I was all set, gearing up to commence my FI rating this year, seeing as ALL my attempts at trying to secure a RHS somewhere had been proving futile since October last year. That is until I saw an email from the CAE nestled in my inbox requesting my CV for FR to review. Fast forward the tape & I was very very lucky (i emphasise luck because some people wait years for this chance to prove their self worth) to be have been invited by FR & passed my assessment in Dublin & have recently received news that I'm set to commence TR come April/May. I don't know if this was divine intervention/ lady luck taking a liking or god merely getting around to answering my emails, but yes 8 years of disciplined saving & 3 years of Modular blood,sweat tears are finally about to be avenged accordingly. I cannot explain the type of feeling that once experiences when that email confirming my TR date set everything in stone....Childhood career dream finally coming to fruition....here is to bigger better things in 2015 (Happy belated NY)
To all you hopefuls and dreamers out there best of luck to on your aviation endeavours
Due to high bouts of nostalgia (& recent euphoria) I just had to bump this gem of an experience & once again, I THANK all you guys for offering your suggestions & advise as to how the situation could have been better remedied. Hopefully new budding PPL'ers will be reading this & taking notes
So I have been on a social hiatus due to various personal/professional developments in my life, but I'd just like to update everyone in here that I've come a very long way from making this (CPL/IR ascertained late 2014) mistake as a juvenile PPL'er & from time to time I still candidly tend to stare at this entry in my logbook with a wry smile on my face.I was all set, gearing up to commence my FI rating this year, seeing as ALL my attempts at trying to secure a RHS somewhere had been proving futile since October last year. That is until I saw an email from the CAE nestled in my inbox requesting my CV for FR to review. Fast forward the tape & I was very very lucky (i emphasise luck because some people wait years for this chance to prove their self worth) to be have been invited by FR & passed my assessment in Dublin & have recently received news that I'm set to commence TR come April/May. I don't know if this was divine intervention/ lady luck taking a liking or god merely getting around to answering my emails, but yes 8 years of disciplined saving & 3 years of Modular blood,sweat tears are finally about to be avenged accordingly. I cannot explain the type of feeling that once experiences when that email confirming my TR date set everything in stone....Childhood career dream finally coming to fruition....here is to bigger better things in 2015 (Happy belated NY)
To all you hopefuls and dreamers out there best of luck to on your aviation endeavours
Last edited by Exiled Martian; 27th Jan 2015 at 09:11.
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Weather over the mountains is often completely different to the flatlands, especially downwind. You were also flying far enough for it to change considerably - to fly into completely different air masses.
Also some mountain wave is possible even if it wasn't on the met office briefing charts.
Also some mountain wave is possible even if it wasn't on the met office briefing charts.
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A nice discussion ... I remember when taking my PPL lessons, there was a chunk of hours dedicated to IMC exercise, I believe it was min 3 typ 5 hours - cant remember wether this was regulation or school specific. But, it was a great thing to deal with this already in training and when we did our first cloud breaking at OVC006 in traffic pattern ... omg.
I had two times in my flying career up to today, where similar happened. First was an unexpected weather change leaving me in the middle of nowhere with almost no sight. Second was a flight in spread 1 weather, where a slight sunlight variation brought me into clouds on downwind at 900ft - no runway to see, but me on the radio saying "yes, I do have field in sight" (actually having vis almost zero) - wouldnt do that today, but found myself be trained well enough to not fear the situation.
I had two times in my flying career up to today, where similar happened. First was an unexpected weather change leaving me in the middle of nowhere with almost no sight. Second was a flight in spread 1 weather, where a slight sunlight variation brought me into clouds on downwind at 900ft - no runway to see, but me on the radio saying "yes, I do have field in sight" (actually having vis almost zero) - wouldnt do that today, but found myself be trained well enough to not fear the situation.
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I can't resist chiming in here and saying well done to the OP on getting a job, and to Englishal(if you still hang out here), you're dead right about 'inadvertent' flight into IMC.
I don't hold an IR and I have flown into IMC several times. Each time it was my decision and not an accident. Of course the decision to do so was questionable, but I think hardly anybody accidentally flies into cloud. I don't think I'm alone in consciously taking a decision to temporarily expose myself to much greater risk.
I also scud run, and have flown gliders in cloud. I'm very conscious of the elevated risk profile and only take those extra risks when solo.
I don't hold an IR and I have flown into IMC several times. Each time it was my decision and not an accident. Of course the decision to do so was questionable, but I think hardly anybody accidentally flies into cloud. I don't think I'm alone in consciously taking a decision to temporarily expose myself to much greater risk.
I also scud run, and have flown gliders in cloud. I'm very conscious of the elevated risk profile and only take those extra risks when solo.
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I stopped scud running when flying in Northern Europe after they built all that crazy windmills, it is not fun to scud at 500ft when windcraft blades are going up to 700-800ft ...
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A good long read through the GA AAIB reports for the last thirty years will give you an insight into some of the perils of scud running. There's plenty of bent aeroplanes, pilots and passengers written up in there.
I wouldn't mind betting that if some of those pilots were able to communicate by any means other than a Ouija board they would loudly voice the opinion that scud running is really rather daft.
A few years ago I heard a pilot in trouble on her QXC. She was in cloud and scared stiff. What followed was a master class in controlling by East Midlands approach. She very sensibly called for help as things went wrong and landed (beautifully) to applause from the 12 jets all waiting at the hold to go. As someone said earlier, when the weather goes wrong controlled airspace is the least of your worries, and no controller or pilot should really have to listen to the last panicking radio calls of a pilot knowing they are about to die. (I have, and I never want to again)
If you think its' all going wrong it probably already has. Get help early, don't be frightened to tell someone you need that help. If you have a second radio keep it tuned to 121.5, there are people on the end of that frequency with remarkable equipment and abilities, but they do like you to call as early into your problem as you can.
Some of us on this forum have just got licenses, some hold ATPLs with thousands of commercial and GA hours, I've got just over 15 000 hours, a fairly well defined sense of self preservation, and enough knowledge to know that if I feel I'm working hard then something, somewhere is wrong. That sixth sense comes with age and experience, but if a little voice is saying "something ain't right here chief" listen to it and get out of where you are. That voice doesn't tend to lie.
SND
I wouldn't mind betting that if some of those pilots were able to communicate by any means other than a Ouija board they would loudly voice the opinion that scud running is really rather daft.
A few years ago I heard a pilot in trouble on her QXC. She was in cloud and scared stiff. What followed was a master class in controlling by East Midlands approach. She very sensibly called for help as things went wrong and landed (beautifully) to applause from the 12 jets all waiting at the hold to go. As someone said earlier, when the weather goes wrong controlled airspace is the least of your worries, and no controller or pilot should really have to listen to the last panicking radio calls of a pilot knowing they are about to die. (I have, and I never want to again)
If you think its' all going wrong it probably already has. Get help early, don't be frightened to tell someone you need that help. If you have a second radio keep it tuned to 121.5, there are people on the end of that frequency with remarkable equipment and abilities, but they do like you to call as early into your problem as you can.
Some of us on this forum have just got licenses, some hold ATPLs with thousands of commercial and GA hours, I've got just over 15 000 hours, a fairly well defined sense of self preservation, and enough knowledge to know that if I feel I'm working hard then something, somewhere is wrong. That sixth sense comes with age and experience, but if a little voice is saying "something ain't right here chief" listen to it and get out of where you are. That voice doesn't tend to lie.
SND
