"Light Twin" fatal at Hawarden
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Cessna 310Q Wales crash
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There is no doubt that an engine failure at takeoff in a twin is a high risk scenario. But in every other scenario an engine loss is pretty close to a non event. That the accident statistics are similar between singles and twins ignores the huge elephant in the room: that any time an engine fails in a twin it most likely makes it back onto the ground safely and doesn't end up in any statistics. Which is not the case with a single. So the numbers are hugely misleading.
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There is no doubt that an engine failure at takeoff in a twin is a high risk scenario. But in every other scenario an engine loss is pretty close to a non event.
- When you're hot and high, and maybe heavy too so that it won't maintain altitude even at Vyse clean with full power on the live engine.
- In icing conditions when you might have other calls on the power from the live engine.
- Any time you need to go around
- In locations with challenging terrain where the climb gradient (especially missed approach climb gradient) is critical.
- In some older types that don't have duplicated systems (e.g hydraulic pumps) on each engine.
I could go on before we even get started about the failure mode…….
An engine failure can be benign, but it can be a very serious event in a variety of stages of flight in any type.
Talking as someone who has tried Gliders, Singles, Multis, Turboprops, 2 Engine Jets, 3 Engine jets, piston and turbine helicopters, 2 engine turbine helicopters; And someone who has taught people to fly various equipment I can attest that flying a light Multi-Engine piston is some of the most challenging flying going.
Talking as someone who once flew with the deceased (in a plane and a heli) I can also attest that he was extremely competent and a gentleman whom would have hired on a few occasions had he had a commercial license and been in the market. Bloody hell I wish he had been.
I think some conjecture and discussion in these hellish situations is healthy; I find that on recurrent courses at Flightsafety, CAE, Simcom etc; Groundschool often reverts to 'war stories' and I also recognize that sharing experiences is a good thing that probably saves as many lives as the rest of the training experience.
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not accusing anyone of being insensitive, calling anyone retarded or playing some nasty schoolmaster shouting anyone down: But if anyone thinks something that qualifies as an Emergency or even Abnormal procedure is mostly insignificant, or don't fully understand the relationship between the critical speeds for the type or class you're flying PLEASE PLEASE go back to school for the aircraft and change the school if you have to.
I was a young man when I first had to see a dead person in an aircraft and have too many friends either seriously injured or who went for a flight and never came home. In many cases there's been others similarly involved, and in some a very experienced and professional pilot lost their life in a perfectly serviceable piece of equipment. There are others out there that I am totally astounded keep getting away with it who won't listen and neither will anyone else.
Be safe out there people
Goodnight.
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More likely we'd suspect aileron jammed or flap extension (you'd drop the flaps/gear in this turn) asymmetry - no time to react to that.
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Thats aircraft dependent if the flaps are on a common shaft which most are there is zero chance they are going to be asymmetry problems.
And one main gear not going down doesn't give much problems.
Most if not all heavy hardware have no restrictions deploying flap or gear in the turn. And its done many thousands of times per day.
If you already had a engine gone most will configure while wings level mainly to make life easier with trim and power changes but not because of asymmetry issues.
And one main gear not going down doesn't give much problems.
Most if not all heavy hardware have no restrictions deploying flap or gear in the turn. And its done many thousands of times per day.
If you already had a engine gone most will configure while wings level mainly to make life easier with trim and power changes but not because of asymmetry issues.
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Most if not all heavy hardware have no restrictions deploying flap or gear in the turn. And its done many thousands of times per day.
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Light aircraft there is even less reason to worry about it as they 99% have flaps on a single shaft with a single actuator be it electrical or mechanical.
Its only when the flaps are split away from each other that you need to be carefull.
Gear usually travels independently so you get one gear then the next and then the final one. Its very rare that they deploy symmetrically anyway.
The no flaps in the turn is an old wives tale to enforce an instructors personal preference. A lot of the time because they personally struggle while doing it maintaining the flight profile.
Its only when the flaps are split away from each other that you need to be carefull.
Gear usually travels independently so you get one gear then the next and then the final one. Its very rare that they deploy symmetrically anyway.
The no flaps in the turn is an old wives tale to enforce an instructors personal preference. A lot of the time because they personally struggle while doing it maintaining the flight profile.
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Originally Posted by Whopity
The pictures suggest this is a classic stall spin event not an engine failure!
Until we get more information (which could be a while) we can't even rule-out the possibility he was carrying a starboard engine failure for a while, had trimmed the rudder port to compensate, and only when he reduced power to land did this cause control difficulties.
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Light aircraft there is even less reason to worry about it as they 99% have flaps on a single shaft with a single actuator be it electrical or mechanical.
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Exactly which is why I said 99%.
Most common training types its a solid bar which actuates them both at the same time.
And there is zero problem using them in the turn.
I say again
The enforcing the no flaps in a turn in a common training type is just an indication of a talent limited instructor forcing their own personal belief down peoples throats. Usually the trying to retrain the pilot away from it screws up their normal circuit and causes way way more issues confusing them than the none issue which is deploying flaps in the turn.
Most common training types its a solid bar which actuates them both at the same time.
And there is zero problem using them in the turn.
I say again
The no flaps in the turn is an old wives tale to enforce an instructors personal preference. A lot of the time because they personally struggle while doing it maintaining the flight profile.
Flaps in the turn.....
I'm an FI. If someone with a PPL drops flaps in the turn, I don't have a problem with that. When I'm training someone, I teach to drop first stage flaps, set power as required, trim, one thing at a time, then turn base leg. If they are low, I don't have a problem with them waiting until they are on final. I don't like flaps in the turn because most students can't do three things at once, and anyway trimming during the turn, which is a transient manouvre, will give you an incorrect trim once you are no longer turning.
The possibility of assymetric flap exists, but it isn't my prime reason for not liking students dropping flaps in a turn.
I'm an FI. If someone with a PPL drops flaps in the turn, I don't have a problem with that. When I'm training someone, I teach to drop first stage flaps, set power as required, trim, one thing at a time, then turn base leg. If they are low, I don't have a problem with them waiting until they are on final. I don't like flaps in the turn because most students can't do three things at once, and anyway trimming during the turn, which is a transient manouvre, will give you an incorrect trim once you are no longer turning.
The possibility of assymetric flap exists, but it isn't my prime reason for not liking students dropping flaps in a turn.
Last edited by Piper.Classique; 18th Nov 2013 at 19:03. Reason: Missed out a word
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M_J, being in the same time zone, we are prob90 both having a wee dram right now - call it a truce ? 
My argument is not about the - shock, horror! - failure of flaps deploying asymmetrically on a regular basis. It is about removing one more hole from the cheese. Risk mitigation in management consultant
speak
My argument is not about the - shock, horror! - failure of flaps deploying asymmetrically on a regular basis. It is about removing one more hole from the cheese. Risk mitigation in management consultant
speak
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The no flaps in the turn is an old wives tale to enforce an instructors personal preference. A lot of the time because they personally struggle while doing it maintaining the flight profile.
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No actually I was just out the door to fly 6 sectors everyone of which I put the flaps down in the turn. Infact 3 of them I did it twice once turning base and once turning finals.
Better write to the daily mail 120 pax in near death experience.
Its not a hole. Its a personal opinion for a personal preference. With no related science or statistics to back it up.
Go and find one accident report of asymmetric flap deployment which still involves both wings being attached in GA. Then we can discuss if its a hole in a bit of cheese or not.
piper its not anything special its FI's that don't have a clue what they are talking about and mostly don't have the handling skills themselves to deal with the trim change in the turn. There is a full range of bollocks excuses why you shouldn't do it. None of which carry any great weight.
If they just said sorry but I prefer if you deploy flaps with wings level because I am a bit pants at handling and can't do it myself I would have more respect for them.
Better write to the daily mail 120 pax in near death experience.
Its not a hole. Its a personal opinion for a personal preference. With no related science or statistics to back it up.
Go and find one accident report of asymmetric flap deployment which still involves both wings being attached in GA. Then we can discuss if its a hole in a bit of cheese or not.
piper its not anything special its FI's that don't have a clue what they are talking about and mostly don't have the handling skills themselves to deal with the trim change in the turn. There is a full range of bollocks excuses why you shouldn't do it. None of which carry any great weight.
If they just said sorry but I prefer if you deploy flaps with wings level because I am a bit pants at handling and can't do it myself I would have more respect for them.
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Originally Posted by mad_jock
Go and find one accident report of asymmetric flap deployment which still involves both wings being attached in GA. Then we can discuss if its a hole in a bit of cheese or not.
Asymmetric flap
Both wings attached
C310
Summary from that report below:
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1975 in a twin 310 turn onto final in an aircraft built in 1957.
And the outside flap went which rolled him wings level and through the opposite way and then he crashed.
And no mention at all of deploying the flaps in the turn.
Realistically you won't deploy the final stages of flap in a twin until you commit to the runway so I doubt very much they were travelling.
I will give you, it fits the bill which I described. But realistically if that's what you hanging your hat on its pretty poor.
Just for your information the more modern cessna's since about 1965 have a single actuator onto a drive bar.
I would definitely put a 1957 C310 into the 1% bracket.
And the outside flap went which rolled him wings level and through the opposite way and then he crashed.
And no mention at all of deploying the flaps in the turn.
Realistically you won't deploy the final stages of flap in a twin until you commit to the runway so I doubt very much they were travelling.
I will give you, it fits the bill which I described. But realistically if that's what you hanging your hat on its pretty poor.
Just for your information the more modern cessna's since about 1965 have a single actuator onto a drive bar.
I would definitely put a 1957 C310 into the 1% bracket.
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I will don't worry, and I don't need to be a sky god.
I just need to understand engineering and cause and effect. As you example shows the outside flap went and gave the guy the most favourable longest time to recover and he still went in.
Maybe you shouldn't use flaps at all just in case.
piper I wouldn't think twice about it. But I am sure some will have a theory that you are risking life and limb of a stall and spin in. And its down right dangerous and even reckless to be even thinking about being able to handle the aircraft in such an exposed situation.
You might have to move the controls in a coordinated manner to keep the right attitude. Or god forbid take your hand off the throttle.
I just need to understand engineering and cause and effect. As you example shows the outside flap went and gave the guy the most favourable longest time to recover and he still went in.
Maybe you shouldn't use flaps at all just in case.
piper I wouldn't think twice about it. But I am sure some will have a theory that you are risking life and limb of a stall and spin in. And its down right dangerous and even reckless to be even thinking about being able to handle the aircraft in such an exposed situation.
You might have to move the controls in a coordinated manner to keep the right attitude. Or god forbid take your hand off the throttle.
Last edited by mad_jock; 18th Nov 2013 at 20:13.