"Light Twin" fatal at Hawarden
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This what you guys are talking about?
GMA News: YouScooper captures chilling video of Parañaque plane crash (December 10, 2011) - YouTube
GMA News: YouScooper captures chilling video of Parañaque plane crash (December 10, 2011) - YouTube
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Looking at that video found this horrendous video with some terrible crashes the message keep it flying comes to mind.
Some well flown crashes too
????????? #1 - YouTube
Some well flown crashes too
????????? #1 - YouTube
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MJ,
You tone bores me now. This is how I became an atheist. When I realized the Skygod was talking rubbish.
Seems you know SO much more than I do, even about me.
From the 'nothing' I do know, I can however inform anyone who will accept/understand the information (obviousy that's not you MJ), I tried accelerating from below Vmca on one engine in an ATR and it just resulted in a flat turn as the aileron still had authority after the rudder reached full deflection. As we approached Vmca the heading steadied and less rudder was required as the aircraft accelerated.
You tone bores me now. This is how I became an atheist. When I realized the Skygod was talking rubbish.
Seems you know SO much more than I do, even about me.
From the 'nothing' I do know, I can however inform anyone who will accept/understand the information (obviousy that's not you MJ), I tried accelerating from below Vmca on one engine in an ATR and it just resulted in a flat turn as the aileron still had authority after the rudder reached full deflection. As we approached Vmca the heading steadied and less rudder was required as the aircraft accelerated.
Last edited by Miserlou; 30th Nov 2013 at 22:25.
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Yep its a common occurance for pilots to be issued an ATPL get put in the LHS and get put in a training role when they struggle handling an aircraft.
Go get a copy of that swatton book and learn what your playing with.
Then maybe you won`t end up like that twin did turning downwind in the video.
I presume you have run out of any technical arguments as you have gone down the personal insult style of debate.
Go get a copy of that swatton book and learn what your playing with.
Then maybe you won`t end up like that twin did turning downwind in the video.
I presume you have run out of any technical arguments as you have gone down the personal insult style of debate.
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This is not directed at anyone but just a fact of life in internet forums.
It is a fact of life that face to face we would 99% of the time be respectful to each other courteous and understanding.
Stick a bunch of all good pilots but slightly different in a forum (Maybe it the no face text thing ) and it ends up as a Willy waving exercise With a bunch of Egos all trying to prove they are better or more knowledgeable than the others.
Yes! mistakes should be corrected for the benefit of others and sadly we all make mistakes but there are respectful and diplomatic ways of doing that and Willy waving ways of doing that
Oh well
Pace
It is a fact of life that face to face we would 99% of the time be respectful to each other courteous and understanding.
Stick a bunch of all good pilots but slightly different in a forum (Maybe it the no face text thing ) and it ends up as a Willy waving exercise With a bunch of Egos all trying to prove they are better or more knowledgeable than the others.
Yes! mistakes should be corrected for the benefit of others and sadly we all make mistakes but there are respectful and diplomatic ways of doing that and Willy waving ways of doing that
Oh well
Pace
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I cannot see what all the fuss is about. Directly and indirectly you are all right!
I think everyone here has acknowledged that a twin will bite if you are behind the game. I, for one, hands up, was behind the game when I was least expecting an engine to go on the climb out from Pietermaritzburg (Oribi)
in a Cessna 414. Fortunately, I had some height, but I very nearly put that
on its back.
....and when it happens, she will go as fast as mad_jock
explains.
Whether we call it "firewalling" the live throttle OR advancing the throttle to max power is neither here nor there, it's the same thing.
Personally, I wouldn't advocate use much more than 5 degrees of bank either way with an engine out. Yes, you can apply more, but strictly speaking you are in unknown territory, and will not find anything to substantiate this in the POH.
I have many hours on the aircraft type in this dreadful tragedy. She has a reasonably good single engine climb performance, but she is a slippery ship.
Safe flying all.
I think everyone here has acknowledged that a twin will bite if you are behind the game. I, for one, hands up, was behind the game when I was least expecting an engine to go on the climb out from Pietermaritzburg (Oribi)
in a Cessna 414. Fortunately, I had some height, but I very nearly put that
on its back.
....and when it happens, she will go as fast as mad_jockexplains.
Whether we call it "firewalling" the live throttle OR advancing the throttle to max power is neither here nor there, it's the same thing.
Personally, I wouldn't advocate use much more than 5 degrees of bank either way with an engine out. Yes, you can apply more, but strictly speaking you are in unknown territory, and will not find anything to substantiate this in the POH.
I have many hours on the aircraft type in this dreadful tragedy. She has a reasonably good single engine climb performance, but she is a slippery ship.
Safe flying all.
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Quote,
"Yep its a common occurance for pilots to be issued an ATPL get put in the LHS and get put in a training role when they struggle handling an aircraft."
Oh yes. Seen so many times. And they get promoted to management too.
By the way, nasty crash in the video. I have not read the report but it just looks like a spin accident to me. Watch the rudder. Starts centered goes to full right as the wing drops.
"Yep its a common occurance for pilots to be issued an ATPL get put in the LHS and get put in a training role when they struggle handling an aircraft."
Oh yes. Seen so many times. And they get promoted to management too.
By the way, nasty crash in the video. I have not read the report but it just looks like a spin accident to me. Watch the rudder. Starts centered goes to full right as the wing drops.
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MJ
I presume you have run out of any technical arguments as you have gone down the personal insult style of debate.
I presume you have run out of any technical arguments as you have gone down the personal insult style of debate.
Pace
But with your skils and experience you know that.
Please feel free to go through my posts and pick out mistakes! I am sure you will find one somewhere as yes I have a lot of experience flying in **** but have been lucky but like most of us other than the Sky Gods make a small error now and again even in these forums.
But with your skils and experience you know that.
Please feel free to go through my posts and pick out mistakes! I am sure you will find one somewhere as yes I have a lot of experience flying in **** but have been lucky but like most of us other than the Sky Gods make a small error now and again even in these forums.
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My last post on this (I know I said that before) because pissing contests are not my thing. Exception being if someone questions my maths below!
I did some maths homework to see where our theoretical maximum 5 degree bank would lead me and the results are here:
In very simple terms if one was stuck with 5 degrees bank when engine out then ATZs will have to be considerably larger to accommodate MEP and IR training and tests else EFATO asymmetric-circuit-to-land will all be way outside the airport's ATZ.
A practical example: In the case of Blackbushe we'd have to co-ordinate with Farnborough because we'd be overhead them when downwind [Blackbushe]
Maths below including knowns:
Blackbushe and Farnborough runways are within 10 degree of parallel, approx. 4nm (centre to centre) separates the two.
Turn Radius = TAS^2 /(Tan Bank Angle X G)
Where TAS is in Ft/sec, Bank Angle is in degrees, and G is in Ft/sec^s
6076 ft/nm
This example Vyse (blueline) is 107 KIAS [I have for this example assumed TAS=IAS as at these low heights the difference is minimal]
107 KIAS = 180.596 FPS
Bank angle = 5 degrees
Gravity = 32.174 ft/s/s
[for completeness, a climbing rate 1 turn (practised engine-out for any ME-IR candidate) at that speed would require about 17 degrees of bank]
t/f
radius of turn is
(180.596 * 180.596)
-------------------
Tan(5) * 32.174
=
32614.9
-------
2.815
=
11586.1 (feet)
=
1.9 NM RADIUS
NB diameter of turn (to where you would be start of ‘downwind’ leg) is min 3.8NM in nil wind; more if slight northerly component (in this example)
I did some maths homework to see where our theoretical maximum 5 degree bank would lead me and the results are here:
In very simple terms if one was stuck with 5 degrees bank when engine out then ATZs will have to be considerably larger to accommodate MEP and IR training and tests else EFATO asymmetric-circuit-to-land will all be way outside the airport's ATZ.
A practical example: In the case of Blackbushe we'd have to co-ordinate with Farnborough because we'd be overhead them when downwind [Blackbushe]
Maths below including knowns:
Blackbushe and Farnborough runways are within 10 degree of parallel, approx. 4nm (centre to centre) separates the two.
Turn Radius = TAS^2 /(Tan Bank Angle X G)
Where TAS is in Ft/sec, Bank Angle is in degrees, and G is in Ft/sec^s
6076 ft/nm
This example Vyse (blueline) is 107 KIAS [I have for this example assumed TAS=IAS as at these low heights the difference is minimal]
107 KIAS = 180.596 FPS
Bank angle = 5 degrees
Gravity = 32.174 ft/s/s
[for completeness, a climbing rate 1 turn (practised engine-out for any ME-IR candidate) at that speed would require about 17 degrees of bank]
t/f
radius of turn is
(180.596 * 180.596)
-------------------
Tan(5) * 32.174
=
32614.9
-------
2.815
=
11586.1 (feet)
=
1.9 NM RADIUS
NB diameter of turn (to where you would be start of ‘downwind’ leg) is min 3.8NM in nil wind; more if slight northerly component (in this example)
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F900Ex
All four of us dominant in the latter half of this discussion are good experienced pilots.
Yes take everything apart for detailed scrutiny till the accurate answer is achieved for lesser experienced pilots and for me as I am not a Theoretical SkyGod but why all the Willy waving and who are the Sky Gods MJ Me (don't think so) yourself or Miserlou.
I knew some lovely pilots who i considered Sky Gods and i am afraid that is where they are.
Pace
All four of us dominant in the latter half of this discussion are good experienced pilots.
Yes take everything apart for detailed scrutiny till the accurate answer is achieved for lesser experienced pilots and for me as I am not a Theoretical SkyGod but why all the Willy waving and who are the Sky Gods MJ Me (don't think so) yourself or Miserlou.
I knew some lovely pilots who i considered Sky Gods and i am afraid that is where they are.
Pace
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I ain't doing any willy waving that I know of, just trying to put a point across of following established manufactures procedures.
As for the skygod stuff never mentioned it in any of my posts until 272, and once you reach that level of status it is time to give up anyway.
So lets put an end to it and have a sensible discussion.
As for the skygod stuff never mentioned it in any of my posts until 272, and once you reach that level of status it is time to give up anyway.
So lets put an end to it and have a sensible discussion.
Last edited by F900 Ex; 1st Dec 2013 at 16:32.
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rustle your maths looks ok to me .
There is a difference with practise and real. The ability to bring the "dead" engine up to sort things out is always there.
The ATZ wouldn't figure in my cunning plan. In the works machine we are never in it until on finals.
And if there was a runway within 10 degrees and 4 miles away ahead I sure as hell wouldn't be doing a single engine circuit if it was a real one.
BTW our standard emergency procedure for airports without terrain issues is straight ahead to 1700ft agl accelerate then a 20-25deg turn back to the locator Which we wouldn't start until over 150knts with a Vyse of 120knts and by that point the power would have come back to about 65-70% torque which would have brought the Vmca down by 30% from an initial value of 101knts so we have a safety factor of 2 before starting the turn. Our Vrotate speeds are limited by Vmca until we are only a couple of 100kg off MTOW.
There is a difference with practise and real. The ability to bring the "dead" engine up to sort things out is always there.
The ATZ wouldn't figure in my cunning plan. In the works machine we are never in it until on finals.
And if there was a runway within 10 degrees and 4 miles away ahead I sure as hell wouldn't be doing a single engine circuit if it was a real one.
BTW our standard emergency procedure for airports without terrain issues is straight ahead to 1700ft agl accelerate then a 20-25deg turn back to the locator Which we wouldn't start until over 150knts with a Vyse of 120knts and by that point the power would have come back to about 65-70% torque which would have brought the Vmca down by 30% from an initial value of 101knts so we have a safety factor of 2 before starting the turn. Our Vrotate speeds are limited by Vmca until we are only a couple of 100kg off MTOW.
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MJ
BTW our standard emergency procedure for airports without terrain issues is straight ahead to 1700ft agl accelerate then a 20-25deg turn back to the locator Which we wouldn't start until over 150knts with a Vyse of 120knts
BTW our standard emergency procedure for airports without terrain issues is straight ahead to 1700ft agl accelerate then a 20-25deg turn back to the locator Which we wouldn't start until over 150knts with a Vyse of 120knts
Pace
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Madjock this contradicts just about all of your previous posts, 5 degrees of bank max.
All sounds very sensible to me.
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Meldex
I don't see the argument. I can't be bothered to wade through reams of posts to prove any point, but it seems to me MJ is saying 5 degrees of bank max when trying to climb at blue line speed, and would presumably accelerate once MSA is reached whereupon steeper turns would be in order.
All sounds very sensible to me
I don't see the argument. I can't be bothered to wade through reams of posts to prove any point, but it seems to me MJ is saying 5 degrees of bank max when trying to climb at blue line speed, and would presumably accelerate once MSA is reached whereupon steeper turns would be in order.
All sounds very sensible to me