"Light Twin" fatal at Hawarden
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Hawarden has the Beluga and maybe some HS125s, but it also has the very large A380 building only a few hundred yards from the runway, which does cause turbulence / wind shear / rotor if the wind is from the wrong direction.
I don't think it has been measured, with smoke tests, but it certainly gives a light aircraft a good shake up on some approaches. The flying schools don't like flying if the wind is 12 kts or more.
I don't think it has been measured, with smoke tests, but it certainly gives a light aircraft a good shake up on some approaches. The flying schools don't like flying if the wind is 12 kts or more.
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900
Sadly it will be pilot error as the vast majority are ; ( incapacitation while possible is very unlikely!
Having lost 7 pilot friends in air crashes all pilot error that has to be the most likely case! Some of those lost friends have been extremely experienced pilots so we all have to be aware!
Light twins ? They are a ball game of their own!
The second engine gives more options and with more options more choices!
With more choices the option to make the wrong choice : (
Pace
Sadly it will be pilot error as the vast majority are ; ( incapacitation while possible is very unlikely!
Having lost 7 pilot friends in air crashes all pilot error that has to be the most likely case! Some of those lost friends have been extremely experienced pilots so we all have to be aware!
Light twins ? They are a ball game of their own!
The second engine gives more options and with more options more choices!
With more choices the option to make the wrong choice : (
Pace
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Pace
Light twins ? They are a ball game of their own!
The second engine gives more options and with more options more choices!
With more choices the option to make the wrong choice : (
Light twins ? They are a ball game of their own!
The second engine gives more options and with more options more choices!
With more choices the option to make the wrong choice : (
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To me this looks like a classic "Vmc" incident - Full power on one engine only and below the red line speed. That is what I'd put my money on. Why this happened is another matter......Anyone who as done a "Vmc demo" knows how quick the thing can roll on its back if not corrected and the only way to correct is to close the throttle.
I don't think this is asymmetric flap deployment for the reason that normally you wouldn't wait until you are over the airport for the final stage of flaps, and probably it would be more controllable with an approach speed.
I don't think this is asymmetric flap deployment for the reason that normally you wouldn't wait until you are over the airport for the final stage of flaps, and probably it would be more controllable with an approach speed.
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englishal, I am guilty of looking at those pictures having already made my mind up what I thought was happening immediately before they were taken.
i.e. I visualised a 3 degree straight-in approach. Text book stuff. Asymmetric or both running I didn't know.
However something Michael posted (another place) made me think about what else might have happened
For example, if the pictures in the Mirror were the last 3 in a set of 7, and the first 4 (we haven't seen, I made these up) showed the aircraft on downwind then making a curved final approach, say 45 degree bank, would we automatically assume engine failure control issue? More likely we'd suspect aileron jammed or flap extension (you'd drop the flaps/gear in this turn) asymmetry - no time to react to that.
Not enough data in the public domain to know, but it shows how fixated you can become on one root-cause.
It also shows IMO why it is worth discussing these things - we may not have all the answers but sometimes the questions can be just as illuminating.
i.e. I visualised a 3 degree straight-in approach. Text book stuff. Asymmetric or both running I didn't know.
However something Michael posted (another place) made me think about what else might have happened
For example, if the pictures in the Mirror were the last 3 in a set of 7, and the first 4 (we haven't seen, I made these up) showed the aircraft on downwind then making a curved final approach, say 45 degree bank, would we automatically assume engine failure control issue? More likely we'd suspect aileron jammed or flap extension (you'd drop the flaps/gear in this turn) asymmetry - no time to react to that.
Not enough data in the public domain to know, but it shows how fixated you can become on one root-cause.
It also shows IMO why it is worth discussing these things - we may not have all the answers but sometimes the questions can be just as illuminating.
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They are not, V2 is best angle of climb on a Perf A aircraft.
Its is actually related as V2 has to be more than 1.1 of Vmca.
V2 is a safety speed related to a very specific configuration.
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See what I mean?
Its is actually related as V2 has to be more than 1.1 of Vmca.
V2 is a safety speed related to a very specific configuration.
Its is actually related as V2 has to be more than 1.1 of Vmca.
V2 is a safety speed related to a very specific configuration.
Please elaborate!
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At risk of thread drift, but to help correct some misunderstanding: V2 is not well grasped. The following relates to Class A aircraft.
Swatton's excellent 'Aircraft performance' takes one-and-a-half pages to describe V2, but perhaps the most succinct sentence in there (hoping the author doesn't minds a one-line quote) is: 'It is the lowest speed at which it is deemed safe to climb the aeroplane with one engine inoperative'.
Notably, it is neither the best angle nor best rate of climb speed; hence why some obstacles are best tackled with a substantially increased climb speed, provided runway length etc permit.
Swatton's excellent 'Aircraft performance' takes one-and-a-half pages to describe V2, but perhaps the most succinct sentence in there (hoping the author doesn't minds a one-line quote) is: 'It is the lowest speed at which it is deemed safe to climb the aeroplane with one engine inoperative'.
Notably, it is neither the best angle nor best rate of climb speed; hence why some obstacles are best tackled with a substantially increased climb speed, provided runway length etc permit.
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They don't have one Vmca. Which is the problem.
And TheiC has it right.
And also in our Pref Machines it is only calculated for a specific set of conditions. If you bank the aircraft more than 5 deg's it quite rapidly goes through the roof.
And V2 isn't your best angle of climb unless it satisfies another 4 conditions first. Then it maybe if your lucky.
As I said twin drivers go and find out about Vmca, once you do, you might not be as willing to do certain things close to the ground that you were happy to do before.
And TheiC has it right.
And also in our Pref Machines it is only calculated for a specific set of conditions. If you bank the aircraft more than 5 deg's it quite rapidly goes through the roof.
And V2 isn't your best angle of climb unless it satisfies another 4 conditions first. Then it maybe if your lucky.
As I said twin drivers go and find out about Vmca, once you do, you might not be as willing to do certain things close to the ground that you were happy to do before.
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What I am gleaming from this interesting discussion, and respect to the individuals who were involved in this incident, is the non understanding of certain aspects of twin operation. I am also always intrigued about the single verses twin arguement where the 'two are better than one' scenario is always given as better. I have rarely agreed with that sentiment.
I have a friend who has bought a lovely Baron. I asked how often he flew it, once a month VFR, cannot find the time. I thought to myself, Dear God, sell it.
Does anyone happen to know the history of the particular 310? Airframe time was quite low.
I have a friend who has bought a lovely Baron. I asked how often he flew it, once a month VFR, cannot find the time. I thought to myself, Dear God, sell it.
Does anyone happen to know the history of the particular 310? Airframe time was quite low.
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For certification purposes they do have only one Vmca and that figure is published in the AFM and denoted on the ASI, for most light multi engine aircraft that is the minimum Vmca.
And V2 isn't your best angle of climb unless it satisfies the other criteria for segment 1.
So the statement
They are not, V2 is best angle of climb on a Perf A aircraft.
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I am also always intrigued about the single verses twin arguement where the 'two are better than one' scenario is always given as better. I have rarely agreed with that sentiment
I am also always intrigued about the single verses twin arguement where the 'two are better than one' scenario is always given as better. I have rarely agreed with that sentiment
Multi engine ops, engine fails, decision, decision, decision, oh **** to late.
Mad_jock
Its not actually all that's published is the blue line speed
Its not actually all that's published is the blue line speed
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To be honest even with commercial twin drivers its a relatively ignored subject Everyone thinks V2 is some sort of get out of jail card and if your above that your sorted. Even if you tell them well actually you can be at Vyse and be below Vmca they start scoffing that your talking rubbish.
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well actually it wouldn't be until one engine failed and you had both at full power at the time. And it is why a GA from low level slower than Vyse is quite often fatal when an engine fails as power is reapplied. They decrease the flaps which possibly increases Vmca and over they go. As Vyse only works with the engine feathered Vmca can be significantly higher until the engine is secured.
hence my advice that twin drivers read up on Vmca know what effects it, how it effects it and when the best course of action is to chop the power not increase it.
And its one of the reasons why turning the thing into a single and chopping the power on the good engine and turning it into a glider is quite good advice.
hence my advice that twin drivers read up on Vmca know what effects it, how it effects it and when the best course of action is to chop the power not increase it.
And its one of the reasons why turning the thing into a single and chopping the power on the good engine and turning it into a glider is quite good advice.
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Jock,
Another important factor is how dynamic things may be at low speed and with a sudden problem. Stalking gently up to VMCA for a demo to a student, or in testing, is one thing. Suddenly encountering a big yaw, funny noise, confusing sensation in long-G, and then glancing at the ASI, as the mental model departs dramatically from reality, is another.
And 'dynamic' in this context is of course a layman's term, and it covers everything-versus-time, stick-force-per-G, acceleration, and myriad other factors which might be analysed with the benefit of hindsight...
Learn how to plan. Think about how you'll plan. Plan. Stick to the plan. Hope it was good one.
Another important factor is how dynamic things may be at low speed and with a sudden problem. Stalking gently up to VMCA for a demo to a student, or in testing, is one thing. Suddenly encountering a big yaw, funny noise, confusing sensation in long-G, and then glancing at the ASI, as the mental model departs dramatically from reality, is another.
And 'dynamic' in this context is of course a layman's term, and it covers everything-versus-time, stick-force-per-G, acceleration, and myriad other factors which might be analysed with the benefit of hindsight...
Learn how to plan. Think about how you'll plan. Plan. Stick to the plan. Hope it was good one.
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What I am gleaming from this interesting discussion
