"Light Twin" fatal at Hawarden
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It seems you have seriously misunderstood the dynamics of the situation.
In the 'max power below Vmca' case it is the roll which is uncontrollable.
Yes as the speed increases you get more rudder authority in a spiral but by which point your a fire ball.
And yes glider experience is valid because when the theory isn't there and you put your self in a situation ie being a test pilot over 5 degrees of bank and get your arse bitten you chop the power to the good engine and turn it into the glider and you might if your very lucky live. BUt as most of these things happy at circuit alt you won't have time or the potential energy to sort it out.
Last edited by mad_jock; 29th Nov 2013 at 13:14.
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F900 Ex
It is a minimum IAS airspeed in the air given a defined set of conditions of which one is using 5 deg of bank towards the live engine in light multi engine aircraft, below this speed loss of directional control will occur, this is a certification speed.
The same applies to jets however the 5 degrees of bank is not as relevant given there is no aerodynamic critical propellor and there is usually a far greater excess of thrust for climb performance.
There are many factors that will increase this minimum Vmca IAS. Turning the aircraft into or away from the live engine for manoeuvring purposes has nothing to do with using 5 degrees of bank for Vmca certification as you should not be flying close to Vmca during normal operations either using 2 engines or with one failed in a light multi engine aircraft.
For manoeuvring purposes then use the recommend figures from your AFM.
It is a minimum IAS airspeed in the air given a defined set of conditions of which one is using 5 deg of bank towards the live engine in light multi engine aircraft, below this speed loss of directional control will occur, this is a certification speed.
The same applies to jets however the 5 degrees of bank is not as relevant given there is no aerodynamic critical propellor and there is usually a far greater excess of thrust for climb performance.
There are many factors that will increase this minimum Vmca IAS. Turning the aircraft into or away from the live engine for manoeuvring purposes has nothing to do with using 5 degrees of bank for Vmca certification as you should not be flying close to Vmca during normal operations either using 2 engines or with one failed in a light multi engine aircraft.
For manoeuvring purposes then use the recommend figures from your AFM.
MJ
I don't believe you are reading my post correctly, look at it again and check the wording "Certification" " Minimum" "Manoeuvring Figures AFM"
If you really believe that limiting all turns to a maximum of 5 degrees towards the live engine during one engine out ops while manoeuvring at safe speeds above Vmca is normal, then you are wrong, how on earth for example would you comply with OEI routes or SID's having just departed in minimum RVRs and remaining IMC so not being able to manoeuvre visually.
Pace
And the biggest rule of all
Keep the bloody thing flyiing !! far better to crash under control that fall out of the sky like a stone!Do not fixate on having to climb at all cost and do not forget the 3 rd engine in twins or the 2nd engine in singles i.e. shove the nose over and trade altitude for energy
Pace
And the biggest rule of all
Keep the bloody thing flyiing !! far better to crash under control that fall out of the sky like a stone!Do not fixate on having to climb at all cost and do not forget the 3 rd engine in twins or the 2nd engine in singles i.e. shove the nose over and trade altitude for energy
Pace
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Nobody has those figures the only figure you have is the Vmca figure in the AFM which is valid with 5 degrees of bank.
As soon as your over that your into test pilot zone.
Personally I can see no reason at all for doing more than 5 deg bank turn with the good engine going at full chat unless your about to hit a hill.
As soon as your over that your into test pilot zone.
Personally I can see no reason at all for doing more than 5 deg bank turn with the good engine going at full chat unless your about to hit a hill.
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MJ
The roll is only there because you have run out of rudder to oppose the force on the wing. The secondary effect of that yaw is roll. You can have full opposite aileron input and you will be in a sideslip which will eat up the remaining of you pretty poor excess power so its either pitch down or the airspeed comes back even more which will increase the yaw and make your ailerons less responsive and over you go.
The roll is only there because you have run out of rudder to oppose the force on the wing. The secondary effect of that yaw is roll. You can have full opposite aileron input and you will be in a sideslip which will eat up the remaining of you pretty poor excess power so its either pitch down or the airspeed comes back even more which will increase the yaw and make your ailerons less responsive and over you go.
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F900
Totally agree ; ) but we are not talking about pilots who maintain blue line whether climbing level or descending at that speed we are talking about those who don't for one reason or another!
In a perfect world ?
Hence tap into the other engine the potential energy in the airframe ! Keep the thing flying at all cost
Pace
Totally agree ; ) but we are not talking about pilots who maintain blue line whether climbing level or descending at that speed we are talking about those who don't for one reason or another!
In a perfect world ?
Hence tap into the other engine the potential energy in the airframe ! Keep the thing flying
at all cost Pace
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MJ
Nobody has those figures the only figure you have is the Vmca figure in the AFM which is valid with 5 degrees of bank.
As soon as your over that your into test pilot zone.
Personally I can see no reason at all for doing more than 5 deg bank turn with the good engine going at full chat unless your about to hit a hill.
Nobody has those figures the only figure you have is the Vmca figure in the AFM which is valid with 5 degrees of bank.
As soon as your over that your into test pilot zone.
Personally I can see no reason at all for doing more than 5 deg bank turn with the good engine going at full chat unless your about to hit a hill.
Last edited by F900 Ex; 29th Nov 2013 at 14:39.
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Originally Posted by mad_jock
Nobody has those figures the only figure you have is the Vmca figure in the AFM which is valid with 5 degrees of bank.
As soon as your over that your into test pilot zone.
Personally I can see no reason at all for doing more than 5 deg bank turn with the good engine going at full chat unless your about to hit a hill.
As soon as your over that your into test pilot zone.
Personally I can see no reason at all for doing more than 5 deg bank turn with the good engine going at full chat unless your about to hit a hill.
Once safely at blueline (on one engine) there is nothing wrong with turning (in either direction) at reasonable bank angles exceeding 5 degrees - as a rule of thumb we used 20 degree as a maximum -still maintaining blueline.
Nailing blueline is paramount unless you are committed to landing IMO.
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Nailing blueline is paramount unless you are committed to landing IMO.
This is the bit I would not totally agree with and maybe I am being pedantic.
Blue line is a base line not to go below rather than a speed to nail!
There are other options which could mean speeds higher than blue line i.e. setting up level flight rather than attempting a climb. In a Seneca level flight will eventually give you blue line plus 30 kts
Pace
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F900
Totally agree ; ) but we are not talking about pilots who maintain blue line whether climbing level or descending at that speed we are talking about those who don't for one reason or another!
In a perfect world ?
F900
Totally agree ; ) but we are not talking about pilots who maintain blue line whether climbing level or descending at that speed we are talking about those who don't for one reason or another!
In a perfect world ?
That is exactly why there is a defined training syllabus and set of operating procedures for all aircraft that have been designed taking in to account the lowest common denominator = the worst performing pilot.
Now if the worst performing pilot then goes of half cocked using procedures outside of the recommended then accidents happen, so everyone has to be trained to a known datum based on the manufactures procedures and recommendations, not hear say.
Pace
This is the bit I would not totally agree with and maybe I am being pedantic.
Blue line is a base line not to go below rather than a speed to nail!
Pace
This is the bit I would not totally agree with and maybe I am being pedantic.
Blue line is a base line not to go below rather than a speed to nail!
Pace
Blue line speed on the aircraft I operate can be as high as 195 Kts depending on weight, best angle for the same weight is 135 Kts but using your logic I could hit a hill !!!! because I shouldn't go below blue line speed.
And yes it's a jet but using Madjocks logic it doesn't make any difference anyway being a jet or piston, so where do you draw the line now ?
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F900 Ex, agree completely
Maybe my comment
should have read: Nailing blueline is paramount unless you are committed to landing IMO *OR* you need to climb at Vxse
Now in the 310R they (Vyse / Vxse) happen to be the same IAS, however your point is well made.
Maybe my comment
Nailing blueline is paramount unless you are committed to landing IMO
Now in the 310R they (Vyse / Vxse) happen to be the same IAS, however your point is well made.
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F900
I am talking exclusively about light twins in an engine out situation.
I am not talking about flying ballistic missiles but light twins some which will not give you a climb at all whatever you do.
As such I feel they are unique and a number of options need to be considered which might be pulling both back and taking to a field. how many train for PFLs in light twins?
pace
I am talking exclusively about light twins in an engine out situation.
I am not talking about flying ballistic missiles but light twins some which will not give you a climb at all whatever you do.
As such I feel they are unique and a number of options need to be considered which might be pulling both back and taking to a field. how many train for PFLs in light twins?
pace
Last edited by Pace; 29th Nov 2013 at 14:42.
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Pace
I am talking exclusively about light twins in an engine out situation
pace
I am talking exclusively about light twins in an engine out situation
pace
As MJ stated aerodynamic principles jet or piston are the same and to be correct it is you and MJ who keep going on about jets.
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Pace
Would you like to publish some light twin VYSE and VXSE FIGURES?
Frankly you will be lucky to go up at all on many at any speed !!!
Pace
Would you like to publish some light twin VYSE and VXSE FIGURES?
Frankly you will be lucky to go up at all on many at any speed !!!
Pace
And all of the 15+ different piston multi engined aircraft I have flown all produced a positive climb of some description on one engine during C of A testing when operated according to the manufacture's procedures.
Last edited by F900 Ex; 29th Nov 2013 at 15:16.
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I don't talk about jets I don't fly them. Just done 2 sectors with two fans outside the window.
Go and look at that paper and see what happens to the Vmca.
But fundamentally your PIC so its your risk analysis. Me I keep to my 5 degree of bank. Never had an Vmca incident in the sim. Watched quite a few mind.
Last one was to base after a circling approach with one stage of flap to go.
The FO didn't get the power up as we did a 30 degree bank turn. Stick shaker triggered. He quite happily lowered the nose slightly and fire walled the good engine doing the stall recovery. Thankfully as I saw him go for the power lever I shut my eyes (I was dead). 1.5 seconds later the sim had crashed and we had managed to blow one of the hydraulic lines with the turn reversal. The eye shutting was to stop me barfing.
So I am quite happy for you guys to continue doing what you like without me onboard
Go on the FX next time you do your flight tests descend at a suitable height at simulated idle at blue line speed and then turn 15 degrees and fire wall the outside engine and then post a pic of the condition of your underpants.
Once safely at blueline (on one engine) there is nothing wrong with turning (in either direction) at reasonable bank angles exceeding 5 degrees
But fundamentally your PIC so its your risk analysis. Me I keep to my 5 degree of bank. Never had an Vmca incident in the sim. Watched quite a few mind.
Last one was to base after a circling approach with one stage of flap to go.
The FO didn't get the power up as we did a 30 degree bank turn. Stick shaker triggered. He quite happily lowered the nose slightly and fire walled the good engine doing the stall recovery. Thankfully as I saw him go for the power lever I shut my eyes (I was dead). 1.5 seconds later the sim had crashed and we had managed to blow one of the hydraulic lines with the turn reversal. The eye shutting was to stop me barfing.
So I am quite happy for you guys to continue doing what you like without me onboard
Go on the FX next time you do your flight tests descend at a suitable height at simulated idle at blue line speed and then turn 15 degrees and fire wall the outside engine and then post a pic of the condition of your underpants.
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MJ,
So you are saying that after making a mistake, the first officer took the wrong corrective action which lead to loss of control.
That doesn't mean that not making the original mistake is dangerous!
You really make flying MEP or MET sound really dangerous, fireballs and test pilot country and the like.
I just hope that whoever is flying when I am a passinger has more confidence and understanding of the aerodynamics than you seem to have.
Just for a laugh, go try your 5 degree banked turns in the missed approach at Chambery or Innsbruck. Please only in the sim though.
And btw, a spiral dive is a totally coordinated flight condition. Often occurs when people stop rolling in the second half of a barrel roll.
F900EX,
Is one not allowed to use the ailerons? The uncontrollable TURN occurs due to insufficient RUDDER authority. The uncontrollable ROLL comes from insufficient AILERON authority. Otherwise the aircraft would just turn.
That is why Vmca certification includes maximum force on both rudder AND aileron.
So you are saying that after making a mistake, the first officer took the wrong corrective action which lead to loss of control.
That doesn't mean that not making the original mistake is dangerous!
You really make flying MEP or MET sound really dangerous, fireballs and test pilot country and the like.
I just hope that whoever is flying when I am a passinger has more confidence and understanding of the aerodynamics than you seem to have.
Just for a laugh, go try your 5 degree banked turns in the missed approach at Chambery or Innsbruck. Please only in the sim though.
And btw, a spiral dive is a totally coordinated flight condition. Often occurs when people stop rolling in the second half of a barrel roll.
F900EX,
Is one not allowed to use the ailerons? The uncontrollable TURN occurs due to insufficient RUDDER authority. The uncontrollable ROLL comes from insufficient AILERON authority. Otherwise the aircraft would just turn.
That is why Vmca certification includes maximum force on both rudder AND aileron.
Last edited by Miserlou; 29th Nov 2013 at 17:49.
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And all of the 15+ different piston multi engined aircraft I have flown all produced a positive climb of some description on one engine during C of A testing when operated according to the manufacture's procedures.
I think all this is becoming a bit pedantic and point scoring None of us posting here are idiots obviously you fly to the manufacturers figures. We had quite a problem on my last Jet flight and you go to the emergency checklist.
Yet I have flown with many pilots who seem incapable of flying accurately taking gear or flaps at wrong speeds and you ask yourself what is so difficult at flying accurate numbers. Many get behind the aircraft or a situation or cannot pick up their game to what is happening around them. but we are all different!
As a side note the manufacturers of light twins gain their climb rates based on brand new aircraft with fresh engines not some 30 yr old beaten up near time expired wreck.
Whether 5 hrs for a multi engine rating is adequate? But what do I know.
There is a massive difference from theorising in front of the computer with a cup of cocoa or something stronger in your hand and being in an aircraft maybe in bad weather when something goes seriously wrong.
But with your skils and experience you know that.
Please feel free to go through my posts and pick out mistakes! I am sure you will find one somewhere as yes I have a lot of experience flying in **** but have been lucky but like most of us other than the Sky Gods make a small error now and again even in these forums.
i mentioned jets because thats what I fly maybe high powered turboprops would have been a better example compared to minimal performance light twins
Sadly a very experienced pilot and his companion were killed! Ok its possible he had some catastrophic failure or had a coronary at the controls but more likely the poor guy got it wrong.
we all make mistakes you included unless you are truly a Sky God. Some of us get away with it a small portion do not with fatal and awful consequences.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 29th Nov 2013 at 20:29.
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Gary & Kaye
I've just heard form my parents who also knew Gary, and were kind enough to attend the funeral on my behalf. Some of the content isn't for public consumption especially concerning those who didn't show, comment or make themselves represented; I'm cutting and pasting those parts which are, verbatim:
It's been a hellish day, but hopefully this can be the first step to closure and they can rest in peace. Godspeed to you both.
Hi Jeff,
A very upbeat service in which Gordon and Gary's son showed true grit delivering a Eulogy for both Gary and Kaye.
The Chapel was packed and overflowed.
Most of Chester was there…….
Under the circumstances it was as good as it gets and I think Gordon's appreciation of your input and support was plainly apparent when we introduced ourselves to him both at the Service and at the wake from which we have just returned.
A very upbeat service in which Gordon and Gary's son showed true grit delivering a Eulogy for both Gary and Kaye.
The Chapel was packed and overflowed.
Most of Chester was there…….
Under the circumstances it was as good as it gets and I think Gordon's appreciation of your input and support was plainly apparent when we introduced ourselves to him both at the Service and at the wake from which we have just returned.
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Just for a laugh, go try your 5 degree banked turns in the missed approach at Chambery or Innsbruck. Please only in the sim though.
And no he sort of did and sort of didn't, he did do what the stall procedure is. Decrease angle of attack and apply power before rolling wings level and if he had been both engines it would have worked a treat. If he had rolled the wings level, then applied the power he would have got away with it as well. But he didn't and Vmca bit his bum.
You really make flying MEP or MET sound really dangerous, fireballs and test pilot country and the like.
You arguing the toss and you have never seen a Vmca incident it happens in under a second. Its not a gradual thinking you are loosing it and then it gentle rolls on its back. The whole thing happens in under a second. Not enough time to think
mad_jock was right. Don't worry I have double figures of TRE's in my license that deem me fit to command a Transport multicrew aircraft.
Your opinion is quite frankly meaningless has zero impact on me or what I do and teach other commercial pilots.