Cheesed off! but perhaps for the better good in the long run?!
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I would be looking to joint purchase with 5 or 6 friends, some with licenses and a couple who would like a license. I was then considering perhaps allowing a few more people who can join the group in a similar way to the group i was in basically just charging a small joining fee + a competitive hr rate.
Also, you will STILL need to have some sort of system in place for those of you that ARE part owners to ensure monthly bills are still paid even if no one hires it (tech aircraft, dud wx etc.) this will probably end up initially much like the groups monthly payments you have talked about that you do not seem to like, though hopefully over time you would build up a surplus for these periods.
Last edited by foxmoth; 19th Aug 2013 at 22:52.
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Lets break these issues down a bit more
Not the end of the world if this was the only thing, but it wasn't, and it's not nice to leave everything a mess. If the next guy only wants to fly solo he has to tidy and secure all the other harnesses, which is a pain for him.
Which four? If it was avionics, then I can see them getting annoyed at you, as leaving these on during engine shutdown doesn't do the radios any good (perhaps people doing this over and over has contributed to the radio problems?). Also, if the next guy jumps in and flicks the master on, whatever those four switches are will also come on. Say it's Pitot heat, again not good to drain the battery in this way. I feel they have a pretty valid point on this one, as not leaving things switched off and safe shows that you haven't followed any checklist or procedure here, which could be an indication of other aspects of your flying.
On a PA28 you really don't use this, so I don't see their point here, nonsense and nit picking I guess.
This could be a big deal, as it is rather against the POH advice. I can see how it happened if all you've ever flown is a cessna, but you need to work checking the fuel into your work cycle, particularly if planning to buy an arrow.
Probably the fault of whoever checked you out/introduced you to the group, all flying clubs leave aircraft unlocked, many groups do too, so why would you expect any different. Just like most clubs leave the fuel cock on when owners may want this off.
This is only really a big deal if it was windy, as the excess will flap around and bash the side of the aircraft. What was the wind that day? Did you park it into wind?
All in all, I'd say a ban was pretty harsh, and they should've just raised these points on how the aircraft should be left and give you another go. If this was truly a one off as you've outlined then it certainly seems unfair, perhaps best to move on.
Why on earth would you want to buy an Arrow? It's just a heavier more expensive warrior, and you can get some very nice IFR kit in a warrior which is far cheaper per hour, and per mile flown.
Left the seatbelts untidy -something i never usually do!
Left four switches on (but not the master) -American switches, i turned them off, but can remember looking back that i turned them back on again as i exited the cockpit after looking them and thinking they was actually in the 'On' position!
Left the throttle friction tight -however i had not used this at all!
Flew an hour on just the Left tank, however i did forget to change tanks after 30min but i did select Right tank before arriving in the ATZ of base, i re-selected Left tank after shutdown.
Left the driver door unlocked (never had to lock a door in 60hours of training -habbit!)
And i left the excess straps on the A/C cover loose and not tucked in -This i was not told about in my check ride as the instructor told me to go to the ATM for his payment whilst he re-fitted the cover!!
All in all, I'd say a ban was pretty harsh, and they should've just raised these points on how the aircraft should be left and give you another go. If this was truly a one off as you've outlined then it certainly seems unfair, perhaps best to move on.
Why on earth would you want to buy an Arrow? It's just a heavier more expensive warrior, and you can get some very nice IFR kit in a warrior which is far cheaper per hour, and per mile flown.
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This is only really a big deal if it was windy, as the excess will flap around and bash the side of the aircraft. What was the wind that day? Did you park it into wind?
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You might decide to put aside the indignation and man-up to some shortcomings on the day. The deficit of airmanship and etiquette might be partly explained by inexperience and unfamiliarity; one constructive approach might be to put this on the record and request a more comprehensive briefing and/or check. In effect, you could start thinking more like an owner and less like a renter. This would also give you the opportunity to demonstrate and see if you can reproduce the radio issues, and to clarify whether it's a real technical issue or finger trouble.
I've rented and owned many aircraft and, when renting, have always tried to go the extra distance in operating and returning the aircraft. Similarly, when others have rented my aircraft, I've left them in no doubt from the beginning what my (high) expectations are. People come from many different training and life backgrounds and a good first briefing is important. In your case, the group rep might have recognized that your briefing was not perfect and offered you another or you could, as I've suggested, have asked for a second one.
At the end of it all though, there is no excuse for leaving the aircraft in less than the best possible state. You've explained some mitigating circumstances but part of being a pilot is to learn to put all those aside and do the right thing by the aircraft, owners and subsequent pilots. Operating aircraft in hostile conditions with sometimes needy passengers does help clarify what your priorities as PIC should be. Chalk it up to experience.
I wish you luck in resolving the situation, and rest assured that being a good group member will stand you in good stead as a future owner.
I've rented and owned many aircraft and, when renting, have always tried to go the extra distance in operating and returning the aircraft. Similarly, when others have rented my aircraft, I've left them in no doubt from the beginning what my (high) expectations are. People come from many different training and life backgrounds and a good first briefing is important. In your case, the group rep might have recognized that your briefing was not perfect and offered you another or you could, as I've suggested, have asked for a second one.
At the end of it all though, there is no excuse for leaving the aircraft in less than the best possible state. You've explained some mitigating circumstances but part of being a pilot is to learn to put all those aside and do the right thing by the aircraft, owners and subsequent pilots. Operating aircraft in hostile conditions with sometimes needy passengers does help clarify what your priorities as PIC should be. Chalk it up to experience.
I wish you luck in resolving the situation, and rest assured that being a good group member will stand you in good stead as a future owner.
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As an owner who rents out his Archer II (I have the only four place non-complex single for rent in the country!) I can understand how someone may get annoyed if the airplane is left "in a state".
We head only once side of the story.
The seat belt thing does annoy me - but annoyance should not be reason to ban some one.
My real pet peeves are - avionics left on (yes it can cause thousand of dollars of damage), carb heat in the on position - carb heat not a PA28-181 landing item so why it on (it bypasses the air filter so someone hovered up all the crap on the taxiway into my engine - more potential thousands of dollars of damage), writing in the tech log that the oil was at less than 6qts - if it was, why the **** did you start the engine? - potentially tens of thousands of dollars of damage and one dead renter).
The straps thing I understand - here we have 20mph winds all day every day - a loose strap on the cover slapping against the paint will wear a hole in it pdq - but there should have been a warning.
Leaving the airplane tidy is simply good manners - it being hot is not an excuse - here in the tropics I tell people that they get a free sauna at the start and end of each flight - 50C sounds about right.
A bit harsh banning someone for one incident and on their first use - should have given a warning and if it happened again then ban them or I find the $100 lineman fee to tidy the plane seems to focus the mind.
The guy and his group sounds dodgy in one respect, the numbers - the 20 person maximum was around when I was in the UK - in practical terms 12 seem the realistic maximum if the group is 'flyers' you'd struggle to get a decent booking ( a fly away) once or twice a year with over 20.
We head only once side of the story.
The seat belt thing does annoy me - but annoyance should not be reason to ban some one.
My real pet peeves are - avionics left on (yes it can cause thousand of dollars of damage), carb heat in the on position - carb heat not a PA28-181 landing item so why it on (it bypasses the air filter so someone hovered up all the crap on the taxiway into my engine - more potential thousands of dollars of damage), writing in the tech log that the oil was at less than 6qts - if it was, why the **** did you start the engine? - potentially tens of thousands of dollars of damage and one dead renter).
The straps thing I understand - here we have 20mph winds all day every day - a loose strap on the cover slapping against the paint will wear a hole in it pdq - but there should have been a warning.
Leaving the airplane tidy is simply good manners - it being hot is not an excuse - here in the tropics I tell people that they get a free sauna at the start and end of each flight - 50C sounds about right.
A bit harsh banning someone for one incident and on their first use - should have given a warning and if it happened again then ban them or I find the $100 lineman fee to tidy the plane seems to focus the mind.
The guy and his group sounds dodgy in one respect, the numbers - the 20 person maximum was around when I was in the UK - in practical terms 12 seem the realistic maximum if the group is 'flyers' you'd struggle to get a decent booking ( a fly away) once or twice a year with over 20.
Last edited by Ebbie 2003; 20th Aug 2013 at 07:38.
The problem i have with joining a group is the costs from what i have seen on most of them. Ie.. £XXXX.00 to join, then £70~£120 per month then £60~£100 ph + annual contribution! this is too much.
An IFR aircraft is bl00dy expensive to own and operate, and sharing fixed costs such as Annuals, insurance, hangarage etc makes sense especially if you wont be flying much (Quite frankly, you wont be able to afford much flying if you are stumping up the entire cost of owning an IFR aircraft on a £50K salary)
Remember the old adage - "If it flies, floats, or f&cks, its cheaper to rent"
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Mariner - my Archer II is IFR and the cost of getting parts here makes the UK look like a bargain.
That said mine has cost far less to operate that I expected - with some rentals the marginal cost of my personal flying works out at 50 cents an hour - even with a five figure insurance premium ( there is a monopoly insurer!) and renting at prices below typical UK levels - the benefit of being the only provider I suppose.
I do know that I was fortunate to get a "good one", old, not pretty but beautifully rigged, OK avionics (no NARCO) and a new engine - so it's a gamble.
Write off the capital and look to be spending GBP20,000 and work out how you'll do that and if you can live with it great - if not a group is a good idea, even if you start it yourself.
That said mine has cost far less to operate that I expected - with some rentals the marginal cost of my personal flying works out at 50 cents an hour - even with a five figure insurance premium ( there is a monopoly insurer!) and renting at prices below typical UK levels - the benefit of being the only provider I suppose.
I do know that I was fortunate to get a "good one", old, not pretty but beautifully rigged, OK avionics (no NARCO) and a new engine - so it's a gamble.
Write off the capital and look to be spending GBP20,000 and work out how you'll do that and if you can live with it great - if not a group is a good idea, even if you start it yourself.
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Write off the capital
Last edited by foxmoth; 20th Aug 2013 at 07:56.
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RTN11 Left four switches on (but not the master) -American switches, i turned them off, but can remember looking back that i turned them back on again as i exited the cockpit after looking them and thinking they was actually in the 'On' position!
Which four? If it was avionics, then I can see them getting annoyed at you, as leaving these on during engine shutdown doesn't do the radios any good (perhaps people doing this over and over has contributed to the radio problems?). Also, if the next guy jumps in and flicks the master on, whatever those four switches are will also come on. Say it's Pitot heat, again not good to drain the battery in this way. I feel they have a pretty valid point on this one, as not leaving things switched off and safe shows that you haven't followed any checklist or procedure here, which could be an indication of other aspects of your flying.
Btw, i have never had to fit an AC cover before neither! and as i was never shown how to re-fit it, just shown how to take it off and fold it in such a manner that its easy to go back on, i was pretty pleased with myself that i got the thing on neatly! Knew nothing about tucking the straps!
I did email the guy back, apologising multiple times, i tried to explain my self and what happened and even suggested that perhaps i could do another hour with the Instructor or even himself to learn the correct procedures and how to use the intercom equipment. I was very polite in my email however that was over a week and half ago now and i have had no response! It would have been nice for him to even reply, i left my phone number in the email too.
Btw, i understand why group costs are what they are, never said i didnt. however when your 1/16 share is £3k to join + £80pm +£80 ph for a PA28 then i dont see why. Thats £48000 in joining fees and £15350 pa in monthly memberships! They burn 34LPH of fuel @£2 pL = £68 ph so that leaves £12 ph towards what? times that by 16 members flying 10 hours a year each = £2000. So the group would be taking in a total of £17350 a year for an AC that was likely easily paid off in the first £48k joining fee! From most of what i researched, a single owner doing 50 hours flying a year in a PA28 and storing it outside at the airfield would be looking at spending £10k pa total! This is where i would split the share between 5~6 friends thus dividing a £40k purchase price evenly at £6500 each, and then the anual costs (est 6500~7000 pa) would cost 6 people £95 pm each. then the cost PH = whatever the cost of fuel! Also like i mentioned before, if i was to add say 3~4 outsiders to rent the AC at a competitive price, then i could get the monthly costs from £95 pm down to £40~£50 pm. however, i have taken on-board what people have mentioned about higher CofE standards.
Last edited by RyanRs; 20th Aug 2013 at 09:07.
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Don't be in such a rush
Hi RyanRs,
Do please forgive me for saying this. You have sixty hours on one dreary spam can and are now contemplating buying another even drearier and probably clapped out spam can, (which is all you can buy for the sort of money you will be able to afford).
May I suggest before you do this you gain some wider experience. Try flying a wider range of aircraft before you decide to buy. French aircraft of the same generation as the Pa28s and C152s were much nicer to fly. Some of the newer VLAs are brilliant and why not try a couple of vintage aircraft, perhaps an Auster or a Tiger Moth?
These may change your ideas about what to buy into.
Good luck!
Regards,
BP.
Do please forgive me for saying this. You have sixty hours on one dreary spam can and are now contemplating buying another even drearier and probably clapped out spam can, (which is all you can buy for the sort of money you will be able to afford).
May I suggest before you do this you gain some wider experience. Try flying a wider range of aircraft before you decide to buy. French aircraft of the same generation as the Pa28s and C152s were much nicer to fly. Some of the newer VLAs are brilliant and why not try a couple of vintage aircraft, perhaps an Auster or a Tiger Moth?
These may change your ideas about what to buy into.
Good luck!
Regards,
BP.
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Thanks BroomstickPilot ill take that in mind. Tbh i was just looking for something thats cheap(er) overall that does the job. Something that can happily get me out and about and exploring europe with atleast 2 px with me. It does cross my mind if a tourer is the kind of AC i really want as having done some aerobatics and coming from a long history of performing extreme sports, i am a bit of an adrenalin junkie and i would love to someday own an aeros plane. however as we all know, don't run before you can walk! I just thought that something like a PA28 + Europe is going to really help me pack on some experience. I do have a Mauritian friend however who is always raving on about french AC, may have to try a few and see. Just hope they build there GA AC better than they build there cars!! 
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Sensible advice Broomstick, check out everything prior to rushing in.
This thread made me laugh slightly, in remembering a rental I had a year or so back. I have always been fortunate in owning my own aircraft, and the only person I can get cheesed off with is myself!
However. I took a club aircraft out, the usual clapped out thing, mines was in for maitenance, and on our return the LED lights for the nav and radios began to fail. Once inside the CTZ, of course, all radios failed, with us in a hold, and positioned number 4 in traffic for landing. (A big busy airport). As you can imagine, things got quite exciting. It all worked out well, and after a safe landing, and a lot of help from the controllers, I logged in the tech book, the issue, and grounded the aircraft for avionics inspection.
A subsequent e mail, and telephone call from owner, and the club CFI, kicked my backside for noting the event in the tech log - quote 'costing us money because the aeroplane is grounded', and 'the procedure is give me a call before putting anything in the tech log'. Not a 'sorry about that are you all right', or 'thanks for sorting that issue out and getting it back on the ground', no, my arse got kicked.
Never rented that particular aeroplane again
This thread made me laugh slightly, in remembering a rental I had a year or so back. I have always been fortunate in owning my own aircraft, and the only person I can get cheesed off with is myself!
However. I took a club aircraft out, the usual clapped out thing, mines was in for maitenance, and on our return the LED lights for the nav and radios began to fail. Once inside the CTZ, of course, all radios failed, with us in a hold, and positioned number 4 in traffic for landing. (A big busy airport). As you can imagine, things got quite exciting. It all worked out well, and after a safe landing, and a lot of help from the controllers, I logged in the tech book, the issue, and grounded the aircraft for avionics inspection.
A subsequent e mail, and telephone call from owner, and the club CFI, kicked my backside for noting the event in the tech log - quote 'costing us money because the aeroplane is grounded', and 'the procedure is give me a call before putting anything in the tech log'. Not a 'sorry about that are you all right', or 'thanks for sorting that issue out and getting it back on the ground', no, my arse got kicked.
Never rented that particular aeroplane again
This is where i would split the share between 5~6 friends thus dividing a £40k purchase price evenly at £6500 each
the anual costs (est 6500~7000 pa) would cost 6 people £95 pm each
That figure seems really low. Have you thought about annual insurance, hangarage/tiedown costs, and the killer - annual maintenance/inspection, which could easily be £10K alone? How much research have you done in this regard?
then the cost PH = whatever the cost of fuel!
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Well the research i have done is purely what i could piece together on here + goggle. I also have a friend who is a mechanic at headcorn who has got me prices. I have included insurance, hangar, 50 hour, radio, annual, CofE in that. the only thing i haven't accounted for is the 10 year respray (£5k) and the 2000 hour rebuild. Tbh, i have built a drag racing car from scratch in my garage over the past 7 years so im pretty good with mechanics and engines etc (100% on my technical PPL with only moderate revision ;D), so i was half considering perhaps getting myself qualified as an aircraft mechanic -depending on costs and time-frame. If this is allowed i could imagine this to cut my repair costs down by a lot?!
These are the prices i got:-
Fifty Hour / six month inspection £320 (+vat).
One Hundred & Fifty Hour inspection £560 (+vat).
Annual inspection £1,600 (+vat).
Radio Annual £198 (+vat).
Rectification work £45 / hour (+vat).
So, forgetting about any rectification work that comes to £3220 (inclusive 20% vat). I have accounted for insurance at £2000 per year , for storage (outside) im guessing from what i have heard -£200 pm. totals £7620. 40 hours fuel x £68 ph = £2720 giving a total of £10340. + any rectification work.
Do these sound like realistic figures?
These are the prices i got:-
Fifty Hour / six month inspection £320 (+vat).
One Hundred & Fifty Hour inspection £560 (+vat).
Annual inspection £1,600 (+vat).
Radio Annual £198 (+vat).
Rectification work £45 / hour (+vat).
So, forgetting about any rectification work that comes to £3220 (inclusive 20% vat). I have accounted for insurance at £2000 per year , for storage (outside) im guessing from what i have heard -£200 pm. totals £7620. 40 hours fuel x £68 ph = £2720 giving a total of £10340. + any rectification work.
Do these sound like realistic figures?
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Btw, i understand why group costs are what they are, never said i didnt. however when your 1/16 share is £3k to join + £80pm +£80 ph for a PA28 then i dont see why. Thats £48000 in joining fees and £15350 pa in monthly memberships! They burn 34LPH of fuel @£2 pL = £68 ph so that leaves £12 ph towards what? times that by 16 members flying 10 hours a year each = £2000.
Try it with an LAA type that you can do a lot of the work yourself, put it on a farm strip and THEN you will start to get your costs down.
Last edited by foxmoth; 20th Aug 2013 at 11:29.
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Do these sound like realistic figures?
the only thing i haven't accounted for is the 10 year respray (£5k) and the 2000 hour rebuild.
I note, If you then price this for your 16 member group you actually get to about £45 pm each, not far off what I quoted, and I did not include 50/150 hr checks in that as I consider them as part of the hourly charge (how many you do in a year will depend on usage) - add the engine fund on to your fuel and again, talking £80ph
Last edited by foxmoth; 20th Aug 2013 at 11:16.
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I was at Lydd and heard you on the radio that day. You did the right thing and asked for advice. Your checkout sounds a little rushed and it may have contributed to the problem somewhere (I don't know how, but the CFI didn't find it did he?).
Personally I would chalk all that down to experience and spend a little more time gathering knowledge before contemplating running a group. You will find some in the group will be co-operative and others will not. Why not join a group and gain experience before committing? Lydd manage several groups - come down and have a chat about the details before contemplating trying to run one.
Personally I would chalk all that down to experience and spend a little more time gathering knowledge before contemplating running a group. You will find some in the group will be co-operative and others will not. Why not join a group and gain experience before committing? Lydd manage several groups - come down and have a chat about the details before contemplating trying to run one.
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Getting a ban does seem a bit harsh, but you did make some really silly mistakes. I mean, flying on one tank for such a long time suggest you weren't doing any FREDA (or similar) checks enroute? The aircraft would be out of balance with such a disparity in fuel between the left and right tanks. If I got in that to go flying I would be a bit annoyed too... 
But anyway, I think the most important point is that you learn from your mistakes and put it all down to experience. Everybody makes mistakes from time to time.
But anyway, I think the most important point is that you learn from your mistakes and put it all down to experience. Everybody makes mistakes from time to time.
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DeeCee - what is the CFE's name down lydd? he did tell me he was on here, Steve rings a bell? iirc his last name was the same name as the road he lives in, i remember him telling me somethign like that?
I would love to join a group in Lydd, a very well equipt airport and excellent runway however i live in north kent and it would take me over an hour to drive there :/
G-F0RC3 - I did do regular and frequent FREDA checks, but as if i was in a cessna. 'Fuel - On and sufficient' It didn't cross my mind to change tanks as im not used to doing it. I can almost certainly say that had the radio not been screaming in my ears for the entire flight, i would have had much more concentration on vital differences that i need to check that aren't in the cessna. I did check tanks when down Lydd, i could see there was enough left for the return journey in the Left tank and i did notice it was less full than the right, however i remembered back to when i quizzed my instructor about this back in training when a Cessna was full one side and 4/5 full the other and he said it was because of un-even ground. I thought this about the PA28 and didnt think any more about it. A mistake that i will NEVER forget again! I used to forget carb heat checks as part of my FREDA, until the day that me and my instructor was up in cold moist air and suddenly from nowhere the engine started spluttering.. My instructor went straight for the carb heat without a second delay and resolved the problem. Since then i have NEVER forgotten a carb heat / icing check!
I would love to join a group in Lydd, a very well equipt airport and excellent runway however i live in north kent and it would take me over an hour to drive there :/
G-F0RC3 - I did do regular and frequent FREDA checks, but as if i was in a cessna. 'Fuel - On and sufficient' It didn't cross my mind to change tanks as im not used to doing it. I can almost certainly say that had the radio not been screaming in my ears for the entire flight, i would have had much more concentration on vital differences that i need to check that aren't in the cessna. I did check tanks when down Lydd, i could see there was enough left for the return journey in the Left tank and i did notice it was less full than the right, however i remembered back to when i quizzed my instructor about this back in training when a Cessna was full one side and 4/5 full the other and he said it was because of un-even ground. I thought this about the PA28 and didnt think any more about it. A mistake that i will NEVER forget again! I used to forget carb heat checks as part of my FREDA, until the day that me and my instructor was up in cold moist air and suddenly from nowhere the engine started spluttering.. My instructor went straight for the carb heat without a second delay and resolved the problem. Since then i have NEVER forgotten a carb heat / icing check!